The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > General Discussion Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old June 12, 2009, 06:46 AM   #426
ilbert
Junior Member
 
Join Date: June 2, 2009
Posts: 7
I haven't said anything untoward that should elicit such effusive responses and now threat to remove me. If such is the level of permitted discussion here, then I will remove myself. I am sorry for causing you such consternation.
ilbert is offline  
Old June 12, 2009, 07:25 AM   #427
SwampYankee
Registration in progress
 
Join Date: November 1, 2008
Location: I can be found on a number of other forums.
Posts: 1,333
Anitpitas,

No I didn't buy anything because of Obama, in fact, I voted for him! I don't believe we will see any new gun control anytime soon and I think people who go out and buy $3000 of ammo just because it is there are foolish- that's exactly what a woman did at a local gun store just after Obama got elected, we're not even sure she owned a single gun.

About 2-3 months ago I was down to may last 300 SP primers. So I went online and tried to order more. I had no luck. It was a very unpleasant feeling to almost run out of primers and not be able to get more. So to prevent that unpleasant feeling from happening again, I bought about 6 times as many primers as I need in a year. And besides paying the hazmat and shipping more times than I would have liked, I didn't overpay on any of the items. If things had been in stock everywhere, I could have saved a few dollars by going through Grafs instead of Natchez, but I certainly don't feel ripped off.

I do feel as though I have given myself a comfortable margin, not that I am hoarding. But I guess its all a matter of degrees. If I had 50,000 primers, then maybe I would feel like I was hoarding? Or 100,000? Or not. Once I hit the 7,000 mark per primer type, I have stopped buying. Is that the behavior of a hoarder?

I know that there are hoarders and speculators out there, just check out Gunbroker. But my comment is directed a James R. Burke, and specifically, his keen ability to determine what hoarding is and is not.
SwampYankee is offline  
Old June 12, 2009, 07:59 AM   #428
Mike Irwin
Staff
 
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 36,074
Get off the cross, Ilbert. It's already occupied.

No one threatened to remove you from TFL, only messages that spread conspiracy hysteria. That applies to everyone who would choose to spread rumors of unfounded, unsupported political conspiracy while repeatedly ignoring statements from industry on the real reasons of these current shortages as well as the actions of we consumers that have contributed to this current situation.

You're bothered by "effusive" responses? Yeah, my response is really effusive... Try comprehensive. It gives you exactly what you say isn't available, statements from the industry as to why this is going on. You haven't said word one about the press release that I copied in, nor the one that I linked. What, still not enough for you?

Tell you what...

You stop with the BS conspiracy "It's Obama's personal fault" hysteria, and I'll stop being "effusive."
__________________
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza

Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.
Mike Irwin is offline  
Old June 12, 2009, 10:23 AM   #429
Unclenick
Staff
 
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 10,327
I don't know that hoarding is all bad. It depends on your timing as to whether it is unduely selfish or not? If you are hoarding during scarcity, then you are depriving others of access to whatever it is you hoard. That's selfish and maybe even anti-social. But if you do it during time of plenty, when nobody cares how much you buy and they are actually happy to unload their surpluses, then you actually help sellers out. Moreover, when a shortage comes up at some later date, you don't need to compete with other customers for scarce stock. That helps them out, too. I gues I'd call that prudent hoarding as opposed to selfish hoarding.

I've always bought primers in cases of 5,000 up at Camp Perry because there was always a price break involved in the past (though I don't know what's happening this year?). That's how I came to be sitting on 30,000 or so primers before the whole shortage came up. I don't see that as selfish hoarding because each case is a different primer and buying by the case was always my normal primer purchasing practice. As a result, though, I have had the luxury of not buying anything at all during the shortage. My prudent hoarding in advance of the shortage has left the current scarce stock available for the rest of you, in a kind of inside-out gesture of good will. Nor do I expect to need to buy more for another couple of years, by which time my stock will have been shot down to about 10%-20% of that original 30K.

In time of scarcity, free market economic forces would have prices rise until people stop buying more than they need. You see this in hurricane and flood-prone areas. During an emergency the local cost of everything from canned goods to gasoline goes up. The merchants then get accused of "gouging" or "profiteering", but practical experience shows that if they don't make those kinds of price increases, then the first customers in the door buy out their stock, leaving none for everyone else. That seems to be human nature, unfortunately.
__________________
Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member
CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor
NRA Certified Rifle Instructor
NRA Benefactor Member
Unclenick is offline  
Old June 12, 2009, 02:14 PM   #430
Levant
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 5, 2008
Posts: 182
Quote:
I gues [sic] I'd call that prudent hoarding as opposed to selfish hoarding.
That's called planning, not hoarding.
Levant is offline  
Old June 12, 2009, 08:19 PM   #431
iScream
Member
 
Join Date: August 25, 2008
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 89
Personally, I'm expecting a bit of a glut after all this. At some point, maybe not too long from now, the panic and nuttyness will stop but I expect the factories will still be at full bore, packing the supply lines. I wouldn't be surprised to even see a few sales on primers and such. Hopefully some of the speculators will decide to dump their garage full of stuff they don't even use too.

If it does happen, that's when I'll try to do a little stocking up for the future. At the moment, I have enough stuff to shoot 38 Special and 22LR weekly at a comfortable rate without having to buy anything for about 5 months.

I also wouldn't be surprised to see sales really die off for a while which will probably mean layoffs for some of those workers in the ammo factories.

-Chris
iScream is offline  
Old June 13, 2009, 06:44 AM   #432
hounddawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2009
Posts: 760
for whatever it is worth things do seem to be calming a bit. One of the local stores called me the other day to say they had small pistols in and sold me 300 to bring my supply now up to a little over 1000, got 2000 small pistol magnums in from a back order from Cabella's so I now have about 4K of them. Still have most (over 4K) of the large pistol magnums which are working fine for target loads in my .45 ACP. If I could get another 2K - 3K of the small pistols i would have plenty to last me a good year or more. I can still find .22LRs on the shelf pretty much anywhere except Walmart and even they are getting them in if you check once or twice a week.
__________________
Government is like a baby. An alimentary canal with a big appetite at one end and no sense of responsibility at the other. - Ronald Reagan
hounddawg is offline  
Old June 13, 2009, 02:47 PM   #433
James R. Burke
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 3, 2009
Location: U.P. of Mich/Quinnesec
Posts: 1,897
Swamp Yankee sorry if I came off the wrong way with you. You buy, and shoot whatever you want. I do not know what hoarding is for anybody but me. I know what I shoot, and what I need to feel comfortable. I am sure you are buying in the same way. How about the people who bought the large amounts to resell are they hoarding or just trying to make a fast buck? Its your call not mine. You buy what you want, and feel comfortable with. I also have alot of differnt types of powders for differnt rifles, and pistols. But I feel its what I need for what I am shooting. You could be correct, maybe you do know more about it. It could be 50,000 or 100,000, but maybe they are shooting that many. Who knows. Most folks on here I dont believe are hoarding or they would not be here. Sorry again Jim.

Last edited by James R. Burke; June 13, 2009 at 06:19 PM. Reason: Deleate and Add:
James R. Burke is offline  
Old June 14, 2009, 01:09 PM   #434
Unclenick
Staff
 
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 10,327
The following article from the online Rifleman showed up today. It fails to note that military production, while no greater, as it says, than 2007 or 2008, was high production those years. But otherwise, it is yet another look at high demand.

http://www.americanrifleman.org/ArticlePage.aspx?cid=24&id=1502
__________________
Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member
CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor
NRA Certified Rifle Instructor
NRA Benefactor Member
Unclenick is offline  
Old June 14, 2009, 01:43 PM   #435
James R. Burke
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 3, 2009
Location: U.P. of Mich/Quinnesec
Posts: 1,897
Thanks for the info!
James R. Burke is offline  
Old June 14, 2009, 02:44 PM   #436
Mike Irwin
Staff
 
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 36,074
My only comment on Mark's article is that military demand started going up significantly before 2007. We've been fighting a two-front war since 2003.

That helped take the "slack" out of the production system that was available to fill civilian demand. When civilian demand started to skyrocket? The slack that had been there was fulfilling military purchasing. No slack, huge civilian upramp in purchases equals shortages.
__________________
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza

Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.
Mike Irwin is offline  
Old June 15, 2009, 12:10 PM   #437
margiesex
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 5, 2009
Location: Levittown, PA
Posts: 210
What it's worth

To jump into the fray, I live in S. E. PA. Very populated - and a hop from Jersey. Basically whatever you want is gone. In the last 4-5 weeks I have seen 9's at Walmart once, and they are limiting you to 6 boxes of handgun ammo a day. The range where I shoot has some, but you pay, and you pay if you get my drift.

For handloading, I'm struggling like everyone else. I NEVER go to the range now and NOT have someone ask me about rolling their own (I love to talk about the hobby and try to get new people in it all the time) once they see what I'm shooting, or like what I let them shoot.

If the local store would not have gone out of business, I don't think it would be different. As early as last Oct. (08) they were starting to feel the belt tighten on components. When they went out of business, well frankly I bought all they had - and when the range got an unexpectly shipment - I got what I could.

I hope those who are saying it's all gonna go away and there will be sales, even, etc. are correct. However, I doubt it. I have had bullets on order from Midway since last December and the last time they would give me any information, there were over 250 orders for what I have on order - and that's 500 rounds.....so that's what? over 150,000 before they would even put them back on the "in stock" side? They must have a million (literally) on order if we are ever to see them again. (I'm speaking of Rem. 230 grain Golden Sabre's in .451) - none to be had.

Maybe I'm pessimistic, but I see it getting worse as the Dem.'s and Obama put the crunch to the gun owners and shooters. Truly hope I'm wrong.

Margiesex

Remember: Hug your God and your guns - 'cause he's coming for them both - and soon!
margiesex is offline  
Old June 15, 2009, 12:28 PM   #438
Levant
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 5, 2008
Posts: 182
Quote:
I hope those who are saying it's all gonna go away and there will be sales, even, etc. are correct. However, I doubt it. I have had bullets on order from Midway since last December and the last time they would give me any information, there were over 250 orders for what I have on order - and that's 500 rounds.....so that's what? over 150,000 before they would even put them back on the "in stock" side? They must have a million (literally) on order if we are ever to see them again. (I'm speaking of Rem. 230 grain Golden Sabre's in .451) - none to be had.

Maybe I'm pessimistic, but I see it getting worse as the Dem.'s and Obama put the crunch to the gun owners and shooters. Truly hope I'm wrong.
I thought that Walmart's limit of 6 was going to help things improve but it hasn't helped yet. I agree with Mike Irwin's (and the industry's) statements that the problem is caused by worried consumers and not by government or war. But, like you, I'm getting worried it isn't going to let up.

Keep a very close eye on any government healthcare laws and new government agencies. Lead poisoning continues to be a leading on-the-job health and injury risk to career criminals and I'm sure it will be addressed as a healthcare issue.
Levant is offline  
Old June 15, 2009, 03:03 PM   #439
fishman35
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 1, 2009
Posts: 8
No conspiracy, no politics, no crazy right-wing gun nut agenda.........I just want to shoot on a regular basis.

It just sucks when there is something you love to do, and am damn good at it, gets incredibly hard to do by no fault of your own. Kick me off this board if you wish for "bi*ching", but I am the kind of man who say "F-it, I will do it myself", and I usually can get around problems with other things.

But in this case, I cannot make the primer itself, and this is frustrates me to no end.

So until I can do what I love on a regular basis, I am going to be upset.
fishman35 is offline  
Old June 15, 2009, 03:39 PM   #440
Mike Irwin
Staff
 
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 36,074
Actually, you're far more likely to be kicked off the board for coming up wtih creative ways to get around the bad language filter...

I'd suggest not trying that in the future.
__________________
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza

Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.
Mike Irwin is offline  
Old June 16, 2009, 06:31 AM   #441
hounddawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2009
Posts: 760
Quote:

Maybe I'm pessimistic, but I see it getting worse as the Dem.'s and Obama put the crunch to the gun owners and shooters. Truly hope I'm wrong.
Don't take this the wrong way, but Obama and the Democrats ( I am a Libertarian and a Constitutionalist ) have not done anything to us. We have done this to ourselves with the paranoia which was fueled and is continuing to be fueled by people wanting to make a quick buck. All the while the ones gouging us on prices on Gunbroker, at gun shows, and the ethics challenged shop owners are just lapping it up. A few weeks ago I was in one gun shop and heard the owner telling some sap how all the ammo in SC will soon have to be registered. Here is where that bill really stands

http://http://www.scfirearms.org/AmmunitionAccountability.html

I will never buy anything at that shop again.
__________________
Government is like a baby. An alimentary canal with a big appetite at one end and no sense of responsibility at the other. - Ronald Reagan
hounddawg is offline  
Old June 16, 2009, 07:33 AM   #442
Uncle Billy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 10, 2009
Location: Small city in New York
Posts: 482
Took my flintlock Charleville musket replica to the range yesterday for a leisurely couple of hours trying to figure how to aim it (it has only a front sight). This is an ongoing project with little expectation of any success, but it's a lot of fun (noise, smoke, flash), and it's shooting a firearm. I've got a few flint guns, most of which I made from kits or Dixie Gun Works parts, which will be my focus until all the backorders get filled. Oh, and I was able to consistently hit a man-sized silhouette target in its middle at 50 yards before I quit.

So why not stand down from handloading cartridges for a while and instead handload the gun?
__________________
Despite the cost of living, have you noticed how popular it remains?
Uncle Billy is offline  
Old June 16, 2009, 09:17 PM   #443
Jekyll
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 27, 2009
Location: Easten PA
Posts: 277
I stopped in and visited a shop in S. MD. today. Last time I visited was 3 weeks ago and their ammo shelves were fairly bare, no primers and little powder. Today, the ammo shelves are full except for .45 ACP and all ammo is marked reasonably low such as $13 per 50 for 9mm. They now have small pistol and SP mag primers and about 20 types of powder in stock.

Maybe we are seeing a hint of light.
Jekyll is offline  
Old June 17, 2009, 07:06 AM   #444
SwampYankee
Registration in progress
 
Join Date: November 1, 2008
Location: I can be found on a number of other forums.
Posts: 1,333
Primers Still Available

It's been 2 days and Grafs still has MagTech SR and SPM primers in stock. They are only selling them in cases (5000 a pop), but they are there. It is the 2nd day that Natchez has had Federal SPM primers in stock. It looks to me like the insanity is coming to an end? A month ago both places would have sold out in an hour.

If you are a GunBroker profiteer, it might be time to do some cheap BuyItNows before you get stuck with a bunch of primers we can all get cheaper from a real retailer....
SwampYankee is offline  
Old June 17, 2009, 08:58 AM   #445
CowTowner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 17, 2007
Location: Cowtown of course!
Posts: 1,199
Quote:
If you are a GunBroker profiteer, it might be time to do some cheap BuyItNows before you get stuck with a bunch of primers we can all get cheaper from a real retailer....
Looks like someone paid attention. I see nothing but "out of stock" on Grafs' site.
__________________
NRA Chief Range Safety Officer, Home Firearm Safety and Pistol Instructor
"There are three classes of people: those who see, those who see when they are shown, those who do not see."
Leonardo da Vinci
CowTowner is offline  
Old June 17, 2009, 01:26 PM   #446
margiesex
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 5, 2009
Location: Levittown, PA
Posts: 210
Primers

As of this minute (2.24 PM) www.brunoshooters.com has in stock (according to the web page) Win. Large pistol primers and large rifle primers. Also, Federal small rifle match primers.

Good luck and go get 'em!!!

Margiesex

And remember: hug your God and your guns - 'cause he's coming for them both - and soon!
margiesex is offline  
Old June 17, 2009, 01:29 PM   #447
Unclenick
Staff
 
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 10,327
Natches is back to 209's only, too. But if it took them a couple of days rather than half an hour to an hour to sell out, that is one big improvement. Seen a couple of additional comments on other forums that some stores in the south aren't running out of shelf stock as rapidly as they were a month ago, either.
__________________
Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member
CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor
NRA Certified Rifle Instructor
NRA Benefactor Member
Unclenick is offline  
Old June 17, 2009, 01:31 PM   #448
benek
Member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2009
Posts: 26
thanks but too expensive - refuse to pay inflated prices.
natchez, for example, has kept their prices in the pre-hysterical days - i.e. between 26.00 and 29.00 / K
benek is offline  
Old June 17, 2009, 01:34 PM   #449
choicesmade24
Member
 
Join Date: December 22, 2008
Location: Midwest
Posts: 57
I am with you good looking out but I will do business with a company that will not gouge me.
choicesmade24 is offline  
Old June 17, 2009, 01:40 PM   #450
Unclenick
Staff
 
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 10,327
I know the high prices are an aggravation to we who are seasoned reloaders, but if it is the only thing that keeps at least a few primers available to beginners and those who got caught seriously short, I'd rather see those prices than see all of the stock go to into the hands of a small number of hoarders. Unfortunately, those seem to be the only two choices right now. Prices will come back down when supplies catch up.
__________________
Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member
CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor
NRA Certified Rifle Instructor
NRA Benefactor Member
Unclenick is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:04 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.18628 seconds with 8 queries