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Old March 12, 2009, 03:35 AM   #26
jgcoastie
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Do yourself (and the deer in the woods) a favor: Leave the 9mm under the truck seat. I've been hunting for many many years now, and there has never been a time when I needed to draw a pistol to kill a deer. There's been plenty of times when I needed to pull my 10mm on a hog, but never have I needed to pull a pistol on a deer when carrying a proper rifle. Why carry both?

If you've got a .243Win, I would suggest that you take a little extra money and get yourself some premium hunting ammo or load your own. Get real good with that .243. Practice a lot all throughout the year. That way, when deer season comes along, you won't feel as much of a need to go gunslingin' with your 9mm while deer hunting.

Why would you need a 9mm deer hunting? Have the deer gangs been mugging a lot of hunters in the area? If so, I'd recommend that you grab a Remington 870 12ga to deal with that issue, it's proven to be much more effective than a 9mm against two- and four-legged threats of all types. A lot more effective than a Hi-Point in any caliber. Good grief man, get yourself a proper gun and then try your best to only use it for the proper job. That's where the hunting anti's have us... There's too many people out there that want to go 'hunting' so they grab their 10/22 cause it's their only rilfe and go out on public land and try to kill deer with it, only to maim and injure them. They then do not track the wounded animal, leaving it to die out there in front of a tree-hugger walking down a 'nature trail'. All the anti's see is a bullet wound and no hunter tracking it. What type of image does that project for hunters???

And as a side note, I've never had a deer, or any animal for that matter, run more than about 50ft before dropping to the ground after I shot it, graveyard dead. If the animals you kill consistantly run for 50yards or more, you'd best be getting to the range and figure out what you're doing wrong. Deer ain't that big and they ain't real hard to kill. It's when people take unethical shots that bad things happen, both for hunting/gun rights and the possibility of ruined game/lost game.

USE THE RIGHT GUN FOR THE JOB!!! KNOW YOUR GUN AND USE IT ETHICALLY!!! IF YOU CAN'T DO BOTH OF THESE, STAY OUT OF OUR WOODS!!!
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Old March 12, 2009, 04:01 AM   #27
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9mm?

Couple of points. AZAK, the one Polar Bear I know of (and sorry, I don't have date, place or shooter) killed with a 22 was with a 222 Remington, and that was an eye shot. I would like to know the date, location and shooter (for verification purposes) if you have them. Not saying it can't be done, nor that it wasn't done.

I've handled a Hi-Point. Yes, they are heavy. A blowback operated .45 ACP ain't my kinda gun. Hitting a target with a Hi-Point's stock open sights is iffy at best, too.

The 9mm Parabellum is a social round. Meant for people. It's implied right there in the name. With a heavy, flat point, solid bullet it could be a hunting round, but deer (while categorized as thin-skinned game, same as humans) are (as was pointed out by a couple of posters already) TOUGHER than people. Human flesh is pretty soft compared to almost any other animal. To put it kindly, you could say our meat is "well marbled".

Despite the fact that almost the entire world's military carry 9mm sidearms, I do not trust the 9 to put down a man reliably. .45 ACP is my minimum (MAYBE .40 S&W), or if I need something smaller, .357 Mag with a REALLY properly constructed bullet.

On the question of 38 Special vs 9mm, the 38 has heavier bullet weights available. On deer, heavier is better.

A discussion of the terminal ballistics of a 9mm diameter slug or a .243" diameter slug will have to wait until another time and a more expert writer than me, but the performance envelope of the 9mm just does not reach up into the power/momentum levels required for any reasonable degree of assurance of a humane kill. The .243 does, but it better be a tough bullet that retains its weight well and expands well enough to cut a good sized wound channel. Think something like the Nosler partition.

In short, the 9 ain't got the juice. The .243 is comfortably within the performance envelope, but with limitations and requirements.

I liked Jekyll's suggestion of an acceptable 9mm.

Unlike cavediver27, I congratulate you for asking the question. Better to get information from the forum here than from some unfortunate and pitiable deer in the field, tracking a weak blood trail for hours in the dark.

Unsolicited advice: Trade the Hi-Point for a T-C with a "4" in its name. 45 Colt, 454 Casull, 460 S&W or 500 S&W, .475 Linebaugh. You DO reload, yes? If not, trade the Hi-Point in for a press kit. You can get more practice with your 243. Shot placement.

Good luck, good hunting.

Lost Sheep

P.S. the short answer to your question, "A good 9mm hunting round" There isn't one in the 9x19 chambering. I don't believe your Hi-point is safe to shoot with +p loads anyway, and the only use for a 9mm Luger/Parabellum /9x19 on a deer is the kill shot on a deer that is laying down on the ground motionless and in pain.

Last edited by Lost Sheep; March 12, 2009 at 04:18 AM. Reason: spelling and the P.S.
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Old March 12, 2009, 04:33 AM   #28
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Isnt that only available to law enforcement? Or did I miss something. A google for that ammo takes me to a site I can purchase it (currently backordered) but its also a LEO oriented site.


SNIP

A popular belief, but not true.

The ammo makers, due to media hype about "cop killer bullets" would "LIKE" to limit sale to LEOs but do not require it nor is it illegal.
SOME locales may ban it, but ther's no Federal law.
Recently Cabela's ran a sale on Federal LE .40.
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Old March 12, 2009, 05:22 AM   #29
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Lost Sheep

Quote:
Couple of points. AZAK, the one Polar Bear I know of (and sorry, I don't have date, place or shooter) killed with a 22 was with a 222 Remington, and that was an eye shot. I would like to know the date, location and shooter (for verification purposes) if you have them. Not saying it can't be done, nor that it wasn't done.
Do a little surfing and you will find accounts. Inuit. I spent time living in the bush, and heard accounts. The original native Alaskans used long sharp sticks, prior to the introduction of the .22, to hunt polar bear. From what I have heard, and can imagine, I would take a .22 bolt rifle over a long pointy stick.

As was described to me by an elder it all came down to knowing exactly where to place the shot on the bear's head. Draw a line between one eye and the corresponding ear, find the midway point, move about an inch in either direction and that is where the skull is the thinest.

The original native Alaskans survived just fine going back quite a while before the introduction of firearms.

I have great respect for the elders and their families. And have no reason to doubt their oral history.
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Old March 12, 2009, 05:51 AM   #30
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tough enough

If one is disciplined enough to wait for a broadside lung shot I suggest the 124g XTP-HP or 127g +P+; if bone is encountered I suggest the 147g XTP-HP.
I suggest handloads driving a 147g XTP-HP at over 1100fps, or the 124g XTP-HP at over 1300fps, or those two factory choices only.

But I don't recommend it.....
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Old March 12, 2009, 06:28 AM   #31
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Good advice from all and I would steer clear of using a 9mm for putting down deer. I have carried a 9mm while hunting, but that was a force of habit with no plans to use it on the deer (carried a .308). I don't see any issues hunting deer with a pistol, but your selection, experience and ablities need to be honed; a stoked .357 or 10mm would be about as small as I go. I won't knock the Hi-Point, but you accuracy at 25 yards needs to be pretty darn good to even ponder the use of a pistol on deer.

For me, the pistol is an emergency tool only with the primary function of getting me to my rifle

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Old March 12, 2009, 09:31 AM   #32
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Catfishman is absolutely correct. A .243 is plenty good for deer. I know of a grizzled old deer hunter who shoots deer with that calibre exclusively. Heck, there are gun skeptics out there who insist that even a .30-30 isn't enought rifle for a big deer. As for the 9mm, I would not try to take a deer with one, especially in a handgun. It could definately be done using a rifle chambered for it, but why try when there are other calibers that would be much more effective. I carry a .45 auto as a side arm when deer hunting, but I would never try to take one with it.
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Old March 12, 2009, 10:25 AM   #33
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If your gonna do it I'd go with a hot loaded HP, but shot placement is going to be key. I dropped a Montana Mulie in its tracks w/ my 4" S&W M-18 years ago, but I put that .22 cal 40 grain bullet right in the ear hole. The shot was from a rested position & roughly 25 yards @ a standing deer, I was 100% sure I could make it, & I did.


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Old March 12, 2009, 10:28 AM   #34
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Well thanks for all the advice folks. I think Ive decided that unless Im starving to death, and something is wrong with every other gun around here, Ill leave the 9mm for things its better suited for.

For the record I do have reloading gear available, I shoot 100 gr. bullets loaded to the max in my .243, make varies depending on which box you open, I have some Hornady, some Sierra. Ive never lost a deer that was shot properly. I have lost a deer or two that was shot improperly. But I consider that my fault not the guns. I even got lucky and shot my very first deer right through the hindquarters (I was very shaky) and killed it dead.

My dad bought me this gun when I was about 11 yrs old. I think its more important to train up shooters by providing them with an adequate cartridge, then teaching them how to shoot properly, not providing them with an elephant gun and saying "Well Jimmy, if you hit anything thats brown, you should get 'im just fine!"

Sorry for straying off topic, but I hate when people bash the .243, it was going on even 10 yrs ago when we were buying the gun. People kept saying how I should get a 30-30 instead. But Ive killed several deer with it over the years, in fact there are a couple old coots in my family that have killed I dont know how many with that caliber, and they shoot factory loaded 80 gr bullets! But I digress...

Thanks for the info, and hopefully I dont develop a reputation around here as "the guy that was stupid enough to shoot a deer with a 9mm" or something like that.
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Old March 12, 2009, 10:21 PM   #35
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22 Rimfire vs Pointy Stick

Thanks, AZAK

Quote:
Originally Posted by AZAK;
Do a little surfing and you will find accounts. Inuit. I spent time living in the bush, and heard accounts. The original native Alaskans used long sharp sticks, prior to the introduction of the .22, to hunt polar bear. From what I have heard, and can imagine, I would take a .22 bolt rifle over a long pointy stick.
I will poke around the internet. I suppose the keywords will be ".22", "Rimfire" and "Polar Bear"? Any other suggestions?

Those Inuits (and others) were pretty cagey, and they had some pretty good pointy sticks.

I will share one story I heard of a hunter who came across a polar bear, but was not properly dressed to be able to stalk it on the ice. (His clothes were too dark). So, he lay down on the ice. Every once in a while he would raise his head (just like a seal does when napping on the ice, keeping watch for polar bears). Every time he raised his head the polar bear (getting closer each time) would stop and cover his nose. The bear figured he was getting over on this seal, and stalked the hunter until the tables were turned.

Precious story, and a lot better told by the guy I heard if from (Richard Nelson, ENCOUNTERS on National Public Radio) than I told it here.

I will go search the web now.

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Old March 13, 2009, 08:14 AM   #36
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Quote:
Thanks for the info, and hopefully I dont develop a reputation around here as "the guy that was stupid enough to shoot a deer with a 9mm" or something like that.
Quote:
Well thanks for all the advice folks. I think Ive decided that unless Im starving to death, and something is wrong with every other gun around here, Ill leave the 9mm for things its better suited for.

After reading your thread, I do not think you will be perceived at stupid. I think you will be thought of as perceptive enough to ask and wise enough to listen. Perhaps even tenacious enough to argue.

Any way you look at it, it is all good.

John
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Old August 21, 2009, 11:43 PM   #37
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There's nothing wrong with hunting with a 9mm if you have the skill to make the shot (legality by state varies). At least no more wrong than hunting w/ a bow. Any handgun cartridge excluding 357&44mag are roughly equivalent to bow hunting. keep ranges low and shot placement on point and you are good to go.


an under-appreciated fact is that the 9mm is the best (most) penetrative handgun round excluding magnums. See box o' truth if u disagree. correct me if i'm wrong but accuracy and penetration are first and foremost in hunting and 9mm has both in spades.
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Old August 22, 2009, 06:45 AM   #38
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Haven't I read where Stephen Camp has taken some small Texas deer with a 9MM? Maybe I am mistaken, but I think he's done it with a Browning Hi Power or a long slide STI 1911 in 9MM or both.
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Old August 22, 2009, 06:48 AM   #39
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"Hi-Point, blah, blah, blah,; 9mm for hunting...blah, blah, blah.." Enough said about the OP's judgment!
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Old August 22, 2009, 07:33 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Littlehoov
...Well thanks for all the advice folks. I think Ive decided that unless Im starving to death, and something is wrong with every other gun around here, Ill leave the 9mm for things its better suited for....
Good call and good for you for asking the question first and then listening to the excellent advice offered. Stick with that method and you'll learn a lot and get a reputation for being a smart guy who does his homework and makes decisions based on the facts and careful thought.

Now it's time to start saving for a handgun in a proper hunting caliber to take along! If you like the semi-auto platform over revolvers take a look at the 10mm and the .460 Rowland. If you like revolvers anything from a 4" .357 and up will do. Another option is to get a good .22 handgun and use it for hunting squirrels and rabbits. You might not get a shot at a deer but having the option to pull out the .22 and pick off a rabbit to put in the pot for supper would be nice. Sure you could use your deer rifle but you'd have nothing left but ears and a tail.

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Old August 22, 2009, 09:12 AM   #41
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Not a .40cal
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Old August 22, 2009, 06:25 PM   #42
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I'd recomend a XTP round, or the winchester SXT (reviews only, never seen it).

147 grain.

Personally, although I wouldn't recomend it...

As long as you were VER good with it and ONLY took perfect shots (No rear shots,shoulder shots,etc.), it is not bad.

I personally feel it is as ethical as the people who bow-shoot at 50-70 yards in my opinion...... Yes, they do, they are also skilled...BUT..I personally wouldn't do it regardless.

It boils down to if you can make the shot and have the skill to do it, AND the patience/smarts to turn down all but the PERFECT shots.
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Old August 22, 2009, 07:00 PM   #43
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Flame out

It did get hot fast, didn't it? But then....to the credit of y'all.....it got turned back past simmer. A nice set of ideas and cautions and suggestions.
I wouldn't use a nine for the reasons cited.
A couple of notes, though, about facts that show up as a matter of course in discussions like this one. The .22 has taken deer and other big game - we hear about that. The .22 and the .22 mag are the poachers cartridges. Sure. Remember, though, that we never hear about all the game that was wounded and ran never to be found after being shot with a .22. And poachers - I'll bet that "humane kill" is not in the average poacher's vocabulary.
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Old August 22, 2009, 07:08 PM   #44
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Personally, it wasn't so much the idea (in the OP) of using a 9mm, but the thought of deliberately setting out hunting with a 3.5" barrel compact 9mm that bothered me. Short sight radius drastically reduces accuracy at any sort of typical deer hunting range, and a 9mm our of a 3.5" barrel is hardly a great hunting setup.

To my mind, that would be like deliberately heading out with my CZ P-01 to take down a deer, and using that kind of tool for that kind of work just seems bizarre to me.
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Old August 23, 2009, 05:32 AM   #45
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I've seen plenty of deer dropped with a 243. My grandson has dropped a 6pt dressed at 145lbs with a 243 using a nosler bullet. The deer dropped after 30 yards DEAD, Looked like a handgranade hit his heart. I have drilled them through the heart with an 30-06 and had them run 3 times as far. The 243 has dropped black bear quite well also.
I have seen 7mm mags on up only wound deer because the bullet had too thick of a jacket which resulted in little expansion. I use either a 257 Roberts or a 270 for ALL my hunting. Matching bullet to game is crucial.

The 9mm has dispatched quite a few deer by LEO's on patrol, it has everything to do with bullet placement. I agree with the 147gr Ranger or 127gr ranger. I prefer the 147gr myself. Personally I can pick off a gallon jug at 100yds offhand with a 45acp quiter consistantly, but then again I have shot in comp. for years and shoot weekly. At 25 yards I can usually shoot a 3-4 inch group offhand with a good semi. Saying this I wouldn't feel all that comfy shooting a deer at 25-35 yards even with a 357 magnum. I would only consider a 9mm on deer if it was a survival situation.
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Old August 23, 2009, 09:01 AM   #46
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Old November 16, 2009, 08:45 PM   #47
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I keep reading a lot on this matter.

You see, i have a Hi-Point 9mm carbine with a bunch of upgrades and a scope. Its mostly for shooting paper, but plan on taking it hunting the very small deer here in SWFL. It is legal.

Now, don't bother with the humane issue, I've decided that is just white noise. My family has been taking PA deer (way bigger) with .22LR since the dawn of time... reliably.

It's not my gun of first choice, but my .300 WinMag is way overkill for the puny varmints that pass for deer here.

Most guys here use .308's, which is considered "the gun" of choice for dear... also overpowered, IMO.

Last time my hunting party got a dear, it was with a .308 and a soft point bullet. It still went clean through. It was a 30yd shot from a tree stand. It hit a rib and kept going through several vitals... an obvious kill shot.

Back to the 9mm... I'm no expert marksman, but even I can shoot within a 3" pattern form 100 yards with the 9mm scoped. My wife can put one bullet after another in the same hole at 20 yards.

Most shots that I have seen have been less than 50 yards in the woods. And giving the above accuracy of the gun in question, I have no doubt about hitting where I aim. Recoil is minimal and I can reacquire the target in a matter of a second.

I am confidant that the 9mm will take a dear, particularly after reading about taking hog with handgun 9mm. The longer barrel adds 200 to 400 fps out of the chute. Making a 9mm carbine perform roughly the same as a .357 magnum handgun, which many consider fine. The longer barrel (with the added ballistics advantage) and the controllability of a rifle with a scope, I feel, makes it leaps beyond simply shooting an animal with a pistol.
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Old November 17, 2009, 11:48 AM   #48
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I don’t doubt that the 9mm round could get the job done at close range…but stick with your rifle that’s why you have it.

Also, since when is the .243 not adequate for whitetail deer? I can’t believe what I’m reading. The .243 Winchester is just fine for medium sized game AND even larger game but will require a clean accurate shot, which is invariable in book.
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Old November 17, 2009, 02:10 PM   #49
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See my post at the top of the page...

There are dozens upon dozens of cartridges that are suited to different tasks. Use ethical judgment on what to carry in the woods.

Most experienced hunters will state the minimum for ethical deer hunting with handguns is 700lb/ft. 9mm= 450lb/ft is typical. 9mm is not a suitable cartridge for deer, period. No matter how you try to justify it. End of discussion.
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Old November 17, 2009, 03:31 PM   #50
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Oh, its also perfectly legal to shoot a deer with a 9mm here in the state of Missouri, so lets get that comment out of the way too.
I'm not worried about the legality of it but I have spent a lot of time in other states hunting, I am a handgun hunter and basically what I find is summarized below.

Handguns
Handguns, other than muzzleloading, must have a barrel at least 4 inches long and must fire a bullet of .243-inch diameter or larger. The handgun cartridge case, without the bullet, must be at least 1.16 inches long.

Full metal-jacketed bullets are not permitted.

Handguns are not permitted on any military areas.
Some types of handgun cartridges legal for deer hunting include:
.357 Magnum
.41 Magnum
.44 Magnum
.44 Special
.45 Colt
.45 Long Colt
.45 Winchester Magnum
.35 Remington
.357 Herrett.

Some illegal handgun cartridges for deer hunting are 38 Special, 38 Smith and Wesson, 38 Colt New Police, 38/200, 38 Long Colt, 38 Super, 38 ACP, 38 Colt Auto, 45 ACP, 45 Automatic and 45 Auto Rim. All 25/20, 32/20 and 30 carbine ammunition is prohibited also.

I have used a 38 super where it was legal but I'll never do it again, can't guarantee a clean kill and I don't like having to shoot anything twice, the 9 is a small step back from the 38 super and based on that I wouldn't use it.

No matter what handgun I use, (mostly 44 mag now but I used a 357 mag for 25 years or better), I always use JSP for the penetration and some expansion. I have seen bad things happen with HP bullets and I will not use them for hunting. Not even in a 22 for rabbit or squirrel.

A 124 gr 9MM JSP bullet at 50 yards will break a deers shoulder and put him down for the finishing shot. I wouldn't try it an any range over 60 yards. Just an opinion from an old dinosaur.

Reason I won't use a 38 super is I bounced a HP off a deers skull at 135 yards and I had to shoot him again when he regained consciousness. My first bullet only left a lead mark, didn't even cut skin. It's also why I won't shoot a deer over 100 yards with a handgun and try to stay under 65 yards. I was young and dumb, now I am older and more careful about pulling the trigger. I don't feel the need for iffy shots anymore.
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