Do people really think you must Overnight UPS a gun to an FFL?

[tjhands]

That it is ILLEGAL to not Overnight a gun via UPS to an FFL or manufacturer is one of the most parroted lines of ignorance on the interwebbery today. You, as a private citizen, can legally send a handgun via Ground UPS shipping to an FFL licensee.

Yes, yes, you are breaking UPS' policy of notification, but you are NOT breaking a law. Surely most can see a difference therein?

Yes, yes, your insurance on the package is voided if something goes wrong and it's damaged in transit, but that's such an infrequent occurrence as to be practically disregarded. The insurance risk notwithstanding, it's still LEGAL to do so.

All this being said, I send handguns though my FFL, as he charges me only a few bucks to ship it, but if someone didn't have such a good deal going with their FFL, shipping a gun via UPS Ground would be an appealing and LEGAL alternative.

OK, I'm sure that many folks are going to be typing feverishly and linking me to incomplete BATFE passages to evidence me of their convictions, but it's just not true. Instead of getting a kick out of it, and watching you humiliate yourselves, I'll post the REAL info. Right here. This is from the BATFE website. The highlighted words are for your assisted understanding. Nowhere does it say that the gun mist be Overnight delievered to be LEGALLY shipped.


Here is the language from the actual statute and regulation cited in the ATF FAQs:

18 USC § 922(e)

It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped; except that any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of the trip without violating any of the provisions of this chapter [18 USCS §§ 921 et seq.]. No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package, luggage, or other container that such package, luggage, or other container contains a firearm.


27 CFR § 478.31 Delivery by common or contract carrier.


(a) No person shall knowingly deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce to any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped: Provided, That any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of that trip without violating any provision of this part.

[chris in va]

So you're trying to say we can legally UPS ground ship a handgun or rifle to an FFL or manufacturer without notifying UPS what is in the box?

[Whirlwind06]

Yes, yes, your insurance on the package is voided if something goes wrong and it's damaged in transit, but that's such an infrequent occurrence as to be practically disregarded. The insurance risk notwithstanding, it's still LEGAL to do so.

Maybe if I'm shipping a Hi-point back for service.
A custom 1911, I'll spend the extra $40.00

[protectedbyglock]

Yeah, really, whirlwind. I had a guy send me a nice shotgun once and the stock got snapped right off at the reciever in transit. It went FedEx ground without insurance.

[tjhands]

Chris, I'm saying (and, more importantly, BATFE is saying) that, in accordance with BATFE rules (read: LAWS), you needn't inform UPS that there's a handgun in the box you are shipping, as long as it's being sent to a manufacturer or a licensee (FFL).

If you choose to send it this way, you will most likely be asked to describe the item you are shipping. If you choose to be dishonest (read: NOT illegal) and say that the box contains chess pieces, and that box and contents become damaged, you are obviously on your own as UPS will rightfully reject your claim.

All I'm saying - and by "me" I mean the BATFE (the LAW) - is that it's LEGAL to ship a handgun to an FFL via UPS Ground.

[M1911]

Yes, yes, you are breaking UPS' policy of notification, but you are NOT breaking a law.

The ATF FAQ says that federal law requires you to notify the common carrier:

(B8) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier? [Back]

A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b8

So it appears that their interpretation of 922(e) is different than yours. I'll go with theirs.

[Huey Long]

The law says that when you send a gun via a private carrier, you must inform them that there's a gun in the package. If you inform them, they will require it to be sent overnight per their company policy. If you don't inform them, you have broken the law.

[tjhands]

M1911, you are quoting the BROAD passage. My quote is of the more precise, and thus more germane, passage of the BATFE rules (read: LAWS).

Any questions? Call BATFE and ask. I promise you that they'll have to look their own laws up and will eventually confirm exactly what I am quoting to you.

Precision always wins over generalities. Except where women are concerned, but that's another thread.

[tjhands]

The law says that when you send a gun via a private carrier, you must inform them that there's a gun in the package. If you inform them, they will require it to be sent overnight per their company policy. If you don't inform them, you have broken the law.

Wrong, you have broken THEIR POLICY ("their" being UPS) as cited by my detailed post.......did you not read it? It's the most detailed post you'll find in their laws.

I mean, you can believe the more vague wordings, and what do I care if you do? I'm just citing the laws as they've written them.

Again, call them if you've got a question.

[NavyLT]

The BATFE has admitted, in writing, on government letterhead, I think freakshow10mm has a copy of it, that their FAQ is wrong. Written notification is not required to the carrier (UPS or FEDEX) if the package is either not leaving the state or going to a license holder.

Let me ask you this, for those quoting the FAQ as law, let's say you go down to FEDEX and TELL them there is a gun in the package and it goes by air. Have you met the requirement of the law that you think exists? NO. You have NOT notified that carrier IN WRITING as the law requires.

However, the notification, BY LAW, is only required for packages leaving the state, containing a firearm, going to a non-licensee.

[hikingman]

Compliance with UPS policy, that's one point. There are other options for non-overnight shipping, eh? Go Fedex Ground.

[M1911]

tjhands, the ATF FAQ makes a very simple statement:

Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm.

I've learned that the laws themselves are often relatively opaque and the simple text doesn't necessarily mean what you think it means. For example, in most MA law, a shotgun is not a firearm. Yup, you read that right. There is a section in MA law that defines the word "firearm" in a weird and wonderful way.

The statement above is the ATF's interpretation of 922(e). You may disagree with it. I may disagree with it. The ATF may even be incorrect. But I'm not going to be their test case. If you have a written statement to the contrary from the ATF main office, post a scan of it.

[Brian Pfleuger]

My FFL thought it was the law... until they got my gun from Buds via USPS 2-3 day priority.

[NavyLT]

[laytonj1]

My FFL thought it was the law... until they got my gun from Buds via USPS 2-3 day priority

The overnight requirement is for a common carrier (UPS, Fedex) not the USPS (US Post Office).


As far as calling the BATF, I wanted to ship a handgun to a private party in my same state. BATF said I must go thru a FFL.... They don't even know what some of the laws are. Call the same office, get a different person and you'll get a different answer.

If you want to lie to the shipper to save a few bucks and risk a complete loss should your gun go missing or damaged in shipment then that's the type person you are.

Remember, the reason behind UPS and Fedex's overnight requirement was because of the high theft rate.

Jim

[NavyLT]

Compliance with UPS policy, that's one point. There are other options for non-overnight shipping, eh? Go Fedex Ground

What's the difference? FEDEX policy requires it go by next day air as well.

If you want to lie to the shipper to save a few bucks and risk a complete loss should your gun go missing or damaged in shipment then that's the type person you are.

But, it is not illegal, if shipping to a licensee, just against FEDEX/UPS policy and possibly the individual's conscience.

Here's what I did... went to Fedex/KINKO's. Told the FEDEX shipping employee I was sending a handgun to T/C for repair. He asked to look in the package. I said sure. He opened the package, looked inside, sealed it up, asked "Ground or Air?" So tell me, what would you do in THAT situation! I did not hesitate in my answer and saved about $50 in shipping costs. Notice I did NOT give WRITTEN notice to Fedex of the shipment and broke no laws. If they lost my gun would I be SOL? Sure. My Contender came back from T/C to my house Fedex ground in about 6 weeks.

[tjhands]

If you have a written statement to the contrary from the ATF main office, post a scan of it.

Mmmmmm yes, I believe Mr. LT's letter is a sufficient and clear answer to your request.

Anything else?

[tjhands]

If you want to lie to the shipper to save a few bucks and risk a complete loss should your gun go missing or damaged in shipment then that's the type person you are.

Would you rebuke someone for not insuring themselves against house fire? Why not?

It's not illegal if they choose not to insure themselves against fire and it's demonstrably not illegal if they choose not to inform the common carrier (UPS) that they are shipping a firearm to a licensed recipient.

[orionengnr]

Here's what I did... went to Fedex/KINKO's. Told the FEDEX shipping employee I was sending a handgun to T/C for repair. He asked to look in the package. I said sure. He opened the package, looked inside, sealed it up, asked "Ground or Air?" So tell me, what would you do in THAT situation! I did not hesitate in my answer and saved about $50 in shipping costs.

Following the advice posted on a similar thread about three years ago, I did exactly this. Walked out thinking I had done okay, and had not lied to or defrauded anyone.

Got a phone call about six hours later from FEDEX. They would not honor the contract we had entered into. Bottom line, I got tagged the additional $40-50, the gun got delivered. Lesson learned.

The legal argument is nothing new. Do a search and you'll come up with dozens of threads. The argument will go on, and until someone becomes a legal test case, I'm not going to lie or try to get over.

[Hkmp5sd]

Yes, yes, your insurance on the package is voided if something goes wrong and it's damaged in transit, but that's such an infrequent occurrence as to be practically disregarded.

The reason UPS/FED Ex want you to ship is to minimize the chances of one of their employees stealing the firearm. There are more controls on overnight packages than general ground delivery. That sticker "TO: Joe's Gun Store" might give them a hint that something interesting is inside the box and they might want to re-route it to their car instead of the next brown truck.

[charleym3]

I went through all of these mental gymnastics before I sent my revolver back to S&W. I ended up going FEDEx third day. I notified them that I was shipping sporting goods. They returned it UPS overnight. They have more money than I do.

[NavyLT]

The reason UPS/FED Ex want you to ship is to minimize the chances of one of their employees stealing the firearm. There are more controls on overnight packages than general ground delivery. That sticker "TO: Joe's Gun Store" might give them a hint that something interesting is inside the box and they might want to re-route it to their car instead of the next brown truck.

And, so we, the consumer, have to pay 3X as much shipping cost to keep THEIR employee's from stealing OUR stuff! and you are absolutely correct that is the reason they require it, is to keep their employees from stealing it and having to explain to the BATFE how they lost a firearm.

[Average Joe]

I was told by UPS that when they know a firearm is being shipped, it stays with the driver at all times. Or at least they will keep an eye on it....I don't know if that's BS or not, but that's the reason they gave when I asked why I had to tell them I was shipping a firearm....

[Maverick1950]

I thought that people simply told the FedEx agent when handing them the package that it contained a gun. What do people do to comply with the "written" requirement?

[NavyLT]

I thought that people simply told the FedEx agent when handing them the package that it contained a gun. What do people do to comply with the "written" requirement?

You are absolutely correct. And that is because there is no written notification requirement, unless the firearm is being shipped to a non-licensee in another state. In that case - being shipped to a non-licensee in another state - the shipment and the transfer of the firearm to an out of state resident that would occur, in most cases, would be illegal anyway.