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Old March 16, 2009, 07:18 PM   #1
Deaf Smith
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For those who think sighted fire won't work at close range

From John Farnam.

http://www.defense-training.com/quips/10Mar09.html

10 Mar 09

A student emerges victorious from a dangerous confrontation:

"Back in 2000, you provided handgun training to a large class, including me. I had been a target competitor for many years, but your class changed my paradigm to serious, tactical application, rather than casual recreation. Two things stuck with me most: (1) Spin your OODA Loop quickly, and (2) when a fight is unavoidable, be stitching and moving!

Thank you! That philosophical shift saved my life this last February!

Late on a weekday afternoon last month, two home-invasion suspects kicked in the front door of my home, as I sat watching television. I was alone in the house at the time. There was no warning, nor did I have any reason to suspect such a thing would happen to me that day, or any day. I remember being astonished as I saw the bottom of a foot still raised as my door lurched open, amid a shower of splinters!

The door-kicker, and an accomplice, burst in, and, seeing me, rushed toward me. I was wearing my G38 (45GAP) in a Comp-Tac holster. It was loaded with WW 230gr Ranger ammunition. I sprung to my feet and drew my pistol simultaneously. At a distance of less than eight feet, I found my front sight and began firing at the closest suspect, while I was still in motion.

As it turns out, I fired seven shots. All seven struck the first suspect (the door-kicker). His accomplice was behind him and immediately fled, unharmed as far as I know. In fact, he fled in such haste that he abandoned his getaway car, leaving the engine running! Police subsequently found much stolen property in the car.

The suspect I shot stumbled backward and fell in the doorway, never moving after he went down. I scanned, reloaded, took cover behind a corner, and checked myself over. When police arrived, they found the suspect I had shot, DRT. The second suspect has not been arrested as far as I know. I was unhurt.

Of the seven hits on the first suspect, one in the neck and one in the chest proved fatal. I was told that either of those two shots would probably have been fatal by itself. Being cold at the time, both suspects were wearing heavy clothing, and multiple layers of clothing frustrated expansion, and penetration, of the other five. They may have been effective, but I'll never know.

Here is what others among your students can learn from my experience:

(1) When at home, stay armed! If my gun had been locked in a safe, or even in a drawer and unloaded, I never could have reacted effectively in time. Be armed all the time, no matter where you are!

(2) Multiple shots from your pistol will probably be necessary to stop any fight decisively, no matter what caliber or brand of ammunition you're using. As a category, pistols are poor fight-stoppers. Accordingly, pistols that hold lots of ammunition, and that can be reloaded quickly, represent a real advantage!

(3) Be prepared to react instantly! Sometimes, there are warning signs. Sometimes, there are none! In order to live through your next lethal encounter, you'll have to be able to spin your OODA Loop fast.

(4) Finish the fight! Don't relax too soon. Scan, reload, get distance, get cover. Be prepared for anything!

(5) Whatever you do, it won't be perfect! Don't worry about being perfect. Just act decisively, without hesitation. Do what has to be done, with grace and enthusiasm. Don't look back, and don't worry about what might have been!"

Comment: I'll add:

(5) Use ammunition that penetrates adequately! Your bullets may have to plow through many layers of clothing before ever reaching flesh, as was the case here. There are many fine, high-performance rounds available, but Cor-Bon DPX tops the list, because it penetrates and expands, without fail! It's what I carry.

My student is a real hero. He dared, and he won.

Victory!

/John
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Old March 16, 2009, 08:46 PM   #2
The Great Mahoo
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Wow, simply amazing.

Good to see things worked out for our friend here. Not as good as not happening at all, of course, but a lot better than it could have.

+1 to the good guys.
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Old March 16, 2009, 09:15 PM   #3
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"(1) When at home, stay armed! If my gun had been locked in a safe, or even in a drawer and unloaded, I never could have reacted effectively in time. Be armed all the time, no matter where you are!"

AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! It keeps the kids away from the loaded firearm as well.

"What are you afraid of that you carry a gun every where?"

"I'm not afraid. I have a gun!"
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Old March 16, 2009, 09:59 PM   #4
David Armstrong
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I'm a bit confused. Who are these people who think sighted fire won't work at close range? AFAIK, most everyone supporting target-focused shooting always says to use the sights whenever you can, close or far, and use target focus when you can't use the sights.

Last edited by David Armstrong; March 16, 2009 at 10:08 PM.
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Old March 17, 2009, 12:32 AM   #5
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Great story. Rele shows the need to carry around the house.

Quote:
I'm a bit confused.
Wouldn't be the first time
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Old March 17, 2009, 12:41 AM   #6
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Quote:
Be armed all the time, no matter where you are!
Heeeeeeeeeeeeere we go again....

WildbunsofpolymerAlaska TM
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Old March 17, 2009, 06:14 AM   #7
matthew temkin
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Thank you, Dave, for stating the obvious.
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Old March 17, 2009, 10:24 AM   #8
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Quote:
Heeeeeeeeeeeeere we go again....

WildbunsofpolymerAlaska TM
Still tightly clenched? Good.
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Old March 17, 2009, 10:28 AM   #9
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Those boys picked the wrong house, didn't they.
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Old March 17, 2009, 10:31 AM   #10
David Armstrong
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Wouldn't be the first time
True. People frequently make claims and statements that either don't agree with the facts, or try to establish problems that don't exist or similar silliness. That always confuses me.
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Old March 17, 2009, 12:06 PM   #11
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Quote:
I'm a bit confused. Who are these people who think sighted fire won't work at close range?
+1 on that.

I've never heaard anyone in TFL say sighted fire won't work at close range. What HAS been said is you may not HAVE TIME for sighted fire and you should practice "point and shoot", too.

A BG can cover 20 feet in less than two seconds. Draw, sight and fire in that time? Try it.
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Old March 17, 2009, 12:09 PM   #12
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different trainers are tripping over each other trying to get credit for having trained this guy to carry at home, gotx, shootem to the ground, etc. pretty comical to read some of what they write.
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Old March 17, 2009, 01:44 PM   #13
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Quote:
A BG can cover 20 feet in less than two seconds. Draw, sight and fire in that time? Try it.
Actually, it's not that hard. There is a training technique called the "progressive draw drill" which is a great way to increase your draw-to-shot time. While I'm by no means a top level competitive shooter, I can draw, get the front sight, and have a my first round downrange in a little under a second using a Serpa holster, and a little faster when I use a holster without the Serpa lock. Sighted fire at short ranges in small amounts of time is simply a matter of training and practice, as was aptly demonstrated by the referenced story from Mr. Farnam's student.
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Old March 17, 2009, 02:09 PM   #14
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Those boys picked the wrong house, didn't they.
Asssuming it even happened

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Old March 17, 2009, 02:11 PM   #15
Mr. Davis
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Good point, WildAlaska. Is there other information out there corroborating this story?
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Old March 17, 2009, 02:28 PM   #16
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Great for the GG to win. Which news chanel can I check out the full story on? I'm interested to see if the GG, the shooter has ant problems, I read a post earlier on when its ok to shoot (and what trouble (legal) you might get into?

Or is it just an advert for a tactical training school?
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Old March 17, 2009, 02:50 PM   #17
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Quote:
(1) When at home, stay armed!
I concur. Maybe you should have titled the thread: For those that think being armed at home is paranoia.
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Old March 17, 2009, 02:54 PM   #18
Wildalaska
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Quote:
Maybe you should have titled the thread: For those that think being armed at home is paranoia.


So I, as a seller of head mounted lightning rods, should post a story about a man who survived a strike 'cuz he was wearing one, with the title being:

For Those Who Think Wearing a Lightning Rod on their Head is Paranoid?

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Old March 17, 2009, 03:01 PM   #19
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WildiknewitweareoffandrunninghereAlaska
Yeah, you get a gold star.
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Old March 17, 2009, 03:29 PM   #20
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Well, there were really two options for this thread, which were either "carry at home all the time" or "aimed-fired vs. point-shooting". I'd have preferred the latter, but that's only because the aimed-vs-point shooting debate roflols my copters.
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Old March 17, 2009, 04:23 PM   #21
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Quote:
A BG can cover 20 feet in less than two seconds. Draw, sight and fire in that time? Try it.
Yeah, but he has to know where he is going, first. A guy kicking in your door that doesn't know the layout of your home and furniture is going to be slowed down quite a bit by his attempts at identifying what is in the room in order to navigate, identifying threats, and deciding on a course of action.

Quote:
Actually, it's not that hard. There is a training technique called the "progressive draw drill" which is a great way to increase your draw-to-shot time. While I'm by no means a top level competitive shooter, I can draw, get the front sight, and have a my first round downrange in a little under a second using a Serpa holster, and a little faster when I use a holster without the Serpa lock. Sighted fire at short ranges in small amounts of time is simply a matter of training and practice, as was aptly demonstrated by the referenced story from Mr. Farnam's student.
Uh huh. Draw and with sighted fire hit a target at what distance in under a second? That is a full half second faster than what Farnum considers to be a good draw time...

Quote:
A good draw time for this is in the 1.5 second range, ...
Of course, that is being ready to fire and knowing what your target is and having made the decision to fire before the drill ever starts. Things don't usually work that way in real life, when you are sitting in your living room, watching TV.

Let's see, for the average human adult, it takes 0.20 seconds for the brain to process the stimulus indicated the "go" signal and for the signal to be sent for the hand to start moving. So in less than 0.80 seconds, you are able complete all the movements required for drawing, sighting, and firing your gun? That is extremely impressive, especially for a person that isn't a top level shooter. The only folks I ever see doing that, that ever hit anything, are the ones with the fancy race holsters.

Contrary to Mr. Farnum, just because you blow the draw does not mean that you should end up blowing the string.
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Old March 17, 2009, 06:03 PM   #22
Tom Givens
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Lilburn, Georgia

From WTVM of February 27, 2009
Lilburn homeowner shoots, kills intruder at door

The Gwinnett County police say a homeowner shot and killed 1 of the intruders when two men kicked in his front door.

The incident happened shortly after 5 p.m. Friday when the men knocked at the door and when no one answered, kicked it in.

Police spokeswoman Illana Spellman said the resident fired, striking and killing one in the doorway. She said the second man ran away and police using search dogs were unable to find the man.

No charges have been filed in the incident
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Old March 17, 2009, 06:44 PM   #23
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DNS, I never said that it was easy, just that it takes training and practice. My fasted draw and shot combo in practice was 0.98, but as these things often go, no one was there to see it - just me and my CED7000. In dry fire practice, I did one once in about 0.6 seconds, but that's just dry fire.

The point though is that while difficult, speed is often just a factor of training. If the average guy with a little practice can draw from an unconcealed holster in 1.5 seconds, then with even more practice all they're going to do is get faster.
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Old March 17, 2009, 07:07 PM   #24
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I never said it was easy either. However, what YOU said was...

Quote:
Actually, it's not that hard.
Not that hard sounds like it is either easy or middle of the road difficult, but certainly "not that hard".

Quote:
The point though is that while difficult, speed is often just a factor of training.
So now we go from "not that hard" to being "difficult."

Got it. I am starting to understand the backpeddling. It isn't that you can do it, but you have done it in the past. Got it.

We are all very good when we dry fire.
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Old March 17, 2009, 07:11 PM   #25
Deaf Smith
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http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/met...ots.html?imw=Y

http://www.learnaboutguns.com/2009/0...-self-defense/

I just wish they hadn't published the street number (but then, who want's to mess with him anyway, right?)

There are many things to learn from this incident.

1) A gun in the hand beats 10 in the bedroom.

2) Even are extreme close range, if you keep your wits you can use your sights (100 percent hit rate ain't bad.) And even if you can't see them, bring the weapon up to the same place AS IF YOU CAN SEE THEM will work well at such close range.

3) Do something the BG does not expect (and a hail of gunfire is something they don't expect.)

4) Notice he scanned, reloaded, and took cover AFTER the BG was DRT. That was training, not just plinking on the range.

5) Note he fired 7 rounds. His Glock 38 holds, fully loaded, 9. He almost emptied it. What would have happend if the other BG still tried to take him? The old saying, "it's better to have and not need...." comes in here. Remember it.

6) Notice most of the JHPs didn't expand. Don't count on the 'magic bullet'. Count on shot placement (and pray the bullet does expand, as advertized.)

7) Improvise! Adapt! Overcome! But don't just sit there dumbfounded.
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