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Old March 4, 2009, 05:56 PM   #1
Ozzieman
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Professor Takes Heat for Calling Cops on Student Who Discussed Guns in Class

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,504524,00.html

This is where America is going with liberals teaching schools today.:barf:

A college teacher called the police on a student that gave a report on why guns should be allowed on campus.
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Old March 4, 2009, 06:07 PM   #2
Glenn E. Meyer
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Gee, maybe I should quit my job.

Also, please read my sig below for a more nuanced look at academics and shooting.

Did you know that quite a few academic support the RKBA or because one person acts like a butt then the gun world is going to end?

This should be hit as a drive - by but the comment on where America is going gives me an opening to comment on the defeatist attitude of so many in the gun world.

One teacher is nutty and that's where the whole country is going. Bury your guns and wait for the UN.

In fact, such a blatant violation of reasonable speech (if that is the case) will be GOOD for the cause. Trying to constrain speech usually brings out a strong rebuttal.

Colleges are very fearful of bad publicity, get the hint.
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Old March 4, 2009, 06:10 PM   #3
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Thanks for the info OZ.

As a university student I have often felt the opposition to concealed weapons from other students and professors. Most are abysmally ignorant and have not done any primary research to justify their claims. The ones who have tried to research the issue often rely on bias sources that protect their own preconceptions. I don't think that we pro 2nd amendment folks will ever be able to win over the academics to our side. They consider themselves too "refined" to even engage the question.
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Old March 4, 2009, 06:16 PM   #4
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Ahem - read my post. Just another quitter.
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Old March 4, 2009, 06:19 PM   #5
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I have sold 6 SIG rifles to a college Prof here in AK...he wears his Life member NRA hats to faculty meetings

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Old March 4, 2009, 06:27 PM   #6
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I know one who bought a 50 BMG. And have a cadre of professorial friends with ARs and Glocks and other things that go boom.

Guess what - my school actually sent me to LFI-1 and let me be a FOF roll play at the NTI - three times.

I took my advanced stat class to the range for an end of the class party and it was written up in the school paper.

The liberals are coming, the liberals are coming. They are taking away our guns and giving us "D's" on our report cards.

I'm done for the day - I have to grade exams on neurophysiology of vision. Then on Friday I might set up an IDPA match and shoot it on Sunday.

However, since I am 'refined' - I have to confess that at the last party I was in charge of the cheese plate and my theme was artisanal and blue.

We had a

Humboldt Fog
Maytag Blue
Extra Aged Appenzeller
Cashel Blue
Neal Yard's Cheddar.

So I am refined. Yesterday I drank red wine.

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Old March 4, 2009, 07:36 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer
Yesterday I drank red wine.
Cab or Pinot?
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Old March 4, 2009, 08:06 PM   #8
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Nice article Glen. I'm nearing the tail end of my college career at an über-liberal college (UW-Madison). It's nice to know that there are guys like you out there. If any of my profs have been pro-gun, they have kept it to themselves. I have had a few downright antis though.

As I was reading that news clip my mind drifted back to last semester.

Last semester I took an intro speech class (I had 3 credits to blow and decided on speech because I'm terrified of pubic speaking and needed the practice). It was a 100 level class full of mostly freshmen, so it was pretty laid back. We had to practice giving different types of speeches to the class. For the most part the subject matter didn't matter too much as the whole point of the class was the delivery of the speech and its general layout as opposed to the subject matter of the speech. So, for the most part, we got to choose our own subject matter.

For one of the speeches I got on my soapbox about a subject I am passionate about: guns. I lost the final draft, but I still have the rough copy on my hard drive. Keep in mind that this isn't word for word what came out of my mouth (and this is the rough draft), but a general direction that things went in.

Kind of scary to think that I could have had the cops called on me if I was in Anderson's class.

Quote:
Fire Extinguishers and Firearms

I am a fire extinguisher owner, like many Americans. When I tell somebody that I am also a firearms owner I am so often asked why I own firearms. However, I cannot recall a time when anybody has ever asked me why I own a fire extinguisher. I personally believe that if somebody can rationally explain to me why I should get rid of my fire extinguisher, I will gladly get rid of my guns.


First, I will explain my credentials for owning a fire extinguisher. I have absolutely no training in professional fire fighting. I respect the men and women who fight fires and put their lives on the line to save the rest of us. I know it’s a hard job and, just like any other profession, requires years of training to be able to do the job well. Firefighters are constantly learning new skills, keeping up on current firefighting techniques, and keeping in top physical shape. I, on the other hand, am overweight, know nothing of how to best keep flames under control, and have never had to put out a fire larger than a small grease flame-up I had on a stove once - it required only batting at with a dish towel. I have been trained how to operate a fire extinguisher on two separate occasions, both of which were required for my job as a nursing assistant. The training consisted of nothing more than some guy telling us to remember the acronym “PASS”, which stands for Pull the pin, Aim at the base of the flames, Squeeze the lever, and Sweep back and forth. Upon inspection of my fire extinguisher I noticed that, in case I forget how to use it, there are very clear directions written in both English and Spanish in large letters on the side as well as little pictures also explaining how to use it. Ultimately, what I intend to demonstrate is that even with my minimal firefighting knowledge, it is not only a good idea, but necessary for me to own a fire extinguisher.

I hope that an occasion that would cause me to have to use a fire extinguisher never arises. In a perfect world I wouldn’t need my extinguisher because there would be no tragic house fires. However, I realize that faulty electrical systems exist, lighting strikes happen in places you don’t want them to, and that accidents happen (particularly when I cook). I will take precautions against potential house fires by not letting my daughter play with matches, learning to make flaming cocktails outside, and making sure that my furnace is up to code. But, even with the best intentions, house fires still happen. Perhaps it could be one of my neighbors in my apartment complex that burns the whole place down, or it could be a lightning strike, or even an arsonist. All of these things are unpreventable by me taking safety precautions.

Does owning a fire extinguisher and knowing how to use one make me paranoid? No. Do I think there is an arsonist around every corner out to get me? No. We’ve all heard of tragic cases where college students our age were caught in house fires and were injured or died. Each death from house fires is tragic, and by no means do I wish to make light of anybody’s death or the pain and suffering that their friends and families go through. That said, the chances of dying in a house fire are 0.00151% for Americans. Does that mean that because the chances are so little I should throw away my fire extinguisher? I do not think so.

However, one could argue that, because fire extinguishers are dangerous, I should get rid of mine. They are very heavy objects and can be used in domestic violence crimes just like a baseball bat. They contain compressed chemicals that can turn into a bomb if heated to a certain temperature. CO2-based extinguishers can cause nasty burns if somebody should be sprayed with one because the gas is so cold. Yet, even though these dangers exist, I still keep my trusty little red fire extinguisher under my kitchen sink. Do I realize that when used incorrectly, my extinguisher, which I bought with only good intentions in mind, can be used for harm - particularly if my 2-year-old daughter were to get a hold of it? Yes, I do realize this. My daughter is not yet old enough to understand how to use a fire extinguisher. When she is ready to learn I will teach her how to use one so she can protect herself against house fires. One could argue that my daughter gives me even more reason to keep a fire extinguisher in the house. I would never want her to be hurt with an extinguisher, but I think the benefits of having one in my home outweigh the risks in this situation.

Another point about fires and fire extinguishers is that one could say that they are unnecessary in non-professional hands. We have fire departments and trained professionals on call 24 hours a day, seven days a week. They have much more sophisticated equipment than my fire extinguisher and they know how to use it. They are just a phone call away whenever I need them and their telephone number is extremely easy to remember. Why should I try and put out a fire when they are obviously better trained to do so? First, in the event of a small fire (for example, a grease fire on a stove), I would shut the stove off, grab my fire extinguisher and try to put out the fire myself. I wouldn’t call 9-1-1 right away because I would be too busy using my fire extinguisher. If it worked, great, there would be no need for me to call 9-1-1. If I had called 9-1-1 right away the fire would have gotten larger and probably unmanageable for just my little extinguisher. The fire would have grown to much larger proportions and perhaps endangered my life and the lives of everybody else in my apartment complex. If I was unable to put the fire out myself I would get on my cell phone and call 9-1-1 right away, get out of the apartment, and alert my neighbors in my apartment complex to do the same. We, as an intelligent and informed society, definitely have a need for firefighters, but we also have a need for non-firefighters to have fire extinguishers in their homes and have some basic knowledge of how to use them properly.

All of this information on fire extinguishers can easily be compared to another tool for protection: firearms. To some, even the word firearm or gun itself is scary. But to others a gun means protection just like a fire extinguisher does. For the sake of convenience we will leave out the discussions about guns that encompass things like hunting, target shooting, and sport shooting, as well as the discussion of whether the second amendment applies to militias only or is an individual right. I will focus solely on owning guns for self defense purposes.

Firstly, my credentials for owning a firearm are not anywhere close to those who serve in the military and members of law enforcement have. But I have passed a hunter safety course when I was 12 years old (and I passed with flying colors). For those of you who haven’t taken hunter’s safety, failing that class has got to be harder than failing Pencil Sharpening 101. Outside of that class, the firearm training I received started from a very young age. Just like all parents teach their children not to play with matches, I was taught the basics of firearm safety. There was a constant teaching going on in my childhood. When I saw a firearm being improperly handled on television or in a movie my dad (who was my main teacher when it came to guns) would explain to me what was being done wrong and how the gun should have been handled. I was taught that if I ever saw anybody handling a gun like that to call the police immediately. The most important thing my dad taught me was the four cardinal rules of safe firearm handling: 1) always treat every gun as if it were loaded, 2) always keep the gun pointed in a safe direction, 3) keep your finger off of the trigger and out of the trigger guard until you are ready to shoot, and 4) be sure of your target and what is beyond. Even though my training in firearms is not even close to what law enforcement has, I still own a gun. I know that it is simply not possible for the police to protect everyone from criminals all of the time, just like it is not possible for firefighters to protect every person against house fires all of the time.

I learned to shoot when I was 8 years old and developed a fondness for the sport. I was always supervised by my dad, all of the guns were kept locked in gun safes in an inoperable condition, ammunition was stored separately from the guns in a locked box, and there was always a trigger lock on every gun whether it could fire or not. It was made very clear to me that if I ever once handled a gun in an unsafe manner either on or off the range, with malicious intent or by stupidity, my shooting days would be over, no discussion. I also learned that there are no shooting accidents. Every time that somebody has been hurt with a gun, somebody has either had malicious intent or one of the four cardinal rules was ignored or broken. There is no excuse for breaking any one of these four rules and ignorance and stupidity are not excuses.

When it comes to self-defense, I hope that I never have to use a gun to defend myself, my family, or anybody. When confronted with a situation like a mugging or rape, I would much rather run away and have the police deal with it. But, sometimes the police can’t get to the scene of a crime fast enough. Take for example the murder of so many at Virginia Tech or even one of the many murders that has occurred in our own city of Madison within the last year; the police came in all of those situations, but by the time they got there it was too late. The loss of innocent lives had already happened and the police were left with trying to put together the pieces and attempt to find a way to prevent this kind of crime in the future. Just like if I were to use my little fire extinguisher to put out a grease fire that would have burned my apartment down had I waited for firemen to arrive, I can use my gun to help stop a rapist, robber, or other criminal from taking my life, my daughter’s life, or the life of anybody else that I am with.

When it comes to violet crime, I take precautions. I don’t get drunk and go home with random people I just met, I am careful about where and when I walk alone, I lock my doors at night. I do these things for the same reason I teach my daughter not to play with matches, make sure my furnace is up to code, and learn to make flaming cocktails outside: prevention is better than having to make that call to 9-1-1. Does owning a firearm and knowing how to use it make me paranoid? It makes me no more paranoid than anybody who owns a fire extinguisher. Do I expect a robber or rapist around every corner? No. The chances of me, an American woman, being the victim of a violent crime are "insert number here%". That means that a majority of women are not the victims of violent crimes. But that number is a whole lot more than number of people who are the victims of house fires, and just think of the number of people who think that those odds necessitate keeping a fire extinguisher at home. By the same rationale, I keep firearms in my home. I do so legally and safely. I have no delusions of having an action movie scene happen in my home, just like people who own fire extinguishers don’t have delusions of running into a burning building like a movie star and rescuing 4 kids (and a really cute puppy).

In conclusion, if somebody can give me a rational reason that I should get rid of my fire extinguisher, I will be more than happy to get rid of my guns. Until then, I will continue to own guns and still lead a normal, non-paranoid lifestyle. However, I will be reassured that in the event of a grease fire in my kitchen or an act of violence that threatens my life, I will at least have a chance while I wait for emergency services to arrive and provide professional assistance.

Last edited by chemgirlie; March 5, 2009 at 01:57 AM. Reason: typo
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Old March 5, 2009, 12:41 AM   #9
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Chemgirlie -
Bravo!! Ole!! What a great speach/article! Most excellent! Right this moment, you are my hero! This work must be published. Send it to your local newspaper. How about the "pink" website, Pax? You have explained things in a wonderful, down to earth way. I don't know that it will enlighten the anti's, but it sure could open some minds among the disinterested or leary peoples. I know you said that the subject matter didn't matter for this assignment, but surely you got feedback from some of your classmates. Did any of them talk to you about the subject later? Again, congratulations! A+ on (written) delivery, structure, and content!
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Old March 5, 2009, 01:37 AM   #10
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I do wish I still had the final draft. I see at the point that I wrote it I hadn't filled in the final draft stats (there was an "insert % here"). I had a bit of an issue where I accidentally deleted the wrong file (oops). But, I suppose I can go back and re-clean it up.

I tried to keep away from the "it's our right" argument, as I think that one's been beat to death already (not that I'm opposed to beating it more though). The bit that lists the 4 rules could have been left out, but I kind of felt like I had a responsibility to say them due to the fact that many of my classmates had never heard of them, let alone knew what they are.

There was a q/a session afterwards that was supposed to be feedback on how you presented/possible improvements/etc, but it ended up being mostly commentary on gun control. As I expected most of the class was on the Brady side of things. But, thankfully most were willing to at least give the other side a listen. My prof stayed pretty neutral on everything (thank goodness).

I did have some people stay after class and do a laid back mini-debate and talk about some points about gun control and self defense. Some had questions about guns and some had questions about gun policies. I had one guy ask me "does a gun go off if you drop it?" and another who thought bullets exploded like a little bomb.

I'm pretty open to fielding questions from anybody about anything (and quite enjoy teaching people about guns), and there was no shortage of them afterwards.
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Old March 5, 2009, 02:40 AM   #11
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I think the prof in question is probably one of two things:

1) Just someone who felt that it was worth a phone call to have PD talk to those folks and make sure they were on the up and up. If they are, no harm done. If they aren't, well, let the police handle it.

OR

2) Someone who is so uneducated (or miseducated) regarding guns, gun culture, and the right to self defense that she got scared at the mere mention of guns in her classroom.

Notice that I do not think that she is actively anti. If she were, she would be smarter than to try to make an issue out of this. Most professors are familiar with the Bill of Rights, especially that important 1A, no?

Furthermore, it was her own assignment that brought up the topic. She's smarter than to try to use this as some sort of "Aha! Caught you discussing guns!" moment.

No, she was probably just being careful. I'm in transportation (charter buses) and DHS (Dept. Homeland Security) even has a program for us so that we can report suspicious activity we may see as we drive around (the most suspicious thing I've ever seen was me buying a six-pack for later consumption!). I'm quite sure schools and colleges have a similar program.

Post 9/11, post VT, post NIU, post UCA, ad nauseam; each time this happens they get a little more sensitive. At this point, even the mention of guns in these places makes folks uncomfortable. It's becoming like California.
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Old March 5, 2009, 07:56 AM   #12
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Quote:
This is where America is going with liberals teaching schools today.
It is hard to blame the liberals for taking such jobs when so many conservatives don't want them. Sure, there are some, but far too few.

As for the article, the professor doesn't appear to be taking too much heat at all. It appears that all that has happened is that a 3rd party organization (FIRE) is speaking out against the professor. It isn't like the professor is being investigated by the university for inappropriate behavior or anything like that.
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Old March 5, 2009, 09:20 AM   #13
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This is where America is going with liberals teaching schools today.
Liberals are the public schools and have been for years while of course we have some conservative teachers they must conform or be beat down. Much of the problems we face today in society can be attributed to the public school liberal agenda of the past 30 years.
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Old March 5, 2009, 10:44 AM   #14
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Let's just give up on the RKBA because a teacher said something stupid.

And the college didn't do XY or Z - so make a fuss.

Or give up and bury your guns.

BTW, I was going to add that a few years, I did a study that found that the % of college profs having concealed carry permits in Oregon and TX schools was comparable to the general population.

Also, academics like Lott and Kleck are the mainstays of the research support for the utility of firearms ownership. I have a shelf full of reasoned pro-gun books by academics. Bellesiles crappy book was taken down by Cramer and then by academics. Academic women have written major works supporting the linkage of firearms and women (unlike some of our membership here).

How did all this happen?
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Old March 5, 2009, 11:54 AM   #15
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Quote:
Let's just give up on the RKBA because a teacher said something stupid.

And the college didn't do XY or Z - so make a fuss.

Or give up and bury your guns.
I hope you're not referring to my post in your response, Glenn.

I strongly believe that, like almost anything, attitudes can be changed with education, immersion, and mentoring. The antis and ignorant rule the roost when it comes to gun 'education' and most of what makes it into the media and entertainment. They put ads on buses, bus shelters, and billboards. They've got Hollywood so far up - well, let's just say they're wrapped around their fingers.

What do we have? Sure, I try to be an ambassador, but my reach is very limited. We have no ads, and no TV. How do we reach the masses with the responsible gun owner message?

I'm quite sure, neighbor, that you are more knowledgeable regarding this than me. Have the NRA/GOA/TSRA/others run any major public information campaigns? If so, what were the results and reactions?

For the record, I am not being confrontational. I always try to word my posts as carefully as possible since text lacks tone and such and can be misunderstood.
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Old March 5, 2009, 12:05 PM   #16
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No, not you, theotherTexasRich. I was just commenting on the throw-away earlier lines that overgeneralized about academics. Sorry, if I came across as cranky. I sometimes get discouraged by some gun forum rhetoric. Something negative happens and it is the end of the world. On about 4 different places, I frequent somebody says - See, there's no hope for colleges!!

All because of one story. How about - look at that - let's see if we can change attitudes. Other advocacy groups get their position attacked and they don't give up and declare their cause hopeless.

As far as the NRA - they had and have fine directors of research. They attend academic conferences like the American Society for Criminology and engage crappy antigun presentations.

They have helped me in some of my work.
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Old March 5, 2009, 07:58 PM   #17
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Has anyone ever stopped to think that perhaps proportions of anti- college professors may vary depending on the area? For example, I'd expect to find more anti's at Berkeley than I would at Texas A&M. Seems to me that the colleges that get the most exposure are often in "Blue" states like California or Massachussetts and thusly their liberal faculty get more exposure and contribute to the stereotype.
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Old March 5, 2009, 08:13 PM   #18
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Quote:
Has anyone ever stopped to think that perhaps proportions of anti- college professors may vary depending on the area? For example, I'd expect to find more anti's at Berkeley than I would at Texas A&M. Seems to me that the colleges that get the most exposure are often in "Blue" states like California or Massachussetts and thusly their liberal faculty get more exposure and contribute to the stereotype.
Indeed I have noticed this. Some of my friends who go to smaller private colleges have talked about having more conservative profs. I'm at Madison, which is known for a couple of things: a tendency to party hard and having more liberals than you can shake a stick at.
I ended up going here because Madison is the only university in WI that offers my major and out of state tuition was scary. Yeah, I could have gone to MN (they have tuition reciprocity with WI), but being raised a badger, I just couldn't bring myself to do it.
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Old March 5, 2009, 10:21 PM   #19
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Political leanings can also vary greatly by department. I found that business departments tend to have a greater concentration of conservatives than say sociology or biology.
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Old March 5, 2009, 11:01 PM   #20
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I agree with Double Naught Spy, a difference in department or major often can mean a difference in the views of the majority of the individuals. Reminds me of a discussion section I had for an Engineering and the Environment class, it was a core class that was mainly full of undecided majors that were in the class for the environment part, where I was outnumbered about 20 to 1 when it came to my stance on gun rights and guns in general. I was all but crucified one day when we had to rate a list of items from the most dangerous to the least dangerous in which handguns were included and ended up in the top three on 90% of the lists. It amazed me how uneducated and ridiculous some of the statements that were made were. There was actually a group of people that thought police officers should not be allowed to carry while on duty.
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Old March 5, 2009, 11:49 PM   #21
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That is kind of funny. In my criminal law class a student used as an example a person with a concealed pistol license at school in their scenario. Before adressing his scenario she made it a point to tell the whole class "let me tell you, there is nothing so scary that you need to bring a gun to school". That had me laughing(after class or course, I want a good grade). It all depends where you are at though. The majority of colleges in my area are going to be anti. Thank god there are a few holdouts though.
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Old March 7, 2009, 02:49 PM   #22
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Just curious...

Calling the police because some students were talking about guns (as part of a class assignment!)

Wouldn't this be under the category of filing a false police report? Probably not, as the prof apparently thought something dangerous was going on, BUT if it does, want to bet the prof doesn't get the same treatment as any other "false report" case?

I'm not going to bemoan the overall quality of our system, based on this one individual example (I have plenty of others for that), but it is a sad thing that someone who apparently has such a fragile grip on reality is in a position of teaching.
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Old March 7, 2009, 11:12 PM   #23
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Quote:
Calling the police because some students were talking about guns (as part of a class assignment!)

Wouldn't this be under the category of filing a false police report? Probably not, as the prof apparently thought something dangerous was going on, BUT if it does, want to bet the prof doesn't get the same treatment as any other "false report" case?
More than likely, the prof reported to the police about a potentially troubled student, accurate or not, but that may actually have been the prof's view of the situation.

The report was to the university police. Given that the call was from a faculty member and the fact that the university police probably have plenty of free time, they followed through much more thoroughly than would happen outside of the university environment.

I am not defending the prof or the police in any way. I don't know what was actually said in the student's talk. It is possible that the student said things in the context of a RKBA talk that went well beyond RKBAs. It is also possible the prof is a loon. I dunno.
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Old March 7, 2009, 11:41 PM   #24
chemgirlie
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I'd be leery of punishing somebody for calling the cops if they truly thought something was wrong. I do think that this prof needs a bit of re-education herself though (or perhaps she never read the bill of rights).
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Old March 8, 2009, 12:18 PM   #25
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Ah, I misunderstood.

I doubt seriously that university police will charge a professor, for anything less than a blatant crime. Nothing against them, but that is the way the world works.

Some of you college folks, refresh my memory, please. In the event of an actual crime, wouldn't campus police just hold the suspect for the local police to arrest and charge? Or do they have the authority to do that on their own?

In a situation such as this one, if the university police don't press any charges, I would imagine the local police wouldn't have much interest in it?
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