The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old March 15, 2009, 02:20 PM   #26
justinicus
Member
 
Join Date: April 9, 2002
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 35
for what it's worth...

My ex was something like that. More communicative about it, though. It just boiled down to the fact that she was afraid of guns. Similar to a previous post, she would rather be victimized (though not raped/beaten) than defend herself. I was able to get her to carry pepper spray, but beyond that, she truly believed she could not shoot another person, no matter what. I believe she would use pepper spray against a rapist, but while she wouldn't admit it, she was afraid of that too.

Being mugged at knife point didn't change her perspective at all. I got her to shoot my 1911 a couple times, and she was actually quite a good shot. No problem at all hitting the bulls-eye at 5yds, from her very first shot on. But she would NEVER let me load more than one round in the mag. The idea of confronting her fear and taking responsibility for her own safety was absurd. That's what we pay the police for, she believed. Some people truly are sheep, I guess.

-Justin
__________________
For what avail the plough or sail, or land or life, if freedom fail? ~Ralph Waldo Emerson
justinicus is offline  
Old March 15, 2009, 02:38 PM   #27
pax
Staff
 
Join Date: May 16, 2000
Location: Washington state
Posts: 6,983
Quote:
The idea of confronting her fear ...
Yeah, that one strikes a chord.

One woman I know (close relative) is terrified of firearms, and has been ever since she & her boyfriend were mugged 15 years ago. She's steadfastly refused to face that fear, never has talked about it. She'll talk about everything else in the entire world, but that fear and that subject are entirely off limits. I've watched over the years as her fear has gotten bigger and bigger and more powerful, like a smoldering cigarette stuck under a mattress that eventually flames into a huge out of control conflagration that burns down an entire neighborhood. It's ... there are no words to describe how sad it is to watch, or how frustrating it is to see it happening while being powerless to prevent it. All my words, all anyone's words, are meaningless against her fear. If she'd confronted it early, before it started to grow ... but she didn't. She piled fuel on top of it, and thought she was hiding it, when all she was doing was setting the stage for it to take over her life.

She broke her ankle last year, leaping wildly out of bed in the throes of a nightmare. She blames the gun that was in her dream...



pax
__________________
Kathy Jackson
My personal website: Cornered Cat
pax is offline  
Old March 15, 2009, 02:58 PM   #28
Agent_of_Empire
Junior Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2009
Posts: 4
Your wife seems to be comfortable around firearms but I think a bigger issue here is the reason to have her carry a weapon around the house.

There is a huge psychological step that you have to take before you can shoot another human being - you can't coerce her to take that step it is something she will become comfortable with (or accept). Do you really want her to point a loaded weapon at someone, **** him off, and not have the ability to pull the trigger?

My wife will throw things at an attacker, but the reality of a gun is that it is a tool used for killing. You aren't going to aim at a leg in the heat of a moment, you put rounds center mass. You kill people. My wife is not comfortable with that.

I am writing from Iraq now, so if she has a problem I just have enough faith that our deterrents will hold but you just accept some risk.

And there honestly isn't a door that will hold a determined attacker. Deter, yes. I also assume you have windows though... we can play out los of outlandish scenarios... Make yourself a hard target, understand how to defend yourself, accept risk that you choose not to mitigate.
Agent_of_Empire is offline  
Old March 15, 2009, 03:56 PM   #29
rantingredneck
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 12, 2007
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 4,728
Good stuff as always Pax.

I totally agree with this and this is pretty much where I am and have been for about a year or so. I stopped the gentle prodding to take the CC course. She really dug her heels in on that one. I was hoping that she and her friend would take the course together but that's not likely any longer.

I'll keep plodding along and beefing up the passive defenses. She went with me to Lowe's last night to pick up the bracebars. She thought it was a good idea and even mentioned that they'd be handy to take along for travel/hotels and such.

She's cool with me carrying, and actually feels safer (so she says) for the fact that I do. And I do carry EVERYWHERE that it's legal to do so. To the point of finding a postoffice with on street parking nearby and parking across the street from my daughter's school (at my church) so as not to have to leave it at home.

I looked at some additional lighting options last night too and will be upgrading/installing some new stuff soon. She is very good about keeping deadbolts locked and the flip latches we have up high on the door (forgot to mention those in the OP). Hopefully she'll use the brace bars regularly when I'm not home too. We've only had the alarm system for a few months, but she's been religious about keeping the perimeter sensors alarmed when we are home.

Thanks for everyone's input, and particular thanks to Pax.

Any additional passive security layers anyone can think of, throw them out there. Can't hurt to have too many layers. (Moats, alligators, etc.) Just kidding there of course............maybe........
__________________
NRA Member
NC Hunter's Education Instructor

PCCA Member (What's PCCA you ask? <- Check the link)

Last edited by rantingredneck; March 15, 2009 at 06:14 PM.
rantingredneck is offline  
Old March 16, 2009, 01:36 PM   #30
ttman
Member
 
Join Date: December 17, 2001
Posts: 58
dead bolts don't really do anything. the average home has wood frames around the doors. a swift drop kick will rip the door from the frame.
ttman is offline  
Old March 16, 2009, 03:10 PM   #31
dabigguns357
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 3, 2008
Location: Ona,West Virginia
Posts: 1,215
My home security goes like this.
1/Cars always locked with alarms on them now.
2/front porch light on at all times
3/solid wood door,deadbolt's,and chain lock at the top so the kids don't get out.
4/ 6 night vision security camera's around my house with 2 of the 6 facing the either the cars or front porch.Every tv can be flipped over to video to see whats going on out side from any angle.
5/shotguns'loaded by the bed
6/I have a shogun belt with 25 rounds of 12 gauge on it along with my primary handgun,that i keep strapped around my waist at all times.
7/ my cell phone also clipped to my belt oh and a blue tooth head set on as well(keeps the hands free).
8 security alarm as well.
dabigguns357 is offline  
Old March 16, 2009, 03:25 PM   #32
armsmaster270
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2008
Location: California
Posts: 1,951
As far as keeping a round in the chamber not a good idea even cops normally don't do it. First of all there is the safety issue and second you can possibly weaken the hammer spring by keeping it under full tension all the time. keep it safety off, hammer down, that way its easy to chamber a round and she does not have to fumble for the safety.
__________________
http://www.armsmaster.net-a.googlepages.com
http://s239.photobucket.com/albums/f...aster270/Guns/
Retired LE, M.P., Sr. M.P. Investigator F.B.I. Trained Rangemaster/Firearms Instructor & Armorer, Presently Forensic Document Examiner for D.H.S.
armsmaster270 is offline  
Old March 16, 2009, 03:26 PM   #33
Cowart
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2007
Posts: 247
<<What else am I missing structurally?>>

It may be too late now, but keep in mind that even a sturdy door can be kicked in. It's better to hang the door so that it opens outwards. It's pretty hard to kick a door out rather than in.

<<She has no interest in getting her own carry permit>>

She probably would not need one to carry in the house.
Cowart is offline  
Old March 16, 2009, 04:01 PM   #34
rantingredneck
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 12, 2007
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 4,728
Quote:
She probably would not need one to carry in the house.
She wouldn't but she has no interest in carrying in the house either. I'd like for her to get her permit for carry outside the home, but that's not likely to happen any time soon.
__________________
NRA Member
NC Hunter's Education Instructor

PCCA Member (What's PCCA you ask? <- Check the link)
rantingredneck is offline  
Old March 19, 2009, 03:52 AM   #35
jgcoastie
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Location: Kodiak, Alaska
Posts: 2,112
Quote:
It may be too late now, but keep in mind that even a sturdy door can be kicked in. It's better to hang the door so that it opens outwards. It's pretty hard to kick a door out rather than in.
Bad idea... What happens when the perps take the hinges off the outside of the door, since it would open outward?

A much better bet would be to use a heavy solid wood core, or metal core door with at least one really strong deadbolt. Replace the wood door frame with metal studs. They ain't cheap, but then again neither is a casket.
__________________
"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them." -Richard Henry Lee, Virginia delegate to the Continental Congress, initiator of the Declaration of Independence, and member of the first Senate, which passed the Bill of Rights.
jgcoastie is offline  
Old March 19, 2009, 12:46 PM   #36
scottaschultz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 27, 2009
Location: Missouri
Posts: 392
My wife doesn't carry a gun and I am completely OK with that.

One of the first things I learned about firearms was: NEVER POINT A GUN AT SOMETHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY. (or something like that)

That being said, I think that some people do not use this simple rule when considering using a weapon for defensive purposes. The bottom line is that if you ever need to draw your weapon on another human being, even if that human being wishes to do you harm, you should not do so unless you are prepared to kill that person.

If you are hoping that a stern verbal warning while displaying your weapon will be enough to scare that aggressor, it won't.

If you are hoping that a stern verbal warning plus the sound of a hammer being cocked will be enough to scare that aggressor, it won't.

If you think your marksmanship skills are good enough to fire a wounding shot that will only subdue the aggressor without killing them, especially under extreme stress, they aren't.

I know this sounds like a "Well, duh!" comment, but DEAD IS FOREVER! Not everyone has the psychological makeup or stomach for killing another human being, regardless of the circumstances. Rest assured, when you kill another human being, even with the legal issues aside, your life will change forever.

The first thing you need to determine before insisting your loved one use a lethal weapon for self defense is to find out where her head is at when it comes to the issue of ending a human life by her own actions.

Whew!
Scott

Last edited by scottaschultz; March 19, 2009 at 01:35 PM.
scottaschultz is offline  
Old March 19, 2009, 02:13 PM   #37
bababooey32
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 19, 2009
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 161
Pax - one disagreement

I'm a newb here, this is my first post...I am in the same boat as redneck. My wife is not interested in having guns in the house and won't engage when I bring it up. You suggested:

Quote:
Stop Lobbying.......She's a grownup and she gets to choose how, when and whether she wants to protect herself.
This is not entirely the case when she is responsible (by virtue of being a stay-at-home mom) for the safety and protection of OUR children. Her strong-headed refusal to acknowledge her powerlessness in the event of an incident like the one described imacts OUR children as much (or more) than just her.

This doesn't make it any easier to convionce her, but I think it is my responsibility to lobby for the protection of OUR children, even if it is annoying to her.
bababooey32 is offline  
Old March 19, 2009, 02:32 PM   #38
scottaschultz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 27, 2009
Location: Missouri
Posts: 392
Bababooey32 (and everyone else),

Using lethal force to subdue an aggressor should be (IMHO) the LAST line of defense. Sure, your wife is responsible for the safety of your children, but as has been mentioned, what steps have you taken to secure your home to keep an aggressor out in the first place?

Have you even asked your wife if she could, with a clear conscience, kill another human being?

Have you given any thought to the possibility that in a moment of extreme stress during an armed attack, she accidentally kills one of your children? The aggressor may not always cooperate by giving her a clear unobstructed shot. She will have a fraction of a second to make her choice. This is why LEO's train for this over and over and over... and still they sometimes get it wrong.

All I ask is that you think long and hard before putting a lethal weapon in the hands of an amateur.

Scott
scottaschultz is offline  
Old March 19, 2009, 03:01 PM   #39
MDCREEKMORE
Junior Member
 
Join Date: March 19, 2009
Posts: 5
Just because you are home doesn't mean you are safe from attack. As the economy continues to worsen expect crimes such as home invasion to rise in a like manner. I live out in the "boonies" and while I don't carry a weapon on my person at all times I do keep one nearby just in case.
__________________
The Survivalist Blog - Live better, Live cheaper and Survive when things get Tough.

http://thesurvivalistblog.blogspot.com
MDCREEKMORE is offline  
Old March 19, 2009, 03:16 PM   #40
ZeSpectre
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 4, 2007
Location: Shenandoah Valley
Posts: 3,276
Quote:
Any advice on how to get my wife to come around on the carry issue?
Sometimes you can't. In that case you need to have a good "plan B" (and "C" and even "D").

My wife agreed to learn the basics of firearms safety and we practice them regularly. She also comes (once in a blue moon) to the range with me and is a moderately decent shot (especially considering how infrequently she trains)
BUT
She believes that she could not shoot another human being.

Well, I've had to bow to reality and come up with some alternatives because she is strong in her belief and there's no point in me badgering her into an option she won't use.

Quote:
Just because you are home doesn't mean you are safe from attack.
Yeah, I recently had a non-event that almost gave me a frikin heart attack before I learned what was really going on.
ZeSpectre is offline  
Old March 19, 2009, 03:24 PM   #41
pax
Staff
 
Join Date: May 16, 2000
Location: Washington state
Posts: 6,983
bababooey ~

Okay, now turn it around: SHE has every bit as much right to decide how HER children are raised and protected as YOU do. That's the way it works ... and there you are back at square one.

If a man makes odious on the subject, then on the day his wife realizes she's tired of being lectured as if she were a child, she'll find herself a more pleasant companion. And when she leaves, the man loses almost all ability to protect his children anyway, because they'll spend most of their time somewhere else, under someone else's roof, learning someone else's values.

That's the reality.

Flies, honey, vinegar.

So if it's really important to you, stop lobbying. Don't give her a chance to dig her heels in. Do give her an opportunity to do her own thinking, ask her own questions, and come to her own conclusions, in an atmosphere where it doesn't cost her ego anything to change her mind.

pax
__________________
Kathy Jackson
My personal website: Cornered Cat
pax is offline  
Old March 19, 2009, 03:36 PM   #42
bababooey32
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 19, 2009
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 161
I hear you Scott, but...

Quote:
Have you even asked your wife if she could, with a clear conscience, kill another human being?
My wife and I have talked about defending our children in general terms. neither of us are violent people, but we both agree that in defending each other or the kids we would have no problem dipatching with a BG(s). I don't think that's the hang-up. I think her hang up has to do with being unfamilar with guns (as I am as well) and never having spent time around them. As is mentioned often here, that "mystique" or aura of the unknown creates a bit of fear. I think if we can get them past that, we can successfully encourage them to defned themselves.

Quote:
...what steps have you taken to secure your home to keep an aggressor out in the first place?
I believe our home is quite secure. There's only 2 entrances to the home on the ground floor. One is a solid metal door the other is a solid-core doior, both deadboltyed and alarmed. All windows are alarmed and off the ground (10ft or more). Ample outdoor lighting. gated community. Neighborhood watch. Add common-sense behavior and awareness (sometimes she aggravates me with her paranoia), and I feel we are in good shape. I bet if someone tried to break in, they would fail and/or be scared off by alarm. I am not, however, willing to bet my life on it, so I chose to bring in one last line of defense.....

Quote:
Have you given any thought to the possibility that in a moment of extreme stress during an armed attack, she accidentally kills one of your children?
No...but there are an infinite number of potentails and "possibilities" that I don't give much thought too. I could stumle and trip and the BG could close on me....I could shoot and miss and hit the stove and cause a fire. I could.............The reality is that there are far more dangers to my children than me or my wife accidentaly shooting them. More kids are run over by their parents then are accidentalyy shot by them. But we still both drive.

Quote:
All I ask is that you think long and hard before putting a lethal weapon in the hands of an amateur.
Most of us are amateurs. I know LEOs and military patrol these boards, but unless you're being paid to shoot or carry, you're an amateur. Why do you assume that I am taking this lightly? It is a serious decision that has serious implications. I am in the process of learning to safely operate a firearm before I purchase one, what makes you think we wouldn't do the same for my wife. Someone put a firearm in YOUR hand for the first time once too.
bababooey32 is offline  
Old March 19, 2009, 03:36 PM   #43
rantingredneck
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 12, 2007
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 4,728
My wife and I had an interesting conversation Tuesday evening.

She asked, "How's Joe's friend's wife?" (the lady who was stabbed).

I said, "Last I heard doing well but I forgot to ask Joe about any updates today".

She said, "You keep that shotgun out for me in the closet, Do you keep any other guns out?"

Me, "No, I don't leave any handguns out because of the kids. Even putting them up on a high shelf isn't a good solution. I could get a quick access safe and put a revolver in it, maybe."

She said, "how much do those cost?"

Me, "Not much"

Her, "Where would you put it?"

Me, "I don't know, maybe in a closet or something. Somewhere out of plain sight"

Her, "Put it behind that door (pointing at our bedroom door)"

Needless to say there will be one behind that door ASAP.
__________________
NRA Member
NC Hunter's Education Instructor

PCCA Member (What's PCCA you ask? <- Check the link)
rantingredneck is offline  
Old March 19, 2009, 05:17 PM   #44
America's1stFreedom
Junior Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2009
Posts: 4
Withoutout nagging, keep on her about carrying. lol

Having weapons locked up does nothing for your/her protection.

Training children is a MUST!!! I was raised with loaded firearms throughout the house and was shooting since 4 or 5 years old. I was taught from a very early age that they are not toys. They can be dangerous, etc. The standing rule that was drilled into my younger brother and I was..."if you want to see one you ALWAYS ask me(my dad) and you can see it any time". More than once I woke my dad at 3am and asked to see one. He'd tell me to hold on a minute and then got up and asked which one I wanted. We were also drilled on safety. Muzzle awareness, etc. "The most dangerous firearm is the one that's not loaded!!!" Teach your children!


I'm kinda new around here and don't know if this made the rounds here...

...lock bumping.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRtSikCqWIg


I can't vouch for this. Probably best to consult a pro.
...how to stop lock bumping without changing locks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGX6j...eature=related
America's1stFreedom is offline  
Old March 19, 2009, 06:52 PM   #45
pax
Staff
 
Join Date: May 16, 2000
Location: Washington state
Posts: 6,983
rr ~

Excellent!

pax
__________________
Kathy Jackson
My personal website: Cornered Cat
pax is offline  
Old March 19, 2009, 10:29 PM   #46
MothersLilHelper
Member
 
Join Date: January 3, 2009
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 18
Pax, seriously, you need to do the world a favor and get a talk show host gig on prime time. You're awesome.

My story uses much of Pax's 'pretty-much-standard advice'.

My wife/best friend/partner in crime didn't much like guns a few years ago--to the point of "Guns kill people: why do you even want one?" She's pretty good with them now--because I kept asking her "Why do you think that?" when she objected to me doing a CCW class, hunting, etc. And then I shut the hell up and listened to her answer. More often than not, I responded with "Honey, I love you very much and I hate to sound like a two year old, but why do you think this other thing that follows?" And if she started getting heated, I'd say "Honey, I love you very much and I'm so psyched to be talking about this with you but I don't want you to be mad at me. Can we table this, or can you help me understand why you're mad? Let's go for a walk together and get some ice cream." And I only said "Why do you think that?" when she brought it up.

Moral thinking is painful for everybody but a great way to grow a marriage, especially if you're not committed to being right. Our minister told us "You can choose if you'd rather be married or right," and I think it is great advice.

My wonderful wife still doesn't want a carry permit. She's taken some handgun classes and has been to the range with me plenty of times. She shoots as much as she wants (or not at all) on her terms as she wants. She taught my little sister how to shoot--I started sis with a big, heavy .45 with the saying that "Big calibers are for little girls!" and the nice slow push of the .45 is comfier for many than the snap of a .380. Sis was shaking like a leaf and Mrs. MLH made shooting a really fun game for her. (For would-be objectors, sister still greatly prefers .45 to so-called 'lady calibers.') She also called me 'jerky boy' for a week when I was jerking the trigger on a new handgun.

Mrs. MLH loves taking me to the woodshed on sporting clays and beating me like a dog, and no longer even thinks "paranoid reactionary" when she sees me carrying around the house. She just thinks "he's different from me and I love him" and I think it right back at her flipped around.

But I didn't preach or dictate or plead: three very male approaches. I just asked questions. Same deal: when she invites me to change my mind on something, it's an invitation and a discussion. We've got two weapons where she can reach them in the house, she knows the manuals for them both (her doing, not mine) and her shots go where they're aimed.

Mrs. MLH has asked for a refresher course at an outdoor range with clean-range ammo (breastfeeding) and asked me the other day "Do you think I'd be OK with myself if I shot a deer?" and she left a browser open to Gunsite's page....present for me? Present for her? Oh, how the times do change...but I can't bring it up. Sheer torture. No chance she did it accidentally. I think she's actually training me to buy her jewelry, but we'll be married another 50 years at least--I'll figure her out eventually. Maybe. God, I love that woman.

Anyway. My two cents.

This should be on a wallet card for men:
Okay, now turn it around: SHE has every bit as much right to decide how HER children are raised and protected as YOU do. That's the way it works ... and there you are back at square one.

If a man makes odious on the subject, then on the day his wife realizes she's tired of being lectured as if she were a child, she'll find herself a more pleasant companion. And when she leaves, the man loses almost all ability to protect his children anyway, because they'll spend most of their time somewhere else, under someone else's roof, learning someone else's values.
MothersLilHelper is offline  
Old March 19, 2009, 10:53 PM   #47
curt.45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 28, 2008
Location: Fort Wayne Ind.
Posts: 799
I think I posted this before.

when I was married I had a gun hidden in the house for my wife if she needed it.

one night a bunch of us (her sister and brother in law, they carried 24/7) were talking about things and she said if she was ever attcked she wouldnt shoot she would just show the gun and hope that stoped them, the room got quite for a few minutes.

later that night after everyone left I locked up that gun, and explained to her it wasn't for show and I didnt want to come home and find my wife shot dead by my own gun.

I also began to think she might use it on herself (but thats a whole nother story)
curt.45 is offline  
Old March 20, 2009, 08:11 AM   #48
bababooey32
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 19, 2009
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 161
Pax & MLH:

Quote:
Okay, now turn it around: SHE has every bit as much right to decide how HER children are raised and protected as YOU do. That's the way it works ... and there you are back at square one.
You are absoultely right. However, your solution to this is that we both silence our opinion on how to raise and protect the children, whereas I say we both have a right to advocate for our position (within reason - no badgering our brow-beating). Two martried adults should be able to have a reasonable discussion about an issue on which they disagree. If she feels strongly that there should be no guns around, let her make her case. If I feel strongly that we should be armed, I should make my case.

Now, from a strategy standpoint, I t hink you are probably right. Continuing to bring it up will only cause her to shut down further on the subject. In any case I feel better that I'm not the only one struggling with this.
bababooey32 is offline  
Old March 23, 2009, 09:50 AM   #49
ECHOONE
Junior member
 
Join Date: February 10, 2008
Location: FL
Posts: 204
No Deadbolt Lock is safe....There selling keys on E-bay to anyone that has the money that along with a hammer can open just about any dead bolt in seconds and it shows no signs of forced entry, Nice huh!!! If you can a Dog ,An Alarm system, and as crazy as it may seem try to get in practice of carrying a compact defensive handgun in house,let's face it we live in bad times and things are getting worse! if you have kids sit them down truly educate them about guns in the house as early as you can avoid a horrible tragedy.Make your home a safe home for the guns to be in so that when you do need them there ,there to do the intended job if need be.
ECHOONE is offline  
Old March 23, 2009, 10:52 PM   #50
vox rationis
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 15, 2007
Posts: 1,855
Quote:
No Deadbolt Lock is safe....There selling keys on E-bay to anyone that has the money that along with a hammer can open just about any dead bolt in seconds and it shows no signs of forced entry, Nice huh!!!
what's worse is that all you need to adapt a regular key to a key that you are describing is a simple file and 20-30 minutes of your time..and you don't even need a hammer, just the handle of said file, or the handle of a screw driver...

video 1

video 2
vox rationis is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:11 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.15670 seconds with 7 queries