The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > Law and Civil Rights

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old March 5, 2009, 09:32 AM   #1
Madrevar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: March 5, 2009
Posts: 2
Cuffed and Caged for Open Carry

3-2-09

12:30pm

Coon Rapids (Riverdale Crossing)

For reference, I begin this story carrying a CZ82 9x18mm in an all but unused Czech leather police holster, with thumb-break. I am wearing nothing but shorts/tshirt/sandals with only wallet/gun on me, with keys in left hand and beverage in right.

My girlfriend and I had just eaten at Chipotle and were leaving to pay my phone bill at the adjacent TMobile. After leaving Tmobile, we proceeded across the lot to my truck. I got as far as the rearend of my truck, when a Coon Rapids Police Department marked car flew in and stopped a few parking spots to the left and opposite my side, approximately 15 yards away. The Officer commanded, "Hey, you! Get over here!" Then, "Now turn around, up against the car!" This car was to my left parked next to my truck. I complied with all demands up to this point. As the Officer approached me, "DO YOU KNOW WHAT FRICKEN' CONCEALED CARRY MEANS?" As he puts my hands behind my head I reply, "Yes Sir." Then he asks, "Then why are you carrying out in the open like that?" I chose my words carefully, "Well, Officer my permit says 'Permit To Carry' not 'Concealed Carry'." He says, "I DON'T CARE WHAT THE FRICKEN PERMIT SAYS! ITS CALLED 'MINNESOTA CONCEALED CARRY LAW' FOR A REASON!" After disarming me and handing my pistol to his partner to be secured, he immediately started cuffing me. I ask, "Officer, may I ask why we are cuffing?" To which he replies, "So I can frisk you and put you in the car." At this point I am not sure what is going to happen, but start thinking a "Disorderly Conduct/Distubing The Peace" charge is in my future. After putting me in his squad, he and his partner and another officer deliberate on what to charge me with and if open carry is legal. After about ten minutes he comes back and starts asking me the rudimentary questions for his report, where I live, phone number, etc. After that he lets me out of the car, uncuffs me and gives me my keys and wallet back, but no gun yet. First he gives me the speil about how open carry is not the best idea, sheeple will call MWAG, and how if enough sheople would have been disturbed he would have charged me. He also told me that when and if I have law enforcement respond again I should be fine if I do as I did that day. He also admitted that he didn't have much experience with carrying off-duty much so he hasn't had to deal with it himself. All in all the Officers were polite and porfessional, even if a bit excessive with the detainment. He had me and the girlfriend get in my truck, hands my pistol and mag back to me through my window. I notice my previously-chambered round is missing, so I asked him to get that for me. We shook hands and I asked for his card. Then he went on his way.

No particular agenda on my part, just looking for comments and contructive criticisms from all. Thanks
Madrevar is offline  
Old March 5, 2009, 10:25 AM   #2
azredhawk44
Junior member
 
Join Date: September 28, 2005
Location: Mesa, AZ
Posts: 6,465
Quote:
He also admitted that he didn't have much experience with carrying off-duty much so he hasn't had to deal with it himself. All in all the Officers were polite and porfessional [sic], even if a bit excessive with the detainment.
Professional:

Quote:
pro·fes·sion·al (prə-fěsh'ə-nəl) Pronunciation Key
adj.

Of, relating to, engaged in, or suitable for a profession: lawyers, doctors, and other professional people.
Conforming to the standards of a profession: professional behavior.
Engaging in a given activity as a source of livelihood or as a career: a professional writer.
Performed by persons receiving pay: professional football.
Having or showing great skill; expert: a professional repair job.
n.
A person following a profession, especially a learned profession.
One who earns a living in a given or implied occupation: hired a professional to decorate the house.
A skilled practitioner; an expert.
pro·fes'sion·al·ly adv.


The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2006 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
No, he wasn't. I'd suggest he wasn't polite, either, by your description. He had his knickers in a twist, didn't know the appropriate response to the situation and went Bullcop McHardknuckles on you.

Considering the fact you're walking with a pretty girl on a sidewalk, nonchalantly, with a soda in one hand and car keys in the other, you weren't exactly a threat that merited the cuff'n'stuff treatment. A casual conversation with an initial warning to keep your hands clear of your holstered firearm would have easily sufficed.

(As would an actual understanding of the laws the officer is supposed to enforce...):barf:
azredhawk44 is offline  
Old March 5, 2009, 10:27 AM   #3
azredhawk44
Junior member
 
Join Date: September 28, 2005
Location: Mesa, AZ
Posts: 6,465
Quote:
My girlfriend and I had just eaten at Chipotle
Chipotle in my neck o' the woods sells beer to be consumed on premises. Do they do that in Minnesota? How is MN on carry in establishments that serve alcohol?
azredhawk44 is offline  
Old March 5, 2009, 10:37 AM   #4
vranasaurus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 16, 2008
Posts: 1,175
Even when and where open carry is legal you may still get hassled for doing so. It may not be right but sometimes it is just easier to avoid the hassle.
vranasaurus is online now  
Old March 5, 2009, 10:43 AM   #5
JWT
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 16, 2007
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 3,148
Quote : "how if enough sheople would have been disturbed he would have charged me."

Intersting concept that the LEO says a person can be arrested just because people are 'disturbed' with something they're doing. Seems obvious that some 'concerned citizen' was disturbed and called the police. The officer was anything but professional in his approach and obviously had no idea what he was doing.
JWT is offline  
Old March 5, 2009, 10:57 AM   #6
Madrevar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: March 5, 2009
Posts: 2
Yea our Chipotles do have beer, and in MN there is no special rules regarding carry in alcohol establishments, just no blood concentration over .04.
Madrevar is offline  
Old March 5, 2009, 10:59 AM   #7
chemgirlie
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 3, 2009
Location: WI
Posts: 331
Quote:
"how if enough sheople would have been disturbed he would have charged me."
People can march down the street in full Nazi dress and have it legally protected, and that certainly upsets lots of people. However, they are allowed to do so. If they can march through the streets and upset plenty of people in the process and have it legally protected, I see no reason why there should be a double standard for open carry.

Open carry is permitted in MN, it just isn't common. Here's the link to MN website: http://www.leg.state.mn.us/LRL/Issues/firearmcarry.asp

And here's the important bit:
Quote:
Governor Pawlenty signed Senate File 2259 into law (Laws of Minnesota 2005, chapter 83) on May 24, 2005. This act makes no distinction between "open carry" versus "concealed carry" and persons with a valid permit are allowed to carry using either method.
chemgirlie is offline  
Old March 5, 2009, 11:22 AM   #8
Shorts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 21, 2004
Posts: 1,484
Seems like you handled it fine.

It also sounds like some PDs need a fresh memo about OC.
Shorts is offline  
Old March 5, 2009, 12:02 PM   #9
KSFreeman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 9, 2001
Location: Lafayette, Indiana--American-occupied America
Posts: 5,416
Yeah, you can get hassled, but Rosa Parks was hassled too.

From October of 2008:

Saturday morning I was down to see a friend and then take her shooting at Eagle Creek. About 7:45 AM I stopped by a coffee shop on 54th before I dropped by the house. I had on a University of Texas shirt, olive SIG Tac pants and low top Columbia hiking boots. I was carrying a Les Baer 1911 in a Milt Sparks #TK60 (horsehide) and a double mag pouch, my knife and flashlight were visible as well. As it was warm and I was just going across the street for coffee, I left my baja shirt off.

I walked into the shop and walked right by a GIMP without any consideration that I was in Indy. I saw a uniform and did not think I would be hassled as no one bats an eye up here and all the other times I have open carried in Indy, no cops, deputies, or state troopers have said "boo!" to me. This time was different.

I walk in, buy two small black coffees, and talk to the countergirl about movies (I told her we were going to see "Appaloosa" in the evening). I pay and turn around to leave.

Standing in front of the door is a GIMP who asks "Sir, do you have a permit (sic)?" I answer "yes" and keep walking.

"I need to see it." I stop.

I set the coffees down and fetch my wallet from my thigh pocket and hand him my pink card. Now he is angry. His face changes to one of near rage. I have a license and He obviously isn't used to this. He now demands my Operator's License, which I leave in the wallet open to and set it down in front of him.

I ask him why he is stopping me. He yells back "because you are carrying a gun!" His hands are now shaking.

Though clenched teeth he asks for my address in Lafayette, which I give. He asks where it is and I, thinking he may be familiar with Lafayette, tell him. "I don't care, you are trying to impress me!" You can see the steam coming out of his ears (I check out and now he must make a production out of it as he is trying to provoke me into yelling or arguing with him).

He calls me in to see if I am Signal 40 (wanted on warrants). It comes back negative. Now, he is stymied and I start the "Am I free to go bird" chatter.

Nope, he needs to check my pistol. At this point the pucker factor goes off the charts. The idea of cops handling guns around me terrifies me as they possess very low gun handling skills (as I general rule).

He reaches over and pulls my 1911. He looks at it like one of those apes from 2001. He moves the pistol left and right, pointing it at my leg.

"Officer, please don't point the gun at me."

"Hey, I don't know if you have a lot of experience with these matters, but I am pointing the gun down."

I say nothing and watch him try to cycle the slide (the manual safety is still on). He tries three times and then asks me how to unlock the slide. I tell him and the same time he discovers the thumb safety.

He unloads my pistol and then examines the ammunition.

"It's Black Hills +P with 230 grain Speer bullet."

"Look, you are trying to impress me and I not impressed with you."

I shut back up and he calls my pistol in to see if it is stolen (yeah, most criminals carry expensive 1911s in custom holsters openly). He describes it as a "Bear Custom".

At this point his back up arrives, a tall, doughy young guy and a short blonde female who stays in her vehicle on 54th. The young male officer stands in front of me with his hands on his belt, the female smiles at me. The pistols comes back negative.

He asks me if I walked here. I point to my SUV and say "that's my vehicle." He nows has my pistol and magazine and is REALLY, REALLY angry, visibly shaking with anger. Before I can start the "Am I free to go" chatter, he advising that he will place the pistol in my SUV.

Against my better judgment (this guy was angry, have I mentioned this?), I ask if he can load it and then put it back in my holster. "NO!" and I get hit with GIMP spittle.

"Can I load it in my SUV?"

"NO! I don't care where you load it, just don't do it here!" If there was any quasi-reason to bounce my face off the pavement and Dutch pile me with the other cop, he would have done it right there.

We walk to my SUV (I refrain from skipping). I open the back hatch and he stops with his mouth open when he sees the back of my SUV (rifle cases, ammo boxes and my big gray Waller range bag full of pistols).

"Ummm, er, you are loaded for bear."

"No, just going shooting."

He walks back to the coffee shop and I overhead him tell the other two GIMPs (the female is now out of the car), "he must think he is some kind of cowboy."

I wave good-bye and tell them "see you tomorrow. Have a nice day." I drive off around the corner and reload my weapon.

Irony Warning: My friend and I drive to Speedway (Charlie Brown's) for breakfast where I have to open carry. Speedway Town Code:

"9.08.020 Concealed unlawful.
It is unlawful for any individual to carry a concealed firearm within the town limits. (Ord. 358 § 2, 1966)."

In the parking lot of Charlie Brown's were four (4) GIMP cars and two (2) Speedway cops. As we exit the restaurant we walk right by a very large GIMP talking to Paramedics. He says nothing. We then go to the range where the range rules (set by GIMPs) forbid concealed carry.

Of course, if the GIMP in question believes that he can intimidate me into not carrying, he is mistaken. Conversely, he has inspired me to greater activism for my civil rights.

I harbor no hostility toward the GIMP in question. I know that cops are like everyone else--good days and bad days. Maybe he was just having a bad day, maybe his wife left him last week. Could have been anything. His John Wayne attitude and anger were unacceptable, but there is little I can do about this other than complain.

We need to work together to ensure that this sort of treatment is a thing of the past for Indiana Gun Owners and that our civil rights are respected. I shall redouble my efforts.

************************

GIMP=Greater Indianapolis Metro Police

pink card=Indiana License to Carry Handgun (it is the color of Pepto Bismol and the size of your driver's license sans photo)
__________________
"Arguments of policy must give way to a constitutional command." Payton v. New York, 445 U.S. 573, 602 (1980).

Last edited by KSFreeman; March 5, 2009 at 12:09 PM.
KSFreeman is offline  
Old March 5, 2009, 01:38 PM   #10
Nekron
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 26, 1999
Location: Kansas
Posts: 139
Wow, KSF! Sounds like the GIMP officer just couldn't stand the idea of loosing face to a citizen who knew the law better than he did.

Great job keeping your cool.
Nekron is offline  
Old March 5, 2009, 08:19 PM   #11
USASA
Member
 
Join Date: June 27, 2008
Location: Washington State
Posts: 84
Quote:

"People can march down the street in full Nazi dress and have it legally protected, and that certainly upsets lots of people. However, they are allowed to do so. If they can march through the streets and upset plenty of people in the process and have it legally protected, I see no reason why there should be a double standard for open carry."

Good point!
USASA is offline  
Old March 5, 2009, 08:26 PM   #12
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,789
Quote:
People can march down the street in full Nazi dress and have it legally protected, and that certainly upsets lots of people. However, they are allowed to do so. If they can march through the streets and upset plenty of people in the process and have it legally protected, I see no reason why there should be a double standard for open carry.

AHH! See, it's not whether or not people are offended... it's WHO is offended.

A crucifix in a puddle of urine is "art":barf:

Cartoons insulting Christians are "free speech".

Nazi uniforms are "free speech".

Cartoons insulting Islam are "barbaric" and "insensitive".

Guns are horrible, evil, destructive, global warming causing, child killing, bastardly dwellers of the depths of hell. Their display is to be quashed at all costs.:barf:
__________________
Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza.
---
The problem, as you so eloquently put it, is choice.
-The Architect
-----
He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose.
-Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old March 6, 2009, 09:41 AM   #13
hogdogs
Staff In Memoriam
 
Join Date: October 31, 2007
Location: Western Florida panhandle
Posts: 11,071
I see nuttin' unusual about being cuffed and stuffed, albeit wrong as heck...
When a man can be arrested for whistling the theme of the "Adams' Family" cuz it ticks off the neighbors....
Brent
hogdogs is offline  
Old March 6, 2009, 12:55 PM   #14
9mmHP
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 14, 2007
Location: Indiana/Indpls Metro Area
Posts: 318
Quote:
I walked into the shop and walked right by a GIMP without any consideration that I was in Indy. I saw a uniform and did not think I would be hassled as no one bats an eye up here and all the other times I have open carried in Indy, no cops, deputies, or state troopers have said "boo!" to me. This time was different.
Kirk told this story on an Indiana specific gun forum. Some of the local PoPo on there were offended by the "GIMP" moniker. I, however, find it delicious.
9mmHP is offline  
Old March 6, 2009, 01:13 PM   #15
azredhawk44
Junior member
 
Join Date: September 28, 2005
Location: Mesa, AZ
Posts: 6,465
Quote:
When a man can be arrested for whistling the theme of the "Adams' Family" cuz it ticks off the neighbors....
Yeah, but how do you whistle the *snap snap* part? I'd want you in jail, too, if you could do that.

I'm so glad that most AZ police aren't as devolved as the GIMPs and other urbanized efite LEOs back east. Does make me want to open carry more when I read stuff like this, though.
azredhawk44 is offline  
Old March 6, 2009, 01:22 PM   #16
Wildalaska
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2002
Location: In my own little weird world in Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 14,174
if the cop used the term "sheeple" he should be disciplined. The use of that word is disrespectful and immature

So what did you achieve with this incident other that a chance to show off on a Message board.....bet the crime rate in Coon Rapids is enormous

The foregoing is rhetorical

WildyouguysknowhowifeelaboutopencarryAlaska ™

Last edited by Wildalaska; March 6, 2009 at 02:26 PM.
Wildalaska is offline  
Old March 6, 2009, 01:32 PM   #17
KSFreeman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 9, 2001
Location: Lafayette, Indiana--American-occupied America
Posts: 5,416
I know in Coon City it is an OV to spell enormous with two "u"s. You, watch it there.

Quote:
Kirk told this story on an Indiana specific gun forum. Some of the local PoPo on there were offended by the "GIMP" moniker. I, however, find it delicious.
Yes, but it was GIMP Central Command that gave them the moniker "GIMP" and then quickly changed. Some of us do not forget.
__________________
"Arguments of policy must give way to a constitutional command." Payton v. New York, 445 U.S. 573, 602 (1980).
KSFreeman is offline  
Old March 6, 2009, 05:27 PM   #18
USAFNoDak
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 21, 2000
Location: Minnesota, Twin Cities
Posts: 1,043
Geez, wasn't it in Coon Rapids where an off duty police officer was engaged in a road rage incident where someone got shot? I thought I remember hearing something about that, but it's been a few summers. My memory ain't what it used to be.

Also, someone above posted this:

His John Wayne attitude and anger were unacceptable, but there is little I can do about this other than complain.


I think I would complain, but to more folks than just this or a few other message boards. Complain to the local police chief, sheriff and the mayor, in writing. Be very friendly and don't embellish the facts, not even one little bit. Tell them that while you understand the difficulty they have in doing their duty, you don't appreciate being treated like a thug criminal when you were complying with the laws and not doing anything illegal. Tell them you appreciate it that they are trying to protect the citizens, but that they must pay more attention to the law and not come down hard on people who are obeying the law.
__________________
"If you love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." Samuel Adams.
USAFNoDak is offline  
Old March 6, 2009, 05:34 PM   #19
USAFNoDak
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 21, 2000
Location: Minnesota, Twin Cities
Posts: 1,043
People can march down the street in full Nazi dress and have it legally protected, and that certainly upsets lots of people. However, they are allowed to do so. If they can march through the streets and upset plenty of people in the process and have it legally protected, I see no reason why there should be a double standard for open carry.

And what about gang bangers hanging out on street corners with gang outfits on. That upsets a lot of people as well. Should the cops come and arrest them for disturbing the peace? Can you see Al Sharpton dealing with that scenario? Whooooaaaa! That would be the end of that police officers carreer and the department/city would be forking over a ton of cash from the resulting lawsuit. But gunowners are considered to be below violent gang members in many politicians' opinions, and maybe even in some LEO's opinions. Thus, the Second Amendment is null and void and you have no other rights which are to be protected either, in their opinion. Their take on it is; if you don't want to be hassled by us, leave your guns at home, or at least make sure we and the "scared puppy" public can't see them. It's too scary to see someone carry a gun in public if said person doesn't work for the government at some level.
__________________
"If you love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." Samuel Adams.
USAFNoDak is offline  
Old March 6, 2009, 06:13 PM   #20
model67a
Member
 
Join Date: February 19, 2009
Posts: 38
You said that Speedway has town ordinance that says you have to "open carry". I am from Indiana also and believe that they cannot do this by law. It looks like that oridnance was passed in 1966. I am pasting the Indiana law taken from NRA/ILA. If you will look under miscellaneous it will explain my reasoning for this opinion. Boy if each little town can have it's own little ordinances, think what a nightmare that would be!!! stay safe and keep our state lawmakers on their toes.

http://www.nraila.org/statelawpdfs/INSL.pdf
model67a is offline  
Old March 6, 2009, 06:58 PM   #21
Tamara
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: March 11, 2000
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 15,960
Quote:
Originally Posted by model67a
I am from Indiana also and believe that they cannot do this by law.
I believe Speedway's ordinance is grandfathered in. Ask KSFreeman, he's the Indiana go-to legal guy.
__________________
MOLON LABE!
2% Unobtainium, 98% Hypetanium.
The Arms Room: An Online Museum.
Tamara is offline  
Old March 6, 2009, 07:37 PM   #22
model67a
Member
 
Join Date: February 19, 2009
Posts: 38
tamara

Did they get that settled where they went in to the wrong house , confiscated the owners guns , destroyed them and were still trying to get his prints. Indy needs to be reigned in on what their Leo's can do. Have to start on the state legislature. It said in the state law that with a few exceptions , local government couldn't regulate so maybe Speedway is one of the exceptions that needs to be changed. I don't know how you could be aware of every little town's ordinances. stay safe
model67a is offline  
Old March 6, 2009, 07:51 PM   #23
model67a
Member
 
Join Date: February 19, 2009
Posts: 38
jasper

I'm from Jasper. I guess we must be more laid back about these things. Seems like that is the way with most states, guns are accepted in rural areas and not so much in metro. I guess that is understandable. Us old farm boys have been around guns since we were in diapers. lol Southern Illinois is having a pretty good hassle with Chicago and Northern Illinois. They have the Sherriff's behind them now so maybe they will get something done this year. If I am traveling I do everything I can to avoid Illinois. stay safe
model67a is offline  
Old March 9, 2009, 12:39 PM   #24
KSFreeman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 9, 2001
Location: Lafayette, Indiana--American-occupied America
Posts: 5,416
Quote:
Did they get that settled where they went in to the wrong house , confiscated the owners guns , destroyed them and were still trying to get his prints.
Unfamiliar with this matter. Do you have a citation?

Until I had my little run in with IMPD, I would not think there would be a reason to reign in Indy, but now I see your point. Gun owners need to organize and resist Indianapolis' attempt to initimidate us.

Indiana's preemption statute was written so that the ordinances in cities with high concentrations of African-Americans would still be valid (e.g. Gary).

Ironically the Speedway ordinance was written to combat the culture of White Southerners who fled the South after WWII to obtain employment in the productive, industrial North. Unfortunately they brought their culture of disorderly, immoral behavior with them and banning "concealed weapons" was a response to this influx. See the opening chapter of Thomas Sowell's Black Rednecks and White Liberals for further explanation.
__________________
"Arguments of policy must give way to a constitutional command." Payton v. New York, 445 U.S. 573, 602 (1980).
KSFreeman is offline  
Old March 10, 2009, 05:06 AM   #25
model67a
Member
 
Join Date: February 19, 2009
Posts: 38
ks

I will find some of the history of the incident I spoke of in a previous post and post it on this thread. This incident has received quite a bit of publicity. The attorney for the individual wronged in this situation was interviewed recently on the Cam Edwards show on the NRA website. I know a lot of the other forums I am a member of were giving it a lot of space. In the meantime you could check the archives of the Indianapolis Star. Have you checked about the Speedway situation to see if it is still active? Like I said if every little community has it's pet ordinance on this subject it would be a nightmare. stay safe

Last edited by model67a; March 10, 2009 at 05:13 AM.
model67a is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:18 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.14008 seconds with 7 queries