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Old March 22, 2009, 06:29 PM   #76
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I only have one comment...and, it concerns the 380. Most 380's are only good at extremely close range. In other words, it would be the exceptional shooter that can hit a target with any consistent accuracy at more than ten feet.
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Old March 22, 2009, 06:43 PM   #77
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Talking about the little 380s? The Beretta Cheetahs or Sigs 230/2s aren't hard to hit with beyond 10 feet.

Also, the unchambered argument is best searched for the 1000s of posts that say the same thing.

What's the CCW paradigm as relevant to this thread - OK, I'll try:

1. The gun is best used to avoid grievous bodily harm to yourself and others you feel responsible. The latter is not the general public - nor is it an instrument to prevent property crime is that entails significant risk of grievous bodily harm if you start the fight. Try to avoid bad situations. Intervention to prevent harm to deserving innocents is considered. However, that is situational. I would have intervened to stop a pedophile from beating a kid with a crowbar and stuff her in a duffle bag. I would have not intervened when two gang members starting huffing and then beating the crap out of each other in the mall. BTW - both are things that I had reasonable temporal proximity to.

2. The gun is used to avoid grievous bodily harm but also as an instrument of altruism as you want to protect society as part of viewpoints referred to as "sheepdog mentality", 'guardian viewpoint" or 'protector of civil culture'. Your motivation vary from reciprocal altruism or defending the common good, to want adulation as a hero or a desire to punish (with force) various miscreants. That significant harm that could be avoided is a possibility is not really relevant to starting the action.

You can mush the two together to some degree.
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Old March 22, 2009, 06:56 PM   #78
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That is as cryptic a statement as can be found anywhere on TFL. What does that mean? What exactly is the CCW paradigm?
Nothing cryptic to it. In fact, it is rather straightforward. The CCW paradigm is just that, the theoretical and philosophical framework of CCW, everything that goes into the lifestyle and activities where the concealed weapon is carried and used. Glenn points out two parts of that paradigm specifically as it relates to when to use the firearm. Others consider further parts, such as their environment and safety issues, or convenience, and so on. As opposed to the very narrow "gotta have a quick draw for a shootout" set of circumstances.
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And why do you suppose this was?
Who cares why it was? The issue is that it was, and that when it was we can look at that time to see if these problems were real or hypothetical.

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Old March 22, 2009, 09:53 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer
What's the CCW paradigm as relevant to this thread - OK, I'll try
CCW Paradigm? Holy smoke!

How about I carry a firearm to protect myself from harm from others?

All this other stuff seems kind of unnecessary particularly that sheepdog stuff which sounds like something off one of those '50s Westerns I used to watch. Man, let's not overthink this stuff

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Originally Posted by David Armstrong
Who cares why it was? The issue is that it was,
Well as stated before no evidence to show that it ever was. Sure wasn't in the military.
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Old March 22, 2009, 10:07 PM   #80
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I also don't carry one in the chamber for safety reasons. But, I also feel like I would be a coward if I didn't do something.

Now, what should I do differently to be a better CCW holder? What would you do in a similar situation?
I'd start by carring a loaded gun. There's nothing safe about a gun fight.
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Old March 23, 2009, 09:23 AM   #81
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First off your not an LEO, your a CCW holder that doesn't give you the right to intervene unless your life or another's is threatened! end of story on that!!Secondly a .380 not chambered in an ankle holster against a pistol already drawn locked and loaded is a joke come on,even if he had his back to you and was turning around you'd have to be lighting fast and one hell of a shot,your already dealing with a underpowered round you better be able to be able to place a one shot kill,are you that good! I'm not sure the best of us are under those conditions,you could be the reason others get killed,you'd be better off retaining as much info as you could for the police to apprehend him instead of trying to be a hero!
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Old March 23, 2009, 09:39 AM   #82
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TG - the sheepdog metaphor is in the 'official literature' of the discussion of the responsibilities of the armed civilian from the gun world and some military psych types. The 'guardian' mentality comes from a similar discussion in the criminological literature. Civic Culture is from the European views on altruism in dangerous situations.

When folks throw out whether they would act in various ways and give reasons that have surface validity, I think it is better to understand what is below the blanket statements of how one says they would act.
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Old March 23, 2009, 03:01 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer
the sheepdog metaphor is in the 'official literature' of the discussion of the responsibilities of the armed civilian from the gun world
OMG are we an academic discipline now? Ok, I know that and have read it on here and the gun rags I read from time to time. What I have also read from the psych world concerns the superhero or superman complex that some of us have (nobody on TFL of course)
Quote:
an unhealthy sense of responsibility, or the belief that everyone else lacks the capacity to successfully perform any task. Such a person may feel a constant need to "save" others.
coupled with the feeling of power that comes with the carrying of a firearm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer
some military psych types
They are even more scary!

Glenn, isn't this "sheepdog" mentality what gets us into these arguments about what to do involving third person SD situations. I mean I have seen this stuff linked all the way to the belief in the "armed citizen militia" that I have debated with others before protecting us against the "evil" government. Does the "criminological literature" deal with the Walter Mitty stuff or am I getting off topic?

For the record I am an avowed atheist (Handgunner Magazine John Connor notwithstanding) concerning this sheepdog stuff and personally I see a lot of bad coming out of it at the extreme (not just being a good citizen and reporting criminal activity) with very little good coming out of it (innocent dead and law suits for me) even if successful. Heck, I just want to protect my own butt and that of my wife and son. Does that make me a sheepdog? Again if off topic do me in!
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Old March 23, 2009, 03:52 PM   #84
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The Walter Mitty stuff is in part a giant discussion on the motivations for pro-social or altruistic behavior across the social sciences.

If you want a techy book on it:

Dovidio, J. F., Piliavin, J. A., Schroeder, D. A., & Penner, L., (2006). The social psychology of prosocial behavior. Mahwah, NJ, : Lawrence Erlbaum Associates Publishers.

Also, views of aggression are useful. It is an interesting perspective to see altruism as an outcome of such processes as compared to some philosophical /theological view of the universe and humanity. The latter is sometimes immune to empirical evidence in debate.

Such an academic. Sigh.
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Old March 23, 2009, 05:50 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer
The Walter Mitty stuff is in part a giant discussion on the motivations for pro-social or altruistic behavior across the social sciences.
Glenn, I checked out the book or rather looked it up and found that it was 424 pages long! However, the extract talked more about altruistic behavior like volunteering and that sort of thing.

What I did find was a guy named Dave Grossman, who it appears coined the sheep, wolf, sheepdog framework. He is somewhat controversial and doesn't seem to have the approval of "academic" mainstream, but I could be wrong.

It seems that what we are talking about comes from him rather than the textbook you quoted, but I didn't read all 424 pages either. Is that true? Here is a link to a guy who really debates his findings: http://www.theppsc.org/Grossman/Main-R.htm

Again, within the realm of civilian personal SD I see some real drawbacks to the framework even though to someone who spent most of their adult work life in a cubicle or office pushing papers it could appear very attractive if only it were real.
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Old March 23, 2009, 06:40 PM   #86
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I just started carrying with one in the chamber lately , i figure its a lot easier for me to defend myself than practicing racking the slide,every second counts..
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Old March 23, 2009, 07:41 PM   #87
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Friend Bill,

Why are you carrying a gun in the first place? I'd say that's the first question that needs to be answered in order to begin working through these issues. I can't answer for you, of course, but I can answer for myself- perhaps that might help.

I carry in order to protect myself and my loved ones who might be with me. It's my gun that I carry, I bought it with my money, loaded it with ammunition I purchased, trained with it at venues I paid to attend, and practice with it on my own range with my own ammunition. I even paid for the permit which allows me to carry it legally. I'm an armed citizen, not a LEO.

And if I ever (God forbid) have to use my gun, I will be the one taking all the risks. It will be MY responsibility to make correct judgements about whether drawing or shooting are justified. It will be MY responsibility where EVERY ONE of my bullets goes and what it does. It will be MY attorney paid for with my money who goes to court with me, if court is necessary to defend my actions criminally. And if necessary, it will be MY money paying for an attorney to defend me against any civil actions which arise in the aftermath of my actions.

And I will be the one losing sleep over the whole situation, seeing it in my mind's eye over and over and over. Even if I did everything right, it will still be there. It will take years to go away. Traumatic events are like that for me, I know how I react to them. I have spent enough time in life collecting mental film clips, after all. The most recent one, for example, was from last year. I watched a teenage motorcycle rider describe three slow cartwheels in midair out of a cloud of tire smoke, after the car in front of me that I saw him run right out in front of, hit him at speed. I don't need any more stuff in my mental video library, if I can get by without it.

So no, I'm not going to be starting any firefights in a bank lobby or anywhere else. I might be forced to participate in one, possibly, but I am sure not going to start it. As long as no one is getting hurt or killed, I wouldn't even think about drawing on what appears to be a simple robber.

Stopping a potentially lethal assault, that's a different deal. IF it was absolutely clear what the circumstances were. And that's a big if. But a robbery? Nope. Not me.

So what would I do in a bank robbery? Get down, behind cover, and unobtrusively try to be a good witness. As long as it was just a robbery...

I'd suggest you take a long hard look at http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...2_StudyDay.htm - Skip has some good material there. And http://www.defense-training.com/quips/2003/19Mar03.html too- especially the part that says Winning a gunfight, or any other potentially injurious encounter, is financially and emotionally burdensome. The aftermath will become your full-time job for weeks or months afterward, and you will quickly grow weary of writing checks to lawyer(s). It is, of course, better than being dead or suffering a permanently disfiguring or disabling injury, but the "penalty" for successfully fighting for your life is still formidable.

This IS an academic discipline- if it's done right. IMHO we'd all be better off if more plain ordinary citizens who carried guns actually did study more, in order to learn the things they really need to know. It is a demanding discipline we have undertaken, and one not to be taken lightly. Mistakes are awfully expensive, in multiple ways.

Again, to quote Skip Gochenour:

YOU MAY BE WHATEVER YOU RESOLVE TO BE

YOU HAVE RESOLVED TO BE THE ULTIMATE MORAL ARBITER!

YOU HAVE TAKEN IT UPON YOURSELF TO BE ABLE TO LOOK AT A SET OF RAPIDLY EVOLVING FACTS AND CIRCUMSTANCES AND DECIDE THAT THEY MEAN SOMEONE SHOULD HAVE LETHAL FORCE USED ON THEM AND YOU NEED TO DO IT.

As a person who carries weapons about in society you have decided that you are a moral arbiter.

You are obliged to prepare yourself physically, mentally, emotionally and morally for the role as a moral arbiter.
You are obliged to train your body, mind and spirit for your role as moral arbiter.
Failure to accept and exercise these obligations is an exercise in immorality. It is a failure of discipline and self-control.

THE RULES ARE YOUR MASTER UNTIL YOU ARE A MASTER OF THE RULES.
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Take care,

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Old March 23, 2009, 10:03 PM   #88
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Quote:
I just started carrying with one in the chamber lately , i figure its a lot easier for me to defend myself than practicing racking the slide,every second counts..
And so does being able to operate your pistol with one hand if the other isn't available.
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Old March 23, 2009, 10:28 PM   #89
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The best thing in MHO

if no one is in serious imminent danger of being shot, as seems in your account, is to lay low and try to get a good look at the offender(without being obvious), to be a GOOD witness for the cops. Look for height and accurate description, hair colour, aprox age, limp or unusual walk, voice or accent, an exact description of clothing (oddities/brandnames) colours, smell (does he reek of BO, grog, is he acting rationally? calm? agitated?. If you can, switch on any recording devices.(my phone can record sound) dial 911 (you dont have to speak) so they can listen and your phone can be zero'd in on.

The last thing I would do is attempt to pull a gun on someone set on robbing a bank, unless you are so confident you can 100 per cent be sure you could nail him with one shot. Most banks/shops have cctv, so they (the robber) will probably get caught eventually, but an accurate eye witness account is invaluable to law enforcement. Your best to stay alive to be that witness.

I have never been in a bank when it is robbed, so I, myself would probably just lay there trembling and poop myself.... so if you dont listen to what I say....

I agree

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Old March 23, 2009, 10:59 PM   #90
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i carry a gun and a backup.i don't go in banks unless i really, really have to.

if i was in a bank and it got held up i wouldn't intrefere with the robber or robbers unless I thought i was going to die!
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Old March 23, 2009, 11:17 PM   #91
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Thinking about this. It would actually be a tough decison. In the event that a BG actually walked into a bank and shot the ceiling, everyone would scramble. It would among the confusion probably be easy to pull your gun on him before he could point back at you during this. Thinking hard that would be the path I think I would choose, though it would be a split second decision. You would have the opportunity to completley disarm the threat right then and there, and I don't think I would be able to sleep at night if I failed to act, and someone else got shot as a result when I knew I could probably have quickly resolved the issue
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Old March 23, 2009, 11:43 PM   #92
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cracked

I have never been a bank robber, but I would expect apon his dramatic entrance, the first thing he would be looking for is anyone reaching for anything that could be a gun (I would reccomend not even reaching to hit the restart button on your pacemaker) If he saw a gun come out, that would spell disaster for the person with it. You might be the one and only casualty, and the EXAMPLE he points out what will happen if someone else wants to "play". I would reccomend you do nothing, and be home that night to cuddle your loved ones, rather than the fool trying to be a hero to save a bank a few grand. Just MHO.... I'd still be there trembling..... so ignore me if you like

(Added later)
Also, If a person (you) was seen by another ccw, holding a gun, he might think YOU are the robber and do his civic duty to dispatch you? or the cops might take you out thinking you are a co-offender. MHO, unless you or the other victims are in imminent danger.... let the crook be the only one at the scene to bring a gun, hopefully then, only he will pay the price.

Hero's have their heart in the right place..... dead hero's might find their heart all over the wall behind them...

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Old March 24, 2009, 01:21 AM   #93
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You would have the opportunity to completley disarm the threat right then and there, and I don't think I would be able to sleep at night if I failed to act, and someone else got shot as a result when I knew I could probably have quickly resolved the issue
And again we see the problem with this sort of stuff. First, the assumption is that the GG will win without any trouble. What happens when you try to disarm the threat, and you miss, or lightly wound him? Or when his partner, who you hven't noticed before, pulls out his gun and now starts shooting? Can you sleep at night if you do act, knowing that your actions started a gunfight where someone else got shot? How does one reconcile "I could probably have quickly resolved the issue" with "I failed to resolve the issue and instead made it worse"?

Folks, there is a reason that EVERY professional security agency, LE agency, and everybody else involved in this sort of stuff recommends against intervention/resistance except as an absolute last resort.
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Old March 24, 2009, 05:31 AM   #94
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+1 David Armstrong

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Old March 24, 2009, 08:59 AM   #95
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TG, Grossman is controversial but and he is extensively cited in the aggression literature.

The sheepdog cliche comes from a lot of folks - I don't know the exact origin but it goes along with the 'sheeple' line. Some linguist can track it down.

If you want another really interesting but long read relevant to us - Collins book entitled Violence is a great one.

As Lee mentioned - Skip is an awesome scholar of the issue. Having done the NTI three times - the FOF aspect of ATSA village, team tactics, 360 shoot house, etc. are very useful lessons for the FOGish warrior.

BTW - the last time I did it - there were 3 psychologists and an anthropologist, mixed in with folks like the Marine officer in charge of firearms training.
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Old March 24, 2009, 11:50 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer
he is extensively cited in the aggression literature
Yes, I saw some of that but he is not always cited in a positive way. Lots of people (some with PhDs) get cited but it doesn't make them valid IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer
I don't know the exact origin but it goes along with the 'sheeple' line. Some linguist can track it down.
According to this: http://www.macmillandictionaries.com...06-sheeple.htm

On TFL I seem to see two basic philosophy espoused. The Warrior mentality vs. Stay Safe Mentality (my construction).

For me the Warrior or Guardian Mentality seems to be a dangerous thing for Joe Whitecollar for a lot of reasons. Actually, I agree with some of what David Armstrong and some others espouse (not the comply first stuff) in that if you want to be a guardian join the military or LE. Joe Whitecollar (or blue) who fancies him or herself as a "guardian" of society gives me pause and concern over unintended consequences of playing that role. The Stay Safe mentality which I see on Michael Bane's best defense is more useful to me. However, I am not sure I agree with Lee that it is an "academic" thing unless we equate training with academia. Most of this (Stay Safe vs Warrior)seems to be common sense but I won't debate that.
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Old March 24, 2009, 01:25 PM   #97
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Grossman is more of a summarizer and speaker.

For example, he gets criticized for his suggestion that violent video games prime aggression. There is a tremendous literature on that with complex models of aggression being multicausal. His view though comes across as simplistic.

There are more sophisticated views of the inhibition to fighting that Grossman talks about from the Marshall work.

But then, you have to go read the PhD writtern crappola - which I get paid to do!

Dave Kenik in Handguns had a good couple of articles on being a hero. He was an NTI participant when I was there. I think the resolution is using common sense in choosing an action as compared to what we view as nonthoughtful posturing.

The initiation of the gun fight question is one for thought rather than blanket pronouncements. The Internet tends to generate the latter - it's a group polarization effect, sometimes.
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Old March 24, 2009, 01:39 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer
His view though comes across as simplistic.
He really IMO seems to be mixing military/LE up with civilian life as we deal with responses to danger/combat etc. Even between military and LE there are great differences in how one deals with killing and then into the civilian world much more so different. Seems, Grossman is taking a one-size fits all approach which is why he gets the criticism for oversimplicity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer
the inhibition to fighting that Grossman talks about from the Marshall work.
Are you speaking of S.L.A. Marshall? You know he has been discredited?
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Old March 24, 2009, 02:40 PM   #99
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Yep - but there have been folks looking at the issue after Marshall. That's what I think I said.
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Old March 25, 2009, 09:31 PM   #100
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Well to be honest you should always carry with one in the chamber and in most cases it should be on the hip and not the ankle. The only time ankle carry is good is if you know you are going to be seated for a long period of time i.e. a truck driver. Even then its only secondary. Its just too much time to reach down there and get it especially if some guy is rushing you.
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