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Old March 12, 2009, 03:23 AM   #76
longrifles, Inc
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Quote:
I get the feeling that some folks on here are pretty anti-leo which is fine...everybody's got their issues, I don't like crotch rockets or domestic beer, but the whole "jack booted thug" thing and Gestapo references by some is both amusing and annoying. I would like some informed suggestions from the folks who have never executed a warrant how to go about hitting a potentially violent house full of gang members or dopers without using the dreaded SWAT tactics? No pie in the sky feel good, politically correct answers. Imagine that YOU were the first guy in the stack and tell me how to do it.
I'm not a policeman. I've not spent one day on the force. I have however worked with LE on the local, state, and federal level. My uncle is a retired police chief for a suburb of Minneapolis. One of my good friends here in Baghdad is a former south central Los Angeles patrol officer.

This does not qualify me as a cop and I don't pretend to think that it does. I do however get a good glimpse of how things are because I'm accepted into that inner circle. I've heard the stories and I know the mentality. I know the character traits. Cops have their own little society and it has evolved into an "US verses THEM mentality." It's even worse at the Federal level cause now you have the word "agent" attached to your name and somehow this is interpreted to mean that we minions are all indentured to you. Its why the majority of you all keep to yourselves at home and have very few (if any) friends outside of work.

After all, it is a jungle "out there."

Your job is difficult and under appreciated. I totally agree. No one here has suggested otherwise. A lot of other jobs carry risk too. PSD assets here in Iraq also have a daunting task. They assume huge personal risk and liability. They too are the first to be cast to the wolves when things go to hell. I've worked in parallel with Blackwater USA (now called Xe for some stupid reason) for 2 years and 9 months. I've witnessed in 1st person some of their mistakes. Know though that for every screw up they've had, there's a 1,000 things they've done right.

Guess what? No one really gives a _hit.

My point is if you can't handle the job, get out and go work for UPS or a cake bakery. Whining about how daunting, risky, and thankless your job is on a gun site forum is pretty weak and it serves as a very poor attempt to distract from the heart of the real matter at hand:

Unannounced warrant sweeps trample on what this country is supposed to be all about.

It is an ineffective practice that needs to go away. You sit there advocating it when you should be refusing it because you TOO are an American citizen. Peel the blue 5.11 shirt off and take away your badge and your just like the rest of us. I often think that LE forgets this.

Now, to directly answer your question of how to do it when I'm on point with my shield and little pistol:

1st. I don't. There is no stack, there is no battering ram.

I fall back to what SWAT "really" means: Sit Wait And Talk. (a joke, but with a point)

I Sit until the sun comes up

I Wait until the people being served/arrested leave the house and I have a visual confirmation. (I know it's bad PR to profile but does a 60 year old woman really fit the portrait of a banger dealing crack or meth?)

I And as I move in to serve the warrant.

I Talk as they are served.

OR

I use "all of my training and experience as a police officer" to realize that these are not the people I thought they were and I start yelling abort at the top of my lungs so that I don't violate their civil rights because regardless of anything else these are my fellow citizens. Doing so greatly reduces the need to consider "opportunity, ability, and jeopardy". I also do this because it also puts my people at unnecessary risk and liability. Remember, our safety is also a major consideration.

The point is I find another way.


Quote:
Imagine that YOU were the first guy in the stack and tell me how to do it.
I'll tell you that as the point on a stack I know that once I feel that squeeze on my shoulder I am the final decision maker and the events that follow ultimately rest on my decision to enter that house or to stand fast.

Just how many more of these balloons do you need to see?


Last edited by longrifles, Inc; March 12, 2009 at 04:45 AM.
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Old March 12, 2009, 10:13 AM   #77
Ben Towe
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Whoa. This is getting a little crazy. All cops don't want to be the Gestapo. I dare say that most warrant mistakes are due to stupidity on some losers part and not cops wanting to relive the Third Reich. I don't know whether it should be stopped or not, I was just wondering if there would be any recourse if you were charged for shooting someone you thought to be a criminal. The cop kicking in the door is just doing his job, the brass who gave an order with bad intel, or the guy who gave the brass bad intel is the one responsible. Corruption, screw-ups, and cover-ups are going to happen occaisionally in a beauracracy, getting tore all to pieces about it is foolish. I will say the map longrifles posted doesn't cast a very good light on raids though, assuming it is complete and accurate.
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Old March 12, 2009, 10:20 AM   #78
Hirlau
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I expect there to be anti-LEO sentiment on any forum. I welcome it. It keeps me informed on the current attitude of many. It betters me on "one-to-one" encounters with potential adversaries. It helps me to better empathize with non-law enforcement.

LongRifles, I've read your posts and the amount of hatred toward the Badge and those that wear it, is beyond me. Quote; " I've heard the stories and I know the mentality. I know the character traits. Cops have their own little society and it has evolved into an "US verses THEM mentality." You need to sit down with some of those in that "Inner Circle" you talk about, lay it on the table.

I served "No Knocks" and "Knock And Announce", sitting there for 12 hour stretches waiting for relief.


You trying to understand the job of a SWAT officer serving a warrant is like me telling my younger brother (The 1st Sergeant of 3/2); that I know what it's like going door-to-door in Bagdad. I would not dare and I was a Marine in peacetime.
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Old March 12, 2009, 10:26 AM   #79
Wagonman
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First, No one is whining about doing the Job. If anything it is yet another Col. Jessup moment

No one is advocating NKW unless there are exigent circumstances and reasons not to knock and announce.

The problem is there are people who aren't in the position to know what they are talking about speaking of prohibiting a proven Police practice because of a tiny percentage of errors.

The map with balloon had some subjective critera on it wouldn't you say?

But even stipulating to instances such as "paramilitary Police excess" I think you map proves my point. With the thousands of Warrants served to have that few bad outcomes Police are doing thier business in a very controlled accurate and Constitutional manner.

That is unless you adopt the "even one child killed by a gun is too many" Brady arguement. In which case I would refer you to any of the anti RKBA websites out there.


Quote:
As a pest control tech I could be civilly liable for spraying the wrong yard and could be charged with trespassing as well. Why should your career be any different?
Brent
I am not saying if you screw up you shouldn't be liable. I am saying that there is a difference between acting in good faith and acting with malice and criminal intent

To use your example: if you spray the wrong yard you should be liable for the damage --if any to said yard. But, unless you knew it to be the wrong yard and sprayed it anyway or "Hey that Joe's yard I don't like him or his beliefs and I know that this pesticide will kill his beloved daisys" you haven't done anything criminal.

Knowingly and Intentionally are words I have written on every criminal complaint I have ever prepared.
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Old March 12, 2009, 10:44 AM   #80
hogdogs
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LEMME FIRST SAY I AM NOT ANTI LEO!!!
I am, however, against excessive use of force. I assure you that if a full on, no flashing lights, no knock got served on my home while we are awake my wife will be the first one shot 2 COM! She will rise from her seat and confront faster than most men in this nation would. She has the "my babies" mentality that does not go away even though one child is 19 and the other is 17.
I would be like what the heck...
After we retire to our bedrooms I would be the first shot 2 COM as any noise signaling a burglary, robbery, or home invasion is met with SEVERE force and my paltry #3 buck out of the 20 gauge won't likely penetrate body armor.
KNOCK ON MY DOOR!!! I will answer it from the front porch and read your warrant and at the time attempt to explain that I am either the wrong guy or wrong home... Finally I will clear my home of my pets and await ya'lls search to satisfy that we are not the crooks you were after and that non of my firearms or ammo is stolen (READ: confiscated)...
Treat me with the respect my family deserves as law abiding citizens and I will reciprocate likewise as I understand that public servants in ya'lls line of work is a BUGGER!!! Heck I was 19 when I turned down a "sponsorship" to the academy offered by the highest ranked detective in the city I lived in. They wanted a level headed anti crime, thug,dope dealer, ganster type like me.
WHY?
Cuz at the time starting pay was a tick over 20-22K per year and I was making 18k cutting grass with no shirt in the florida sun and couldn't justify the uniform discomfort for few grand per year!
I respect the vast majority of LEO greatly... it is the procedures enacted by politicians "officials" in the force I do not respect.
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Old March 12, 2009, 04:10 PM   #81
BobH
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Very Good Dialog Going Here Folks

First, let me congratulate most here for having conducted a very informative and reasonable discourse on a very important issue. That we have those opposed - may I say strongly opposed - to certain police tactics and also have some well spoken, experienced LEOs participating is very encouraging and gratifying.

As I think I was the first to use the word 'Gestapo' in this thread, let me call to your attention the exact context in the following quote:

Quote:
My stance against the use of NKW and SWAT was a visceral thing, unrelated to informative data, until I started reading this thread. That there are now 50,000 NKW's and God only knows how many 'announce and enter' warrants annually is an abysmal black eye on the criminal justice system. All of you in LE risk becoming like minions at the lower level of the Gestapo who followed the direction of their superiors and left the thinking and value judgments to others. (NOTE: I did not here nor do I ever called LEOs the Gestapo; I merely point out how slippery some slopes are.) This issue - the increased militarization of LE - will indeed make LEOs the enemies of law-abiding, decent citizens if it is not stopped on constitutional grounds.
.

My use of the term was carefully considered and chosen because it conveys concisely all that can sometimes be wrong with law enforcement and with laws and those who make them. Again, NOTE THAT I WAS CAREFUL TO STATE THAT I WAS NOT CALLING OUR LEOs BY THAT NAME. The use was in the context of cautioning LEOs to continue to use their own judgment and common sense when doing their jobs instead of letting their zeal to perform well and please superiors supersede those considerations. I worked to get the attention I was after, but, apparently, some who read it were unable to read anything but a pejorative instead of the other carefully chosen words.
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Old March 12, 2009, 04:10 PM   #82
RedneckFur
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A Police Officer REASONABLY carrying out his duties and something untoward happens should be ajudicated. But, the penalty if any should be very slight
So the officer that kills an innocent man because of a typo gets sent home for a week without pay.

Meanwhile, the wife of the man who was killed now has to cope without her husband. His children have to grow up without a father.

I cant help but feel that the officer is getting away with manslaughter. Were a firefighter to die on an incident where I am IC, as a result of my orders, or negligence, I can be charged with his death, even if I am acting in good faith. My division's position is your training and experience prepare you to do your job. If you're unable to perform your duties, or fail at them, you will be held responsible, even criminally. I guess all agencies aren't so strict.

In all honesty, It seems to me that maybe you regard civillians as lesser beings that officers. Once again, I hope that I'm wrong.
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Old March 12, 2009, 04:16 PM   #83
MeekAndMild
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Read between the lines Meek on all of those links, except the last one
OK, I read between the lines and it looks like white spaces to me. Maybe you have your screen color set differently? What do you see, yellow?

You asked for some evidence to justify my concern that one of the risks is that criminals can easily pose as police officers and execute their own no knock searches. The more I read of this, also reading the information that "longrifles Inc" posted about abusive no-knock cases, the more I think that the alarmists are right.
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Old March 12, 2009, 04:17 PM   #84
Wildalaska
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Quote:
So the officer that kills an innocent man because of a typo gets sent home for a week without pay.

Meanwhile, the wife of the man who was killed now has to cope without her husband. His children have to grow up without a father.

I cant help but feel that the officer is getting away with manslaughter. Were a firefighter to die on an incident where I am IC, as a result of my orders, or negligence, I can be charged with his death, even if I am acting in good faith. My division's position is your training and experience prepare you to do your job. If you're unable to perform your duties, or fail at them, you will be held responsible, even criminally. I guess all agencies aren't so strict.

In all honesty, It seems to me that maybe you regard civillians as lesser beings that officers. Once again, I hope that I'm wrong.
You are.

WildthiswholethreadhasturnedintoascreechfestAlaska ™
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Old March 12, 2009, 05:08 PM   #85
BobH
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Trying NOT to Make this a P!$$!ng Contest

First, let me refresh everyone's memory about the de-policing definition and why I criticized it as being a political statement by LEOs who chose to act in this manner and suggested that they weren't doing their jobs.

Quote:
Quote:
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:

De-policing is a "law enforcement strategy in which police avoid accusations of racial profiling by ignoring traffic violations and other petty crimes committed by members of visible minorities." 1 In a sense de-policing is the opposite of racial profiling.

De-policing represents a de-facto police strike, where the police withdraw an aspect of their crime prevention services. It is a practical police protest at perceived political interference in their day-to-day task of policing.
And a refresher on exactly what I said about it:
Quote:
Quote:
This sounds to me like someone on the public payroll refusing to do his/her job. That would - or should - be grounds for firing said public employee. Certainly, if I had ever refused to do my job as a political statement (I spent my career in the private sector) I would have been fired.

It is not enough to operate in good faith and exercise bad judgment, or worse. When anyone is given such power and authority, he had better be competent to handle it or be prepared to suffer the consequences. If you are not prepared for that, I suggest you resign before you do further harm.
And the response:
Quote:
No it is not refusing to do my job. My job is to enforce laws, make arrests and document criminal activity.

There is a huge difference between answering my radio calls and patrolling my beat and doing Police work.

De-Policing is not a political statement it is being minimally observant of the climate you operate in
How dare you insinuate I am not prepared for the job I have been doing for over twelve years spent mostly in areas you would be hesitant to frequent.
Before proceeding further, I must hasten to state that my choice of the term 'you' in the last sentence of the second quote above was a poor one for I did not intend to be critical of any specific individual, especially not about someone who's performance or personality I do not know. I should have said, "If ONE IS not prepared for that, I suggest HE resign before HE DOES further harm." I apologize for giving even unintended offense.

At the risk of being accused of pouring fuel on the fire, it seems to me that some professional detachment is in order. I've included the quotes so that all may refer to them in this one place. I don't believe that I've taken them out of context, but will welcome any suggestion and evidence to the contrary.

I also must state that I am not anti-LEO. LEOs are, unfortunately, necessary adjuncts to modern society. We, the citizens, create them, staff them, and give them tremendous legal and physical power. The very fact that they are given such power and authority is the very reason that we should be eternally vigilant and critical of their behavior and performance. The tendency to abuse privilege, power and authority is written throughout the history of mankind; so it is not unreasonable to exercise caution - even extreme caution - when we give it. Those are the reasons for my very stringent criticism of LEOs.

Now to the gist of the post.
This entire exchange illustrates why NKWs and even SWATs are dangerous. Here we have evidence of actual information being misunderstood - possibly intentionally, possibly accidentally. The first quotation above establishes the definition of what was later criticized, to wit, ". . . where the police withdraw an aspect of their crime prevention services. It is a practical police protest . . . " You can see in the third quote what I can only perceive as a redefinition and mis-characterization of the source statement and denial of criticism by substituting other argument not germane to the one presented. I must admit, however, that the statement, "There is a huge difference between answering my radio calls and patrolling my beat and doing Police work." baffles me. Also, I fail to see how a 'practical police protest' can be anything other than political. I need to be better informed here.

Now, I suspect that the response was triggered by what was considered a personal attack or insult caused by of my poor choice of words in the sentence as cited above (IOW it was my fault); but it points out how easily information and intent are so easily misunderstood and how personal feeling, anger, and adrenalin release intervene. And we don't have any stimulus here as would be present in serving a warrant.

Let's all step back and reassess what we've just observed then reflect on why there could possibly be some anti-LEO sentiment. Let's also reflect on why there could possibly be some resentment by LEOs of a critical public. But, most importantly, let's observe how easily things can be misconstrued and fall out of control beyond the intent of anyone.

I'm not smart enough to have contrived the scenario, as played out, to support my aversion to NKW and SWAT and the general militarization of LE.
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Old March 12, 2009, 05:29 PM   #86
Al Norris
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WildthiswholethreadhasturnedintoascreechfestAlaska ™
If it had, it would have been locked down, Ken.

So far, this thread has been mild, compared to the ones that we were plagued with in the old L&P forum.

Yes, tempers have flared a bit. Yes, some have bashed all cops. Yes, some have told us citizens that we just don't understand. So?

Not everyone that has posted has been abusive. Even those that some think are, are actually pretty toned down, in comparison to what was paraded by in the past.

I understand the reasoning from both sides. The individuals that have been posting here, have made good their claims. Many jurisdictions make it extremely tough, if not impossible for those officers to serve NKW's. Likewise, others seem to call out SWAT at the drop of a hat.

There must be a middle ground somewhere, but by-and-large, that ideal is still being sought. Hopefully, these kinds of discussion can benefit both the citizen and law enforcement. That is only going to happen, if in the future, we all refrain from painting with the broad brush.

Since we are now at a point where the original OP's questions have been answered, and have drifted almost entirely off topic. Since we are also now talking in circles and some are even talking past each other, I'm closing this thread.

I would at this time, like to thank those involved in law enforcement, for maintaining the high road. I also thank those who put forth reasoned responses on the civilian side, for maintaining the purpose of this forum.

It is only by having honest discussion that we can see past any perceived differences and meet one another on common ground.
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