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Old March 8, 2009, 01:33 PM   #26
chemgirlie
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Some of you college folks, refresh my memory, please. In the event of an actual crime, wouldn't campus police just hold the suspect for the local police to arrest and charge? Or do they have the authority to do that on their own?

In a situation such as this one, if the university police don't press any charges, I would imagine the local police wouldn't have much interest in it?
I can't speak for other universities, but here's a quote from the UW police's website:
Quote:
Our police officers are authorized to enforce all State laws and Rules of the Board of Regents. They are also deputized by the Dane County Sheriff.
However, for the most part the UW police just do traffic violations, underage drinking violations, stolen bikes, and other petty stuff. When something really big happens the regular police are usually called in. Comparatively speaking the UW police are pretty small when you take into account the size of the regular police department.

Also, CCW permits are not issued to retired LEOs by the the UW police department even though they can legally do so (and several other departments throughout the state.) Some do it quietly, but there are plenty that won't do it at all.
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Old March 8, 2009, 02:37 PM   #27
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Its hard to generalize.

I have to agree in principle with Double Naught, though he is wrong to generalize about biology. Molecular biologists, microbiologists, et cetera tend to be more conservative but departments with more funding for the ecology geeks lean more to the left. There is a major rift within the ranks of sociologists, depending on their area of expertise within the field. (It is really hard for me to generalize about sociologists as it seems some of the most personally conservative ones I know also hold some of the wackiest political ideas. I'm not sure why?)

And so it is with psychologists. Glenn, I cheated and looked up your minivita before replying. I recognize your background to be that of hard core neuroscience. I'm afraid your experiences aren't universal. You don't speak the sort of psychobabble that one sees in 'interdisciplinary educational experience' programs, 'psychoeducation' programs and teacher certification mills. (Maybe a little confirmation bias here?)

I think its a process of evolution. You're naturally going to hire and retain more conservative people to teach in real research oriented programs like yours than you will in schools where the 'psychologists' are all EdD trained or borrowed from the social work department. Same with psychiatrists. You see pure communists through the usual American political spectrum and on to white supremacists and neonazis, dependent on their backgrounds.
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Old March 8, 2009, 05:35 PM   #28
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Chemgirlie--
Great job. I am going to cut and copy to a word doc, and may use this in the future, if you have no objections.

Glenn--
I appreciate the fact that you are on the right side, but you are taking this way too personally. In point of fact, you are in the minority. I don't believe there is any disputing this.

Academia, at every level from kindergarten to graduate school, is deeply entrenched with antis. The same is true of medicine. Of course, there are exceptions in both fields, and there are degrees of dominance, but that does not alter the truth of the statement.

Keep up the good work, but please keep your eyes and your mind open.
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Old March 8, 2009, 05:39 PM   #29
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I am going to cut and copy to a word doc, and may use this in the future, if you have no objections.
Sure thing, it's on the internet for the world to see and use as they see fit. It might need a bit of cleaning up as it is the rough draft though.
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Old March 8, 2009, 07:30 PM   #30
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Our university department (and many others in TX) have officers who are TX peace officers with full LEO capacities for arrest.

Yep - I'm a scientist type for a psychologist. My minivita is old - I got bored with web sites. Should fix it up. However - I do have clinician colleagues who want to shoot with me and some social psychologist types who are shooters. But they tend to be vigorous. I grant you that many soft types exist.

Are folks like me typical - no - but that's why we have to speak up. I went to the American Psychological Association conference in Boston and attended a Virginia Tech session. After the presentations about the aftermath - legit stress stuff - some dude piped up on whether the carry on campus movement would traumatize more folks and it would be useless anyway. So, I had to correct him. The panel agreed with me.

I just get annoyed, as I said before, when folks overgeneralize. Like RevNate - there are preachers that oppose church carry but it doesn't mean it is the end of the world.

I do have fun with being called 'refined'.
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Old March 8, 2009, 08:54 PM   #31
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In my college department (a biological science) we have 10 faculty. Four of us own guns. One of those 4 has a CCW, one of those 4 is an avid squirrel hunter (don't ask me why) and one of us belongs to a range. These are 3 different individuals. The 4th guy owns one .22. One of the other 6 who does not have a gun would like to have a gun but can't get it past his wife. Another one of the 6 was in Vietnam and saw some awful things done by M16 and is therefore not terribly interested in guns. Of the last 4, one is a bow hunter, 2 have no interest in guns and the last one is an enigma. He might have a gun but the rest of us ignore him because he's a traitorous backstabber and we don't really care what he does.

Of those 10 faculty, 8 are diehard liberals. Two are diehard conservatives (the enigma and the CCW).

Go figure.
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Old March 10, 2009, 03:29 PM   #32
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I guess I'm refined.

Have to share this. Today - I was requested to work in the garden. Thus, I said I will go off to store and buy various potions and powders to distribute over the landscape.

I decided to go to the Thai restaurant across the street for some lunch. As I was munching my basil catfish, I hear a voice - say - Hello, Professor Meyer.

There is a student from days past. He is now a lawyer, he tells me. He introduces me to his wife and tells her that I'm the only professor he knows that enjoys fine wine, exotic cheese and guns - like him.

So, I guess I am the refined gun owning professor - haha!

I invite him to the range.
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Old March 10, 2009, 04:28 PM   #33
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This is where America is going with liberals teaching schools today
at least they're teaching. Plenty of republicans have been known to cut education spending.
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Old March 10, 2009, 04:46 PM   #34
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It's an interesting mixed bag with my wife's collegues. She's a PhD clinical psychologist working within the VA system. I've seen some that go in all directions, some really interesting and eye opening examples. I can say for certain that most don't have the information that we have, and absent a good bit of background information it's easy for even the smartest people to fall for almost anything.
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Old March 10, 2009, 07:25 PM   #35
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The instructor, lecturer or "professor" should be drop kicked out the university gates, and forever barred from any sort of teaching position, as she obviously lacks or seemingly lacks minimal underdstanding of basic concepts.

Of course, I could be off base here, however that is the way it appears to me.
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Old March 11, 2009, 10:50 AM   #36
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And what is the legal agency that bars folks from seeking employment forever based on some silly action?

Since this is a civil rights forum - is such a suggestion congruent with civil rights?

For example, Alberto Gonzales is not able to find employment based on his performance as A.G. for the Bush administration. However, should some governmental agency bar him from ever being employed or should the free market of employers be able to decide whether to hire him?

Whether the university should sanction her action is a reasonable topic for debate. However, banned forever - I know we get excited about things - but that's silly and antithetical to our system.
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Old March 11, 2009, 12:31 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer
And what is the legal agency that bars folks from seeking employment forever based on some silly action?

Since this is a civil rights forum - is such a suggestion congruent with civil rights?

For example, Alberto Gonzales is not able to find employment based on his performance as A.G. for the Bush administration. However, should some governmental agency bar him from ever being employed or should the free market of employers be able to decide whether to hire him?
Excellent point, Glenn.

However, lawyers are a bit of a special case: for Mr. Gonzales and his cohorts, such as John Yoo), the answer to the question, "Could some agency bar him from ever being employed?" is -- yes. Mr. Yoo, and others, have been under investigation by the Justice Department ethics office for some time (IIRC their report is done, but the DOJ is sitting on it), and one possible outcome of this investigation involves referrals to state bar associations, which do have the power to apply sanctions for ethics violations, up to and including disbarment, which won't keep them from working at McDonald's, but as lawyers, they'd be toast. And it has been suggested that in Mr. Yoo's case, this would probably also lead to his losing his tenured faculty job, as well.

As far as I know, there's no equivalent oversight agency for academics.. at least there wasn't when I was one... just as well, probably.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy
More than likely, the prof reported to the police about a potentially troubled student, accurate or not, but that may actually have been the prof's view of the situation.
Agreed. And given the Virginia Tech case, and other school/college shootings in which no one noticed that the perpetrators may have been behaving strangely before the fact, perhaps a professor's erring on the side of caution shouldn't provoke too much outrage on our part.
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Old March 11, 2009, 12:42 PM   #38
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If Alberto violated the law and professional canons of ethics - you are right. He can get disbarred. It's hard put to claim that this professor's actions are in the same class, although seemingly stupid for the actions reported.

Given the current climate and the history of schools ignoring clear warnings, we probably will get some over-reactions as we had under-reactions. It's simply a shift in the criterion level as in signal detection theory (get the "." - inside moderator joke).

Take the prof to the range and try to make sense of the issue to this person. I find rationale argument works in quite a few cases.
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Old March 11, 2009, 01:28 PM   #39
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It's hard put to claim that this professor's actions are in the same class
Agreed... especially as compared to, oh, subverting the Constitution and suchlike...

And I like your point about signal detection. Yes, some false positives may not be the worst thing, if they prevent any recurrences at all.

And your proposed solution might even be fun.
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Old March 11, 2009, 01:49 PM   #40
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I think people are taking the wrong approach to this.

What if a student talked about smoking and how everyone should have the right to choose even if it was bad for you and the teacher called the EMS and reported someone in her class was dying of lung cancer or congestive heart failure due to tobacco.

We would all just laugh about it. What an idiot. Maybe the University need to look into how balanced this woman is.
Maybe she was trying to make an example of the student and push her agenda. I doubt this woman really thought this was the correct course of action to take.
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Old March 11, 2009, 04:18 PM   #41
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Here is the ladies info if you want to email her.
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Old March 11, 2009, 10:43 PM   #42
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Glenn:

My comment about the lady being "barred forever" from any teaching position might have been somewhat extreme, however were I a parent, I'm not, and any college or university a child of mine might be attending hired people such as this lady in an instructional capacity, freedom of speech not withstanding, she seemingly has some odd views thereon, I would seriously consider moving my kid to another school, and or having a word with officials where he/she was a student.
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Old March 12, 2009, 09:42 AM   #43
wingman
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however were I a parent, I'm not, and any college or university a child of mine might be attending hired people such as this lady
In truth by the time they hit college the indoctrination by public schools
have done it's work,I have family both in high school teaching and college,
as I said before many good teachers but the system is bias in text books
and management. My advice to parents if you can send your kids to private
school and/or home school, college is another matter it is difficult for in my
opinion the liberal left bug has infested our military academies to some degree.
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Old March 12, 2009, 02:21 PM   #44
Glenn E. Meyer
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I understand, Alan. No problem. Certainly, as a consumer - one can register protests about the quality of a product. Also, about the actions of someone. I would certainly demand such in this case.

I was just commenting on banning forever - I'm sure that the professor in question has been talked to about common sense.

On the other hand, I've seen schools blow off the fears about seriously disturbed kids because they are scared of lawsuits from Mom and Dad. VT certainly screwed up dealing with Cho.

It's a difficult call and we are going to get messes at both ends of the predictive spectrum.
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Old March 12, 2009, 06:37 PM   #45
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Glen, I placed this thread because I thought that others would be interested is reading the article.
I am not an educated man like your self and drink beer instead of wine so I guess that make me un-refined.
And I don’t even know what “more nuanced look at” means.

“No, not you, theotherTexasRich. I was just commenting on the throw-away earlier lines that overgeneralized about academics. Sorry, if I came across as cranky. I sometimes get discouraged by some gun forum rhetoric. Something negative happens and it is the end of the world. On about 4 different places, I frequent somebody says - See, there's no hope for colleges!!”

I guess that last comment was directed at me for my end of the world and bury my guns attitude that you seem to think that I have.
I would like to apologize for being the cause of making you come off as cranky due to my comments that were directed against liberal educators and not educators in general, maybe I was a little to end of the world.
Since you are staff and in control of this forum and you consider my input as forum rhetoric, and drive by, I will refrain from commenting further from this time onward.
Again, my apologies to every one, from an uneducated, unrefined, end of the world, bury your guns pro-gun person.
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Old March 12, 2009, 07:21 PM   #46
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Let's put this back on track and into perspective

The issue here is not a 2A issue, as I see it. It is a First Amendment issue. The student did not come into class with a gun, just with an idea. The professor, from a position of authority, used her position to intimidate the student for advocating campus carry. The professor said that she was just exercising caution in bringing this to the attention of the campus police.

Hockey Puck!

Does anyone really believe that, had the student advocated legalization of marijuana, the professor would have called ATF in the name of caution? What if the student advocated gun control? Would the good professor have alerted the campus police because guns were mentioned?

This is a clear case of (a) liberal harassment of an idea they disagree with, and (b) liberal hypocrisy about freedom of speech on campus. This is how Columbia University can justify putting jew-hating, Holocaust-denying Iranian President Mahmud Ahmadinijad on the dais in the name of free speech, but forbidding ROTC or military recruiters the same courtesy.

Wake up and smell the book mold!
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Old March 12, 2009, 10:13 PM   #47
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Some things just is

gretske -
You are the man! Great summary!
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Old March 12, 2009, 10:33 PM   #48
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Some things just is II

Ozzieman -
Isn't "gun forum rhetoric" what we do here? Or am I mistaken that this is a GUN FORUM? I'd really like to see you forgive Glenn - you have to realize that dispite being a most excellent genius gun rights advocate, he is also a liberal. So don't let the turkeys get you down (just a figure of speach) and please sleep on it and rethink "will refrain from commenting further from this time onward" We want you around.
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Old March 13, 2009, 01:32 AM   #49
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Does anyone really believe that, had the student advocated legalization of marijuana, the professor would have called ATF in the name of caution?
You can't shoot and kill 33 people with a joint. Is there a reason anyone should feel their lives could be in immediate danger from marijuana?

Quote:
What if the student advocated gun control? Would the good professor have alerted the campus police because guns were mentioned?
No, because the student's position would coincide with the misinformation the professor has absorbed through osmosis over her lifetime.

Quote:
This is a clear case of (a) liberal harassment of an idea they disagree with, and (b) liberal hypocrisy about freedom of speech on campus.
I disagree. People are scared. Scared people overreact. To eliminate the overreaction, one must remove the fears and insecurities.

As I said earlier, spreading real, factual information is the key. Right now there are no readily available (to non-gun aficionados) sources of positive information regarding firearms.

Quote:
This is how Columbia University can justify putting jew-hating, Holocaust-denying Iranian President Mahmud Ahmadinijad on the dais in the name of free speech, but forbidding ROTC or military recruiters the same courtesy.
IMO, this is a faulty comparison fallacy.
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Old March 13, 2009, 09:57 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by theotherTexasRich
I disagree. People are scared. Scared people overreact. To eliminate the overreaction, one must remove the fears and insecurities.
Great point that Glenn alluded to earlier. VA Tech got a lot of heat (rightfully so IMO) over the fact that Cho showed warning signs and they wer not taken seriously.

The problem as always with pendulums is that they swing too far. In this case it did. I am sure that the paper/speech given by this student in no way resembled some of Cho's rantings at VA Tech but that could be remedied by educating some school personnel about warning signs to take seriously.

Since I am not a psychologist I couldn neither tell you what those warning signs would be nor could I thread the needle between the warning signs and civil liberties either. Let's see what others say.
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