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Old March 10, 2009, 09:51 AM   #26
rzach
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http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-onlin...21379779.shtml

There is a lot of fake cops around the link is to a killing done by one
below would be a very bad thing for any woman.



Man held in fake cop incident


Nassau County authorities arrested a Jacksonville man Thursday after a bizarre encounter during which a woman reported being stopped by a bogus cop.

The woman said she was driving on Florida 200 in Nassau County on April 1 when she was pulled over by someone in a white Ford Crown Victoria with a blue light on its dash.

When she stopped, a man dressed in a blue uniform checked her driver's license and insurance card and released her after a warning.

Dale Walter Ruhnau, 47, was charged with impersonating a police officer. Ruhnau, who is not a law enforcement officer, was being held Friday in the Nassau County jail.
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Old March 10, 2009, 10:17 AM   #27
Wagonman
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This is at its very core not a legal problem. It is a political problem. Politicians need to grow a set and ban virtually all no knock raids. And they need to ban the practice of police pretending to be secret agents. Cops should be in readily identifiable uniforms at all times when they are engaging in official business.
So you don't wasnt any UC Cops, or "Tact" cops, decoy cops. seems like you want to throw baby out with bathwater.

I try to see the other side of issues but sometimes I think people go a bridge too far in their animus to Law Enforcement.

Bad things happen in life, no Cop goes to work to hit 269 Main street instead of 296 Main street. I feel to assign bad intentions and maliciousness does not advance the argument.

If you have the misfortune of having a "No Knock Warrant" mistakenly served at your residence put your hands up and comply and Litigate.

If is isn't a Police raid do what you gotta do.

However, I think that there are so few screw ups with No knock raids to make most of the dicussion moot, I compare it to the antis fixation on the .50. It's provocative to have grandma baking cookies and the SWAT team doing an entry. It is provocative to have a .50 blow up a watermelon through a ballistic vest.

Both instances do not happen in the real world with any meaningful regularity

Last edited by Wagonman; March 10, 2009 at 10:26 AM.
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Old March 10, 2009, 11:20 AM   #28
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No doubt strange things can happen if a 7 foot California giant can get caught up in a wrongful Virginia raid. What are the odds of that?

http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?se...ent&id=4694491
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Old March 10, 2009, 11:55 AM   #29
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Lets also look at the reality that sometimes police officers are involved in crime. I think it would not be a stretch to say that on more than one occasion actual police officers have illegally executed no knock raids on drug houses. Not often, and not something I am worried about, but someone dressed in black yelling police is not all that convincing when they just kicked down your door.
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Old March 10, 2009, 11:56 AM   #30
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I've introduced the mental side of this now let’s look at the physical: We got people on this forum bitching about a little gas getting squirted in their eyes when they shoot their AR's and M-4's. What is your performance going to be like when your eyes are groggy and glued shut from the sand man? A person's blood pressure lowers during sleep, (ever wonder why you’re so cold in the morning? Your core temperature is lowest during sleep) what's going to happen when you jump up? You’re liable to pass out. I know for a fact I'd fail it. It'd take a solid six months to a year of this kind of training to be anything close to effective. Who really wants to volunteer to be woken up multiple times a night by explosions and loud voices for the next 180 days? By the end of it you'll be as flaky as a sexually abused house cat.
While I agree that some people may be this way (and don't get me wrong, I'm a champion sleeper) but I had one experience that simulates this somewhat. My step-dad stepped out of the house one night to go on a death call (he's a funeral director/embalmer. And yes, I'm a bum, I still live at home) and forgot to disarm the alarm system. Of course it went off with it's seemingly 500 decibel speaker and I was up and moving within a second or so convinced we were being invaded. Would this happen every time? I don't know, but I'm inclined to think so. As I said in another thread, I'm paranoid by nature and anything unexpected like that puts me on high alert. Anyway, enjoying the responses, keep 'em coming! Thanks...
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Old March 10, 2009, 12:13 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by wagonman
However, I think that there are so few screw ups with No knock raids to make most of the dicussion moot, I compare it to the antis fixation on the .50. It's provocative to have grandma baking cookies and the SWAT team doing an entry. It is provocative to have a .50 blow up a watermelon through a ballistic vest.
Please take a look at the Cato map link I posted earlier. You are very mistaken about the number of these things that are botched. There are a lot of them and the number is growing as the police forces become increasingly militarized. The first time the police broke down the door to the wrong house and an innocent person was killed the whole no-knock warrant idea should have been banned. There is no reason for them, ever. The process for getting them is also stupidly easy. It often consists of nothing more than claiming an anonymous source said there are drugs being delt at address xxxxx. That's it. I could call in your address to the police and they could have a no knock warrant issued within the hour and be at your house tonight. Scary thought isn't it?

They say no knocks are needed so drug suspects won't flush evidence. If the person is a dealer they are going to be leaving the house eventually to sell some. The house can be entered when they are gone or the person can be apprehended outside the house. The only reason police today use them is because they have an ever increasing military ideology and staking a place out and doing a low key arrest just doesn't give the same rush as breaking down a door at 3am and getting to shove your gun in someone's face. I'm not sure what you call a country that allows these type of police activities but it sure isn't the USA anymore and I want my country back.
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Old March 10, 2009, 12:35 PM   #32
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I am sorry but at least in my jurisdiction it takes more than a CI to authorize a No Knock warrant. A CI gets you a target that needs to be watched. Everyone who goes in and out is IDed for a period of time. Licenses are run. Ownership is verified.

So it is not the fast and loose cowboy nonsense you and the Leftist Cato institute are purporting.

I am still troubled by the animus.

I also disagree with the notion of the Police becoming militarized. If SWAT was patrolling or answering Police calls on a regular basis you MIGHT have a point.

The Police are outgunned out there, I have been involved in several recoveries of AKs and ARs---I don't carry one. We also have had a rash of shootings with the 5.7 cartridge.

The reason for the 3am go time is there are not many bystanders milling about not for some rush. The rush is just a welcome byproduct.

Quote:
The process for getting them is also stupidly easy. It often consists of nothing more than claiming an anonymous source said there are drugs being delt at address xxxxx. That's it. I could call in your address to the police and they could have a no knock warrant issued within the hour and be at your house tonight. Scary thought isn't it?
It would be if it had a basis in reality
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Old March 10, 2009, 12:57 PM   #33
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Banning no knock warrants is a bad idea. However they should not be, and from my understanding in most jurisdictions are not, easy to get.

There should certainly be a higher standard for approving such warrants (from the police to the judge) than regular search warrants.
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Old March 10, 2009, 01:26 PM   #34
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This happened in Atlanta a couple of years ago, the indictment pretty well tells the story: Cops did a no-knock based on info supplied by a snitch, the cops claimed. The old lady fired at the door where the cops were trying to enter. The old lady missed, well trained cops shot each other up and killed the old lady, planted drugs at the scene, that they brought with them on the drug raid btw, after a search turned up nothing. Cops lied to investigators and tried to cover up their crime. What is not mentioned is that two of the cops were recently convicted of murder.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...g+raid+Atlanta
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Old March 10, 2009, 02:04 PM   #35
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I'm not sure what you call a country that allows these type of police activities but it sure isn't the USA anymore and I want my country back.
I think I like that. In fact the more I read it the more I like it.

Well said and very true. What you are describing is not the America I knew as a kid and it's not what I stood on yellow footprints for.
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Old March 10, 2009, 02:20 PM   #36
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Quote:
I'm not sure what you call a country that allows these type of police activities but it sure isn't the USA anymore and I want my country back.
I think I like that. In fact the more I read it the more I like it.

Well said and very true. What you are describing is not the America I knew as a kid and it's not what I stood on yellow footprints for.
yeah well considering no knock warrants have been around have been around almost since warrants existed, you must have been standing in those yellow footprints in 1861

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Old March 10, 2009, 02:31 PM   #37
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I am sorry but at least in my jurisdiction it takes more than a CI to authorize a No Knock warrant. A CI gets you a target that needs to be watched. Everyone who goes in and out is IDed for a period of time. Licenses are run. Ownership is verified.

So it is not the fast and loose cowboy nonsense you and the Leftist Cato institute are purporting.
Sounds like not all jurisdictions operate like yours.

Also, the Cato Institute is hardly "leftist." Attempting to pidgeonhole a source so that they can be more easily ignored is a time-honored tactic, but before you try to paint the Cato Institute as pushing some liberal agenda I recommend you peruse their website. In particular you should check out their materials on gun policy, economic policy, and environmental policy. They lean libertarian, not liberal. On many issues, they're seen as more conservative than most.

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There should certainly be a higher standard for approving such warrants (from the police to the judge) than regular search warrants.
In general, to some extent, there is. Many cases, like the one in Atlanta, involve officers falsifying information to get the warrant. The problem is that in many jurisdictions the only real qualification for getting a warrant certified for a no-knock (or the slightly less dangerous knock-and-announce) is that some form of easily destroyed evidence be involved (drugs, computer data, whatever).
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Old March 10, 2009, 02:42 PM   #38
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I am very grateful for what police do every day. I get very upset everytime I hear of one being injured while performing their duties. That being said I don't believe it would be far fatched for a citizen to defend themselves in situations previously mentioned. Police are not forced to choose their profession and they are there to defend us citizens from the criminals. If they mistake the citizen they are supposed to be protecting for the criminal they are after it is their butt that should be held liable. If the citizen does a good job of defending themselves from what could be perceived as a home invader, good for them. It is a crappy situation either way. :barf:
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Old March 10, 2009, 02:42 PM   #39
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Lets also look at the reality that sometimes police officers are involved in crime. I think it would not be a stretch to say that on more than one occasion actual police officers have illegally executed no knock raids on drug houses. Not often, and not something I am worried about, but someone dressed in black yelling police is not all that convincing when they just kicked down your door.
FOXNEWS.COM HOME > U.S.
Robbery Ring Disguised as Drug Raids Nets Convictions for Former LA Cops

Wednesday, January 30, 2008


LOS ANGELES — Two former police officers were convicted in federal court Wednesday of participating in a robbery ring that disguised home invasions as drug raids.

William Ferguson, 35, a former Los Angeles policeman, and his 33-year-old brother, Joseph, a former Long Beach officer, were convicted of charges including conspiracy to deprive people of their rights under color of law and conspiracy to possess marijuana and cocaine.

William Ferguson was found guilty of 13 charges and acquitted of five counts. His brother was convicted of three counts. Jurors deadlocked on 18 other counts.

Defense attorneys said they would appeal. Prosecutors did not immediately say whether they would retry the brothers on the deadlocked charges. Sentencing was set for April.

Prosecutors said the ring conducted about 40 robberies from 1999 to 2001 in which members would steal cash and drugs, then sell them on the street.

Fifteen people, including the ring's suspected leader, former LAPD Officer Ruben Palomares, have pleaded guilty in the investigation. Palomares worked with William Ferguson in the LAPD's scandal-tinged Rampart Division until both were fired in 2003. He testified against the brothers at trial.
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Old March 10, 2009, 03:05 PM   #40
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Of course, pnac, that just furthers WA's claim that the only people in any way likely to be the target of such crimes are those already involved in criminal activities (like dealers). I still think it's questionable whether policies that facilitate crimes are a great idea, whether the targets of those crimes are criminals or not.


I think the problem, and the reason getting any traction on this issue is so difficult, is that it's not really a clear-cut civil rights issue. Warrants are being issued, due process is observed, and while mistakes are made the intent is there to honor the rights of citizens.

The only real issue is public safety, and whether the gains made by issuing no-knock warrants outweigh what danger they pose to law-abiding citizens. Which, at the end of the day, isn't much...you can find a long list of instances of dead law-abiding citizens, but those are over the course of a couple decades. Much like school shootings, statistically these incidents don't happen.

I'd still argue that the upside isn't worth it, but I don't necessarily expect people to automatically accept that.
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Old March 10, 2009, 03:29 PM   #41
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The chances of being the victim of such a robbery are so incredibly small that I don't feel the need to specifically prepare for it. When this situation actually plays out it is highly publicized. I think that causes some of us to overestimate the probability of this happening.

I could get stuck by lighting, but I don't wear a lighting rod hat, and I could get hit by an asteroid, but I'm not going to go about preparing for that kind of situation either.

In the situation of somebody banging on my door in the wee hours of the morning I would look out of my peephole in the door and confirm that it isn't one of my neighbors with a dire emergency. After I saw that it looked like cops I would go to my room, shut and lock the door, call 911 and confirm weather it is the cops or not. If it was the cops I would cooperate with them even if I knew they had the wrong address rather than risk getting shot.
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Old March 10, 2009, 03:35 PM   #42
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In the situation of somebody banging on my door in the wee hours of the morning I would look out of my peephole in the door and confirm that it isn't one of my neighbors with a dire emergency. After I saw that it looked like cops I would go to my room, shut and lock the door, call 911 and confirm weather it is the cops or not. If it was the cops I would cooperate with them even if I knew they had the wrong address rather than risk getting shot.
Yeah, these aren't the kinds of warrants we're talking about here.
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Old March 10, 2009, 04:09 PM   #43
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JuanCarlos makes a couple of good points. The incidents ARE often over reported in the media, making it appear more common than it really is (we gunowners can identify with that, I think), but the benefits of no knock warrants aren't worth the risk.


Quote:
The only real issue is public safety, and whether the gains made by issuing no-knock warrants outweigh what danger they pose to law-abiding citizens. Which, at the end of the day, isn't much...you can find a long list of instances of dead law-abiding citizens, but those are over the course of a couple decades. Much like school shootings, statistically these incidents don't happen.

I'd still argue that the upside isn't worth it, but I don't necessarily expect people to automatically accept that.
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Old March 10, 2009, 04:54 PM   #44
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Much like school shootings, statistically these incidents don't happen.
Unlike school shootings these events are GOVERNMENT SANCTIONED.

Whether a criminal or not I do not believe anyone in this situation could be held responsible for defending themselves in this situation.

I do not believe that a drug dealer loses his right to defend his own safety from robbers when he deals drugs. If a drug dealer calls the police to report he is being robbed, should they reply, "sorry, we think you are a drug dealer lets see how this plays out."

In my mind a drug dealer has the same right to protect himself as a diamond dealer. Like a diamond dealer he does not have free license to rob or kill, but if someone comes into his house intending harm upon him I do not think he should sit there and take it. In the case of a no knock warrant I do not think it is reasonable to expect anyone to know who it is breaking into their house. As previously pointed out and supported by provided sources it is not unheard of for police to be involved in illegal drug raids. I am pretty sure there was a similar ring in NY and FL in the past decade.

I want statistics showing how many shootouts with criminals result from these warrants. Why can't the police grab them when they are out of the house? Is this a way to circumvent our arguably broken court system?
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Old March 10, 2009, 05:04 PM   #45
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In the thread about civil rights pertaining to arrest (sorry, don't know how to link), which is about cops showing up at the wrong address after a 911 call, a LEO mentions a no-knock warrant, which brings me to my question: If the police hit the wrong house in such an event (mine, theoretically), and I use deadly force, do I have any recourse against the inevitable charges that will be filed (provided I don't get shot to pieces)? I'm sure many of you feel the same way I do, if someone kicks in my front door in the dead of night, that someone is going to die. Anyway, does anyone know of this being sucessfully being dismissed? This happened a few years ago, in Tennessee actually, I think. Of course they killed the poor old man (he was in his 70s or 80s if I recall) while he was on the phone with the 911 dispatcher. He thought he was being robbed. Thoughts?
I believe the courts have ruled that when the police force entry into your home without a valid warrant, they're considered no different from any other housebreaker.
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Old March 10, 2009, 09:21 PM   #46
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My point in all this is if you really think you have the presence of mind to go from a dead sleep to 100% switched on in the fraction of a second it takes for a mob of people to invade your home in a manner that has been carefully rehearsed over and over and over again your ego is suffering from a serious yeast infection and you’re a prime example of spectators arrogance.
"Spectators' Arrogance." I have to endure many conversations, on a daily basis, in which I'd find that phrase helpful. I'm totally stealing it.

From the rec.guns FAQ:

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If you really think your time at the range is to prepare you for concealed carry situations, then always enact a scenario similar to your normal life. I always shoot in a wool suit with three VCR tapes in my left hand and a twelve pack under my right armpit.

Not a bad start, but even this "scenario" (make sure to use that word a lot, by the way) is unrealistic. I like to have my wife wake me up at 3:00 a.m., screaming "Shoot him! Shoot him!" Then, I can blast away in the *very environment* I'll need to know. It's a fabulous training technique - I've never been able to get that "sleepy eye goo" part right at the range - but it does have its drawbacks: we'll sure miss Fluffy.
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Old March 10, 2009, 10:16 PM   #47
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I can't speak for the rest of the country but I can assure you that in Florida, there is no such thing as a "No knock" warrant. Having written and executed well over a hundred warrants (mostly drug related) I can safely say that no judge in our judicial district (or any I've heard of) would sign off on a warrant if you put a no knock stipulation in it.

Can you get away with a short knock and announce? Sure. It all depends on the circumstances, the type of warrant, the suspects, the type of violation etc. If you are executing a warrant on a residence occupied by a group of armed gang members wanted for robbery, you can probably justify, from an officer safety standpoint, a short K&A. The courts recognize that serving a warrant is dangerous and unless there is obvious, intentional midconduct on the part of the officers, they will grant some leeway.

If you're hitting an indoor marijuana grow where the suspects are not known to be armed or violent, you'd better give a longer K&A. Why? Not as much obvious danger and it's nearly impossible to destory the evidence of a grow in 60 seconds. Now, if they see you coming and run back into the house...it's game on with no K&A required (they already know that you're there and they're apparently not going to cooperate and let you in)

The key (in Florida anyway) to the whole K&A thing is to allow a "reasonable" time for the occupants to answer the door. Now, define reasonable? It depends on many variables and is not set in stone. If we knock and no one answers but we can hear people scrambling around inside...we're coming in. We don't know if you're destroying evidence or getting a weapon.

As for hitting the wrong house, I have never personally seen how it can be done if you (as the officer writing/executing the warrant) do your job properly. We've all heard the horror stories so it does happen but thankfully, it's the exception. As mentioned by another poster, if you are on the receiving end of one of these exceptions, the best course of action is to cooperate immediately. Any attempts to do otherwise will be delt with. Remember that we don't know at that time that we're in the wrong house and will just assume that you're a BG with a gun and take the necessary action. It's not the time to try and engage in gunplay or dialog. Let the team secure the house and let the smoke clear...believe me, the mistake will make itself evident pretty quickly

Believe me in that there will be no doubt in your mind that it's the cops. My suggestion is live to sue as you'll have a great law suit if they hit the wrong house.

For those who have never written or executed a search warrant, I would suggest reading some to see the amount of work that goes into them. It's not rocket science but you have to have your ducks in a row
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Old March 10, 2009, 11:06 PM   #48
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How about some irony? After seeing this thread last night, I heard Sheriff Parker of the county just south of me (Tehama County, CA) on the radio this morning talking about having had several home invasions involving fake cops.

I don't have time now to locate documentation, but take it for what it's worth.
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Old March 10, 2009, 11:18 PM   #49
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Bottom line...No Knock Warrants should not be allowed.
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Old March 10, 2009, 11:18 PM   #50
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In Minneapolis MN cops raided an innocent family with six young children. The father shot at them through the bedroom door and the cops fired many rounds into the bedroom. It is a miracle no one was killed. The family got an apology. The cops got medals.

They claimed it wasn't their fault because they got bad information from an informant. We all know how reliable criminals and drug dealers are. I think several cops up the line of command should have been fired. These raids need to end.

By the way, the cops were searching for guns. How does that make you feel?

911 transscript and story
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Cops get medals
http://www.startribune.com/local/260...lightModules:1
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