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Old March 30, 2009, 11:04 AM   #26
fineredmist
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I purchased a pair of 2nd Gen Colt 1851 Navy models when they were new and available. They were beautiful to look at and hold but they were not shooters. I live just outside of Hartford so I was able to take them back when they failed and that was just about evertime I shot them. One was so bad that it could not be repaired and it was replaced.
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Old March 30, 2009, 12:59 PM   #27
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(Percussion Colt Revolvers - The Second Generation; Dennis Russell; 2007)
That's interesting Fingers. I think your source is probably more reliable than mine. I stand corrected, thanks, I hate passing bad info. I need to pick up that book.
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Old March 30, 2009, 03:44 PM   #28
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Madcratebuilder - you can contact him at: Colt-Blackpowder@earthlink.net or chain-fire@earthlink.net It's $24.95 plus shipping. Well worth the price. The 2007 edition includes some infor on Sig Series guns as well
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Old March 30, 2009, 03:54 PM   #29
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i have 2 uberti cattleman and 1 cimarron thunderer all blue and case hardened in 45 cal. all fine quality, no difference in the thunderer except for the shorter barrel and difffenert grip, bluing and cc are the same and the quality of both are the same good quality. and they work and can shoot well too.
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Old March 30, 2009, 07:11 PM   #30
madcratebuilder
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Madcratebuilder - you can contact him at: Colt-Blackpowder@earthlink.net or chain-fire@earthlink.net It's $24.95 plus shipping. Well worth the price. The 2007 edition includes some infor on Sig Series guns as well
Thanks fingers, I ordered it this afternoon, plus two other Colt books.
So, how many 2nd and 3rd gens are living in your safe now? I know last year you had a very nice collection going.
I'm working on finding some of the more unusual ones, at least I hope they are unusual. The Trapper, a fluted Dragoon, a fluted 1860 and a nickle 1860 are the best of my nine pieces.
How many different models of the 51 Navy got made? I have one with a Dragoon trigger guard, I think that's a first model, but have read some conflicting info about that.
I think I well sell my Italian Colts and concentrate on the 2nd and 3rd gen guns. Sure wish the prices on GB got more realistic.
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Old March 31, 2009, 12:21 AM   #31
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MCB, I've got 30 2nd Gens; but only 26 are unfired NIB. Presently looking for an Electroless Nickel 1860, blank cylinder 1851, both of the round trigger guard '51s, one of 500 cased set Pocket Police, and matched pair Grant/Lee set.

My C series '51 Navies were used for CAS for about 3 years, so I need to pick up a couple NIB replacements. Need on with SN below 5000; one between 5000 and 12000 and one between 13000 and 19000 so I have one with each of the three different boxes they came in. I'm curently using a pair of 1861 Navies for CAS.

Different models of 2nd Gen '51 Navies were:

C1121 - Silver plated BS and Square back trigger guard
C1122 - Brass BS and Square back trigger guard
C1131 - Sliver plated BS and round trigger guard
C1132 - Brass BS and round trigger guard
C9001 - Robert E Lee Comm
C9002 - US Grant Comm
C9003 - Grant/Lee Matched pair set
F1100 - Silver plated BS and square back trigger guard
F1101 - Silver plated BS and square back trigger guard w/blank cylinder
F1110 - Stainless Steel

There were also limited edition engraved and gold inlaid models made in quantities between 25 and 174

You're right about the GB prices. I can not believe that a Cavalry set went for $3000 - 2007 Blue Book is only $1450. I know they havent gone up that much.
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Old March 31, 2009, 11:28 AM   #32
Indian Outlaw
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Buffalo Arms doesn't stock the Cimarron 1858 Remington Navy, but they are going to order one for me from Cimarron (Texas). The guy on the phone -- John -- said that they inspect them after they get them from Cimarron. $275.89 + shipping. The price goes up $10 tomorrow.

Last edited by Indian Outlaw; March 31, 2009 at 11:33 AM.
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Old March 31, 2009, 06:41 PM   #33
AdmiralB
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The last two I ordered from Buffalo were non-stock too (3rd Dragoon Civilian and 4.5" Police). Takes a couple weeks, Buffalo only orders from Cimarron once a week, and then you've got travel time to Idaho from Texas, and to you from Idaho.
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Old March 31, 2009, 06:54 PM   #34
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Yeah, he told me "three weeks."

It's a very good price on a Cimarron. They're $333.41, direct from Texas Jacks.
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Old April 16, 2009, 06:56 AM   #35
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Well, my Cimarron Remington Navy arrived yesterday. The only difference between it and the generic Ubertis I've seen is the wording on the barrel -- the rest is the same. The front sight lines up with the rear notch and the cylinder gap is fine for a BP gun. The grips are quite nice and the hammer does not require an iron thumb to operate. The timing seems perfect.

A crappy indoor picture:



The hammer has two small dents that I can't explain. Not sure if they are proofmarks.

Okay, now for the fun part. I immediately dunked it in a tub of 50% water, 50% apple cider vinegar to remove the shiny black finish. I stripped the finish on the grips and applied some Watco Danish Oil - Medium Walnut. The oil is drying while I'm here at work. There are a few spots where the black didn't come off and so I need to buy some blue remover today. The final step will be to smear some Perma Blue Paste all over the gun with a cleaning patch. This will give a pleasing, uneven patina. I won't be pitting the steel or denting the grips. I do this to all my cap & ball guns because I like the "well used but not abused look." Some people think I'm nuts, but most like the finished product.

Last edited by Indian Outlaw; April 16, 2009 at 05:50 PM.
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Old April 16, 2009, 08:20 AM   #36
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they are all getting the same guns from the same handful of Italian mfrs.

I have an ASM 1861 Navy Richards conversion 44 Colt- and it's been shooting just fine, after putting several hundred rounds through it- no failures.

one thing I noticed about these replicas though, the barrel wedge doesnt' go all the way through- if you force it in until the spring pops out the other side, it locks up the cylinder- not enough clearance.

and I've seen the same condition on Uberti-made guns assembled/finished by Colt- the 2nd-3rd generation Signature series guns.

I believe they are starting off with the wedge/barrel interface on the "tight" side, so if the gun is used heavy and eventually "shoots loose", then the pin can be pushed all the way in and still tighten it up- and extend the life of the gun before it needs 'smithing.

actually a good idea.

the real quality issue is this- a gun with a gas check ring/seal on front of cylinder, will be a better shooting gun with BP, due to eliminating the BP fouling of the cylinder pin. I believe Uberti has put gas seals on all their cartridge guns now. A REALLY good idea.

If the Pietta doesnt' have a gas seal, then the Uberti is the better buy.
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Old April 16, 2009, 11:50 AM   #37
pohill
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F. McGee, I see you know your 2nd Generation Colts (30? Damn) - anything ever pan out on that Kittery gun?
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Old April 16, 2009, 12:08 PM   #38
madcratebuilder
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one thing I noticed about these replicas though, the barrel wedge doesnt' go all the way through- if you force it in until the spring pops out the other side, it locks up the cylinder- not enough clearance.
They are not supposed to go all the way through. The spring is only to keep the wedge from falling completely out of the barrel lug when removed from the frame. It catches the lip of the screw above the wedge. That screw is meant to be tight, not an adjustment.
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Old April 16, 2009, 12:13 PM   #39
Hawg
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Captain Crossman, you're nothing but a bundle of negativity and most of your posts are erroneous. You apparently have very little experience with bp revolvers. Why do you even come here?
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Old April 16, 2009, 12:27 PM   #40
CaptainCrossman
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fineredmist said quote:

"I purchased a pair of 2nd Gen Colt 1851 Navy models when they were new and available. They were beautiful to look at and hold but they were not shooters. I live just outside of Hartford so I was able to take them back when they failed and that was just about evertime I shot them. One was so bad that it could not be repaired and it was replaced"




one thing a C-B shooter learns really quick- a Colt open tops look great, but aren't much as shooters. The Remington '58, now that's a shooter- stronger, reliable- the Rem runs rings around the open tops.
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Old April 16, 2009, 12:35 PM   #41
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one thing a C-B shooter learns really quick- a Colt open tops look great, but aren't much as shooters. The Remington '58, now that's a shooter- stronger, reliable- the Rem runs rings around the open tops.
The Colt with it's large cylinder arbor is just as strong if not stronger than a Remington. My 60 Colt will out shoot by a very narrow margin my newest 58 Remington. My oldest 58 will outshoot it by a very narrow margin but you really have to bench them to tell the difference.
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Old April 16, 2009, 01:21 PM   #42
Indian Outlaw
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The Colts held up pretty well during a lengthy Civil War. I prefer Remingtons, but the Colts are reasonably strong for a black powder gun.
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Old April 16, 2009, 01:24 PM   #43
pohill
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As far as the wedge...read this patent except.
The wedge screw on the original 1851 .36 that I just got has an oversized head which actually makes contact with the wedge and keeps it from moving in too far.
Oh yeah...Colts are Da Balls. Strong, beautiful, balanced...Remingtons are cool, too, but Colts are works of art that go bang.

Patent #1,304 dated 8/29/1839. In this patent, Colt talks about the "key" or wedge. "As the key C is to act laterally as a wedge to draw the receiver and the barrel into contact, it is of importance that it should be checked when forced sufficiently far in, or the receiver might be wedged up and prevented from turning. For this purpose I insert a screw, e, Fig.3, into the steel button f, which is attached to D D... The head of this screw, overlapping the end of the mortise, receives the wedge and checks it. By turning this screw the force of the wedge may be tempered. In fig. 5 g is a spring-latch on the under side of the key, which catches upon D when the key is forced in and prevents its accidental removal."

Last edited by pohill; April 16, 2009 at 04:54 PM.
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Old April 16, 2009, 01:53 PM   #44
Hawg
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On originals the screw was a depth set for the wedge. Doesn't work that way on the repros or at least mine isn't long enough for that purpose as my wedge is just barely flush on the off side and the screw will fall out if backed out that far.
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Old April 16, 2009, 03:10 PM   #45
CraigC
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The Colt with it's large cylinder arbor is just as strong if not stronger than a Remington.
Lots of folks forget about that big arbor, compared to the ΒΌ" basepin of the solid frame guns. In the purpose for which they were designed, they are plenty strong enough if properly constructed and IMHO, none are better looking.
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Old April 16, 2009, 05:35 PM   #46
AdmiralB
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The Colt with it's large cylinder arbor is just as strong if not stronger than a Remington.
Define 'strong'. Lots of people forget that that large arbor steps down to about 1/4" where it threads into the frame.

The size of a Remington's pin doesn't matter - it's not bearing any load.
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Old April 16, 2009, 09:19 PM   #47
madcratebuilder
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Define 'strong'. Lots of people forget that that large arbor steps down to about 1/4" where it threads into the frame.
For exact numbers I would have to dig out my Machinery's Handbook. Off to top my head a typical 1/4 inch bolt proofs at over 3000lbs and clamps over 2000lbs.
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Old April 16, 2009, 09:22 PM   #48
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Y'all got way off topic.
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Old April 16, 2009, 09:26 PM   #49
madcratebuilder
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Guilty as charged.
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Old April 16, 2009, 11:29 PM   #50
Fingers McGee
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Quote CPT Crossman:
Quote:
one thing I noticed about these replicas though, the barrel wedge doesnt' go all the way through- if you force it in until the spring pops out the other side, it locks up the cylinder- not enough clearance.
Nope. None of my Colts display that condition.

Quote Cpt Crossman again:
Quote:
one thing a C-B shooter learns really quick- a Colt open tops look great, but aren't much as shooters. The Remington '58, now that's a shooter- stronger, reliable- the Rem runs rings around the open tops.
I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree on that score. I've got a pair of Uberti '61 Navies and 2nd Gen Colt '61 Navies that are more reliable and outshoot any remmie they come up against.

Quote Pohill -
Quote:
F. McGee, I see you know your 2nd Generation Colts (30? Damn) - anything ever pan out on that Kittery gun?
I havent gotten around to calling yet - () actually, forgot about it. Guess I need to do that tomorrow.

FM
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Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee - AKA Man of Many Colts - Alter ego of Diabolical Ken; SASS Regulator 28564-L-TG; Rangemaster and stage writer extraordinaire; Frontiersman, Pistoleer, NRA Endowment Life, NMLRA, SAF, CCRKBA, STORM 327, SV115; Charter member, Central Ozarks Western Shooters
Cynic: A blackguard whose faulty vision see things as they are, not as they should be. Ambrose Bierce

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