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Old March 12, 2009, 07:17 AM   #1
twocan
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Pistol Grip Shotguns

I just purchased a set of pistol grip shotguns: a Mossberg 12 gauge and a Mossberg 20 gauge.

Since my prior experience with shotguns is with buttstock style, I am interested in the best way to aim these guns. Shooting from the hip seems against all reason in regards to a sight picture, and holding the grip with one hand while bracing that forearm with the other hand seems unreasonable to gain a steady aim. (espeially with the 12 gauge)

I would appreciate your thoughts on aiming these fine defensive weapons.

Capt. Art
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Old March 12, 2009, 08:50 AM   #2
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The best way to aim them is to bolt a stock on...
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Old March 12, 2009, 08:53 AM   #3
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PGO shotguns are a bad idea for anything except door breaching. What you really need is a standard stock or pistol grip stock if you want to be able to hit anything beyond 25 feet reliably.
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Old March 12, 2009, 09:01 AM   #4
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+1 for Slopemo

Put a stock on the gun and it will work great.
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Old March 12, 2009, 09:12 AM   #5
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PG's on a shotgun IMO are worthless.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...olgrip+shotgun

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...olgrip+shotgun

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...olgrip+shotgun

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...olgrip+shotgun
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Old March 12, 2009, 09:38 AM   #6
freakintoguns
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i went and got a pistol grip for my remington 870 and hated it. got a nasty blister on my trigger finger from it and my wrist hurt for a good 2 weeks. i say swap the pistolgrips outr for a buttstock or pistolgrip buttstock
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Old March 12, 2009, 10:08 AM   #7
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NOT THIS WAY!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoClS...eature=related
Really a fun way to shoot once you get used to letting it float through recoil while hip shooting. I have shot a few NO... A A FEWWWWWW clays, some squirrel and rabbits with my 20 gauge with just the pistol grip. But hip shooting and the rare clay or game can also be taken with a full stock from many more shooting positions.
Brent
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Old March 12, 2009, 10:26 AM   #8
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twocan

I am a great opponent on this forum of Pistol Grip Only (PGO) stocks for Fighting Scatterguns. I have had some experience with short barreled and PGO stocked scatteguns mainly the Ithaca "stakeout" model.

If you had asked before your purchase, I would have tried to dissuade you from your course of action. However, in this case you have the guns (made your bed) and unless you follow the advice of my counterparts "it is what is is." PGO guns.

So, I will try to pass on the things I learned about this type of scattergun;

1st - recoil management at about 80 Ft Lbs of felt recoil for defensive rounds, there is a LOT of energy transfer when you pull the trigger on a shotgun. Most folks try to hold the gun down around their waist (way to low) and all of this energy is transferred to their wrist, that hurts! A better idea is to bend your arm at the elbow and get your forearm in line with the barrel, this transfers recoil along your forearm and your elbow works as a shock absorber, it is the best we can hope for recoil wise. Make sure not to bend your wrist, another words KEEP the pistol grip centered in the web of your hand "just like a pistol"! Never try to hold the gun with one hand. Never attempt to shoot the gun at eye level with Heavy load of buck or slugs.

2nd - At close range our shot patterns are very small, WE CAN MISS. an old Skeet shooting trick helps, lay the pointing finger of your weak hand along the forend in line with the barrel, use this to point the gun, it will help a little.

3rd - From the normal open shotgun stance take an additional 1/4 step forward this transfer a little more weight forward and helps a little to keep the gun from bucking so viciously. Move your body left and right, not the gun.

The above ideas do help, my advise is " if this is a fighting scattergun then change the stocks", below is MY latest rant about PGO stocks.


Quote:
1st - humans are heavily influenced by pictures and of weight are pictures of war fighters from the front. We see a lot of shotguns in these pictures with pistol grip only stocks (PGO) but we must understand that these are not "fighting scatterguns" they are specialized and effective breaching/gas throwing tools. The vendors of "toys" for our scatterguns also see these pictures and have exploited a nitch in the market place (you). They key idea here is that for them it is about money, not effectiveness.


3rd - It is difficult to get one's mind around truth that we can and do miss with a scattergun. Myth, legend and folk lore tell us that scatterguns hit without our hand/eye guidance. The reality of the street is that we MUST point the muzzle of our scattergun into a SPECIFIC target to get hits. So, here is my personal reality for you, THE CLOSER THE ENEMY IS TO YOU, THE MORE THE CHANCE OF MISSING. At ten feet our pattern with 00 buck is only about 3" at 20 feet it is about 6", it is not hard to miss with this size pattern.

4th - PGO stocks no matter who makes it do not transfer recoil as well as shoulder mounted stock. They are simply one of those trade offs, to reduce the overall size of the gun, we sacrifice point-ability and recoil management.

Hopefully some of what I have said rings true for you. In the end, you alone have to decide what compromises are to your advantage.

Good Luck & Be Safe
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Old March 12, 2009, 10:49 AM   #9
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Brent, I'm still laughing at that video, lol what a clown. the fact that he's wearing a tac vest and a canteen for some strange reason makes it even better. "Are we recording?" lulz
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Old March 12, 2009, 10:49 AM   #10
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+1 for Scattergun Bob

My friend, it's nice to hear the real skinny on PGO shot-gunning. Usually we just get reports of what happens when it's done incorrectly -- OUCH!
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Old March 12, 2009, 11:01 AM   #11
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I think Scattergun Bob pretty much nailed this one (as always).

Replacement buttstocks are not terribly expensive and will be a very easy upgrade to your two new Mossberg 500's.

Check the usual online retail locations or the classifieds here and the other big firearms sites (AR15.com, THR, etc.). Another option is to check www.havlinsales.com. A good resource for all things Mossberg (and a few things Remington). Stock sets there are fairly inexpensive and in great shape. Quick service too.

The good news is there's always someone else out there who will buy a PGO off you to help finance your new purchase. No matter how many rants the regulars here in the shotgun forum post against them, there are some who just have to learn the hard way .
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Old March 12, 2009, 11:08 AM   #12
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Yes the method of holding one is what I practiced PGO never below the belly button.
I have run un countable rounds from the John Wayne style low hip shooting stance but just fer C-N-G and with the 20 gauge and usually with field loads so the brutal recoil of a HOT 12 load wasn't there to injure my wrist.

A good thing is the stocks swap real easy and now you own the "FUN" style... keep it around.

Havlin sales has stocks of OEM new or take offs that are priced real good.
http://havlinsales.com/default.htm

CC, The canteen was nice touch but the "are you recording" hit me in the head like a PGO lipshot as "HEY YA'LL WATCH THIS...!!!!"
Brent
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Old March 12, 2009, 11:09 AM   #13
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Rant, I gotta type less to beat you to pluggin' Mr.Havlin, I see...
Brent
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Old March 12, 2009, 11:24 AM   #14
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Vic and Cheryl have gotten a lot of my money over the years .

Good folks.
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Old March 12, 2009, 01:21 PM   #15
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what about pgo shotgun with a laser? then you can fire accurately from the hip. hmmmm
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Old March 12, 2009, 02:09 PM   #16
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Quote:
I think Scattergun Bob pretty much nailed this one (as always).
Finally he shows up! I was waiting for either him...or Dave McC...to weigh in.
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Old March 12, 2009, 02:48 PM   #17
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IMO pgo shotguns have their place. i've used shotguns for many years and love em!!!... given the choice in a defensive situation i'll always go for the full stock. that being said, sometimes concealability and mobility is a factor so as of a few years ago, i bought and have been practicing with a pgo remington 870. after careful consideration i have come to the conclusion that for defensive use out to 30 yards the pgo is a very effective weapon. shooting from the hip i can easily hit a pie plate to 30 yards (00 buck) and using a two handed grip ( like gripping a pistol) i have shot out to 100 yards (with slugs) effectively ( granted the follow up shot is extremely slow and you have to transition your grip to shuck the gun ). i have never had a problem with the recoil with any shotgun - full or pgo stock ( 6'2'' 240 lbs) ymmv

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Old March 12, 2009, 03:37 PM   #18
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ROTFLMAO @ that video hogs! funny stuff right there
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Old March 12, 2009, 03:42 PM   #19
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I ain't the first to post that link but I feel absolutely no guilt rippin' it regularly!

What I wanna know is if dental work was needed and how bad of a hair lip he has now!
Brent
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Old March 12, 2009, 04:03 PM   #20
Slopemeno
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Take that PGO shotgun to your local bowling pin or USPSA match and see how you do. I think you'll find the difference between casual accuracy and what it takes to hit under pressure are two different things.

If you want to hit "at speed", put a normal stock back on it.
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Old March 12, 2009, 04:24 PM   #21
twocan
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Thank you all for your informative responses.

Fortunately, each of these shotguns also has a stock, as I was afraid of the problems that you all described with a pistol grip only situation.

I may try some of the tips with the 20 gauge, but I am certain that the stock goes on the 12 gauge tonight.

The laser sight idea is interesting though.

Thanks again.
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Old March 12, 2009, 04:36 PM   #22
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I am not opposed to this type of PG though:

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Old March 12, 2009, 05:30 PM   #23
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I actually like Choate's version of that stock. Kinda small buttplate, but otherwise workable.
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Old March 12, 2009, 05:51 PM   #24
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The Speedfeed III and IV aren't bad stocks either.

I still prefer the standard non pg full buttstock.

Speedfeed II or Remington Police/Wingmaster walnut.
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Old March 12, 2009, 06:06 PM   #25
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I've tried a couple of different setups for my HD shotgun...just pistol grip, speedfeed, ATI M4 sytle collapsible and didn't really like any of them. I ended up going back to a stock but with a shortend LOP. I really like this for HD as it's nice and compact but still comfortable to shoot. I just like to keep it simple.

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