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Old March 5, 2009, 02:51 PM   #51
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
peetzakilla,
Maybe in the draconian state you live in....

Oh, I know... My original point was that in SOME places you'd be in trouble. Oddly, my state is not (so far as I can tell) one of them. Only "in or upon the building or grounds of any school, college or university in the state without the written permission of the institution."
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Old March 5, 2009, 05:01 PM   #52
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I said: I am going to remain calm and do as I am told.

Careby asked: Would that go as far as surrendering your weapon to him or allowing him to search you for it?

Answer: Did I say that? No, I said in a nutshell that I would do as I was told and try to keep a low profile. If I had no other choice then to draw my weapon then yes, I would defend myself.

I really don't see a couple thugs taking the time to search everyone for weapons. Their goal is to get in the bank and out as quick as possible and if it does not involve violence towards me or any other innocent then I'll let them do as they please and Johnny Law can do the rest.
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Old March 5, 2009, 11:42 PM   #53
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[PHP][/PHP]I'd have watched him rob the bank because I have no interest in risking my life to protect the bank's money and even less interest in spending several thousand dollars in legal fees in order to protect the bank's money.

Now if I thought there was an immediate threat of death or serious injury to myself or someone else, then I guess you fight with what you've got and not what you wish you had. Although even there, my general thought is that if you don't care enough about your own life to arm yourself and get trained, why should I care enough to help you?[PHP][/PHP]


Ditto

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Old March 20, 2009, 04:46 AM   #54
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Never put yourself in danger by trying to use your weapon, if you are in danger and feel that you can make the situation safer, by safely using your weapon....thats the right thing to do.
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Old March 20, 2009, 08:32 AM   #55
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Hotdog

Quote:
...as I go 2 COM on 'em! Likely I wouldn't have a gun and at that time I will go "octopus humping a coke bottle" on 'em or stick and git with a buck 110 folder.
I am fairly new to this. What on God's green Earth did you just say? I have no idea what it means, but I believe I am a little frightened that you carry a firearm....
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Old March 20, 2009, 09:46 AM   #56
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In that situation, it is entirly up to you; there is not right or wrong and no matter what, the only coward in that situation is the bank robber. It is impossible to say until you are in that situation, but I think I would comply until he leavled his weapon at myself or others, then I would engage threat.
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Old March 20, 2009, 09:51 AM   #57
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On the scenario, you've already gotten some great advice (except the whole "humping octopuses with Coke bottles" thing...why a bank robber would bring an octopus to a gunfight is beyond me... )

I can even go along with the ankle carry method. Sometimes, your required mode of dress doesn't allow for anything else...(though I may look hard at a Smartcarry-style holster...)

But I am concerned with chamber-empty carry on your LCP. Why? Do you not have confidence in its safety features to trust it with a round in the pipe? If not, why not get a different gun....like a PPK or Bersa (w/ a safety)? I had the same "feelings" about Glocks until I learned more about them...unfortunately, not until I'd traded off a G17 w/ XO Big-Dot night sights.... ...but now I know better and may consider buying another one (if the price is right)....but fearing your carry gun is NEVER a good thing....learn to love it....or trade it for something you can love....
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Old March 20, 2009, 10:41 AM   #58
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Quote:
I was at my bank (which was robbed recently by an armed gunman) the other day and started thinking about the following scenario:
Good! We should all think about these things once in a while, not to develop a rampant paranoia but because "after the whistle blows is a terrible time to come up with a game plan".

Quote:
What would I have done had I been in the bank the day it was robbed. I carry concealed a Ruger LCP with two extra mags. The bank robber came into the bank and fired a shot into the air. So, he was obviously locked and loaded. I ankle carry and am a little slow getting to my weapon. My thought was that had I tried to interrupt in this situation, there is a good chance I would have been shot. I also don't carry one in the chamber for safety reasons. But, I also feel like I would be a coward if I didn't do something.
I have a few thoughts/opinions.

1) I'm with the folks who say "If you don't have one in the chamber you are carrying a paperweight". If you don't trust your gun with one in the chamber then please get another gun.

2) If you are going to carry a lighter caliber for self defense then you MUST train with it on a regular basis because you will have even less "fault tolerance" when it comes to shot placement. You should also consider and practice some ways to draw from your ankle so that it is also a well rehearsed maneuver.

3) I think that a robber who has shown his weapon, and discharged it, constitutes a clear and present danger. "Means, Motive, and Opportunity" have all been met and it's no longer about property, it's about he lives and safety of everyone present. At the same time I think that if the weapon isn't pointed at you then you should pause long enough to review the entire situation because.....

4) (as we learned in training) You must allways, Allways, ALWAYS, assume that there are more criminals than the one you see. Far too many good guys get plugged by the "backup men" (or woman) because they focus too tightly on the high profile criminal in front of them.

5) On one hand we have the "driving forces", namely that we want to stop the threat, we don't want to feel cowardly, etc. On the other side we have the "quelling forces" which are the normal resistance to taking human life, the concern over personal injury, fear of lawsuit, and so forth. The dynamics of these two forces are situation specific and unfortunately the only person who can deal with them is the person on the spot at the time the event happens. Your best bet is to do just what you are doing, namely consider the options and the consequences and create a few general "game plans" in the (Maker Forbid!) event something does happen. That greatly reduces the chances that what you will do is simply freeze (though that is still and always a possibility).
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Old March 20, 2009, 11:24 AM   #59
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as an LEO in my area of illinois, we are taught that, say i am off duty, observe and be a great witness is preferred to our drawing our off duty weapon and engaging a target.

that said, with the robber walking in and putting one in the ceiling, he has indeed, at least by illinois law, already used deadly force and we are totally in our rights to engage and kill that person. but is it in our best decision to do so? where is everyone standing in relation to this fella? did they drop and cover or stand in between the perp and me, frozen solid? situational awareness is key, and hindsight is 20/20.

i think that the majority agrees that the observe and be a great witness is the best road. but it's not the only one, and since none of us was there, all the other roads are definitely an option, but we will never know which is the right road until we are in that situation.


all that said, like previously mentioned, the op needs to rethink his carry options. the issues have all pretty much been addressed, so i won't ramble on anymore.

and let's hope none of us has to ever pull our weapon in defense, but pray we can and will when the time might come.
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Old March 20, 2009, 11:54 AM   #60
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We had an off duty officer with his wife and child in a store when it was held up. The officer pulled down on the suspect outside and was holding him at bay when the BG accomplice walked up behind him and put one in his head. If your going to act watch your six.
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Old March 20, 2009, 12:05 PM   #61
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I would lay low, if possible get my gun in a postition where I could immiatley fire it. As for .380 not being enough gun, unless he was extremely intoxicated, or, as many bank robbers do, wearing body armor, I think 2 or 3 rounds of .380 would drop him. If he started shooting at people. I personally would shoot him until he stopped moving completley, no matter how many rounds it took. When the cops ask, just tell them you were trying to "deescalate the threat as quickly as possible to prevent anyone else from getting hurt"
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Old March 20, 2009, 01:55 PM   #62
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When is a deadly threat not quite a deadly threat?

There are many tangent issues to explore, but I'm focused only on the action most likely to have everyone present going home alive. (Well, not the BG but he's already made his choices...) Being in a bank while a BG holds up the teller is not the same thing as having a gun pointed directly at you or your family. In the latter, there is no question of an immediate deadly threat. I don't disagree that presenting a gun, shooting the ceiling, and holding up a teller is a deadly threat to the teller - but maybe not so much to you. Judgment should prevail, if thinking capacity hasn't been frozen on the spot. Drawing down on the BG may very well increase the likelihood of one or more people dying that day. Even you.

As you mull the scenario, remember you're not Ahnold or Bruce Willis and that your body will actually bleed if you get shot. Also that without a script, anything less than instantaneous kill (ie.,fatal headshot) on the BG may well get the teller and other employees or clients - including you - shot or killed by the BG. The teller will be cooperating - every bank in America trains their employees regularly to follow orders, give the money away, not even to push the alarm until safe to do so.

Since it's clear the CCW doesn't confer vigilante or LEO status, you're confined to acting to prevent a deadly threat (or various state-by-state slight variations of the theme), not to stop crimes or rescue the fair maiden. So what do you do? As presented, i submit this scenario calls for watch, wait, and be ready.

First, carry a gun that shoots straight and hits hard - the .380 may well do so. Hornady Critical Defense, or Federal Hydra-Shok are two examples of fine expanding, penetrating rounds, even in .380. I like a bigger gun, 4" or longer barrel and minimum 9mm, but that's a preference thing as long as you're proficient with yours. ALWAYS have a round chambered and choose a double action gun so you can just draw, unsafe and get off the first shot without racking a slide or cocking a hammer. An extra mag or two, or a few speedloaders is mandatory. Never want your gun to go hungry, especially if someone is shooting at you. Personally I prefer autos for SD, due to mag capacity, reload speed, and rapid fire in single action.

In the instance described, i think discreetly drawing and continuing to conceal your gun is most definitely a good idea, if you can. Comply, to the extent it doesn't compromise your ability to shoot if the threat shifts to you or becomes deadly. Like the LEO said, get details and be a good witness. If nobody is being shot, stay cool. You may still get to play hero.

If he shoots someone or starts blasting randomly, all bets are off. Time to shoot until the threat is eliminated. And watch your backside for his partner. Someone said bank robbers rarely have a partner - but they also rarely display a gun. Be ready for anything. Remember - Shoot. Move. Live.
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Old March 20, 2009, 04:24 PM   #63
ZeSpectre
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You make some good points but I'm going to contest one.
Quote:
In the instance described, i think discreetly drawing and continuing to conceal your gun is most definitely a good idea
No, no, for your own sake NO! Again this comes from LE training. There are certain motions that attract attention and "subtle" attempts to unholster and conceal your firearm are nearly always a motion/action that triggers subconscious alarms when someone is hyped and alert.

Don't take my word for it, seek out some of the research that has been done on the matter.

If you aren't ready to move then don't do anything.

If you decide to draw you'd best be ready mentally and physically to go full bore from that point forward because it's very likely that you'll trigger a response.
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Old March 20, 2009, 04:55 PM   #64
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I'd say it's better to get a look at his face to describe him to the police and not draw unless he starts showing real intent to shoot people.
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Old March 20, 2009, 05:33 PM   #65
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Even as an off duty LEO, I've asked myself this question and have come up with the following answer.

If I can access my weapon without being noticed, I'll do it but engaging the BG will be a last resort option. If the guy is bent on robbing the bank, I'll cooperate as far as possible, get a good description, prepare to follow him out (If I have to engage, I'd rather not do it in a bank full of civilians) and call in description to the PD ASAP as soon as he exits.

Now, if it appears that it is more then a simple robbery and the BG's are lining folks up and shooting them...well, at that point, it's game on as there is really nothing to lose and if I don't act, someone (maybe me) is definately going to get killed.

Most bank robbers (in my area at least) are non confrontational. They generally walk in, hand the teller a note, get the money and walk out. Some times, other customers are not even aware of the robbery.

In the case where the guy comes in and fires a round right off the bat, I still think I'd keep a low profile, try and access my weapon and have it ready in the event he ups the anty and starts wacking customers. I'd try and start making a mental plan in the event I have to engage him while getting a good description. Let him get the money and be a good witness. Everybody else will probably be freaked out and good descriptions will be hard to come by until the video is pulled. The more accurate information the cops get out to responding units in a timely manner, the better the chance will be that he gets caught.
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Old March 20, 2009, 11:33 PM   #66
David Armstrong
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Quote:
as an LEO in my area of illinois, we are taught that, say i am off duty, observe and be a great witness is preferred to our drawing our off duty weapon and engaging a target.
You aren't alone. As I have pointed out repeatedly, LE across the board recommends to not engage unless absollutely necessary, and that compliance should be the initial response.
Quote:
I'm with the folks who say "If you don't have one in the chamber you are carrying a paperweight". If you don't trust your gun with one in the chamber then please get another gun.
Of course you can't make that paperweight start firing bullets in a fraction of a second, so I'd suggest those that think chamber empty equals paperweight don't understand the process. Many people carry chamber empty for a variety of reasons. Not trusting your gun with one in the chamber is only one possible reason.
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Old March 21, 2009, 04:27 PM   #67
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Quote:
Of course you can't make that paperweight start firing bullets in a fraction of a second, so I'd suggest those that think chamber empty equals paperweight don't understand the process. Many people carry chamber empty for a variety of reasons. Not trusting your gun with one in the chamber is only one possible reason.
I'm certainly interested in hearing more on your train of thought.
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Old March 21, 2009, 07:29 PM   #68
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There have been many threads where the advantages and disadvantages of carrying chamber empty have been hashed out in pretty good detail. Try doing a search in this forum and you should have plenty to consider.
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Old March 21, 2009, 07:55 PM   #69
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By octopus humpin' a coke bottle I mean physically scrappin' for my life...
And I do not carry a firearm typically but have in the past. I don't dress for concealed carry. But armed with a firearm or not I just don't know how to comply with violent punks.

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Old March 21, 2009, 10:03 PM   #70
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David,
I was specifically interested in your take on things. Not to put you on the spot but it seems that we have a very different view on things and I try to see the other side in case I'm being short sighted.

For me, I consider carrying a self-defense weapon empty chambered the equal of driving a car around with no safety belt and thinking you'll always be able to clip it on in time.

There are an awful lot of self-defense situations that either involve contact-distance or some other circumstance that could very possibly tie up your non-gun hand, say fending off the bad-guy, shoving a loved one out of the way or behind you, or trying to open a door or something to create an avenue of escape.

In my book that is no time to need both hands in order to get your firearm functional so I consider empty chamber tactically unsound.

Last edited by ZeSpectre; March 21, 2009 at 10:12 PM.
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Old March 21, 2009, 11:11 PM   #71
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BigBill,

Ditto on most of the posts:
-Carry w/ one in chamber.
-Ankle carry as primary?
-Don't be a hero.
-Practice w/ primary weapon.

.380 loaded w/ quality hollowpoints is a whole lot better than nothing.
SP101 in IWB is weighty and bulky and you may find yourself not carrying as often (short trip to grocery, bank, pizza run).
P3AT or LCP can ALWAYS be on you!
These handguns have the same safety feature a revolver does----DAO with stiff trigger. Safeties almost always have an audible click and safety should be undone while drawing, not when aiming----it's just something else to remember in a severe crisis. Minimize steps in bad situations---pull, point, fire, repeat third step until threat is over.
Oh, by the way, I don't believe the LCP has a lock-back at the end of a magazine, so either count your shots or be prepared to rack the slide again, after getting another mag and inserting it.
Practice, practice, practice!!
With a snap cap and timer, see how long it takes you to start (using your normal carry mode) and fire your weapon.
With a .380, fire, fire, fire, run for cover and reassess.
Of course, if you had a .45, then fire once and be done with the whole mess!
You could also practice by putting your cell phone at your normal carry spot and have a friend call you randomly (different/short/rapid ring tone) and see how fast you can answer it. (just don't do that too often, otherwise you may put your handgun to your ear when you hear your phone ring!)
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Old March 22, 2009, 12:40 AM   #72
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.380acp not my choice, but if your confident with it then more power to you.

I would not be carrying my primary gun in an ankle holster, but I don't know the OP's situation.

I do believe that not having a round in the chamber could be a recipe for disaster for alot of reasons that have been hashed out too many times before.

With that being said, I think I would try to comply, but I will not stand by while the BG is shooting people. Maybe some people on this forum have walked into their bank, and while standing in line, thought about what they would do personally if this situation was presented to them. My bank is small, almost always busy, and have roped aisle ways making quick movement almost impossible. There are offices on either side of the bank, and the tellers are not protected by bullet prooof glass as they were at my old bank. This all becomes a factor, and that day their might be even more variables we didn't think would happen. All of this would probably make me not shoot unless absolutely necessary.

Situational awareness is key if you want to be a good witness, or if you decide to shoot. Looking for cover, preferably some where a person can't get to you from behind. If the guy comes in shooting and everyone else hits the ground except for one guy standing near the door, then he may be the gunman's partner. He could also just be a customer who is frozen solid. All of these variables have to be accounted for, which is why I think I would comply unless deadly force was the only option left.
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Old March 22, 2009, 12:39 PM   #73
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Not to put you on the spot but it seems that we have a very different view on things and I try to see the other side in case I'm being short sighted.
No problem, I just think that since this issue has been hashed over so much and so often that you will get a much better understand of both sides and their views by checking out the lengthy exchanges already out there with the reasoning, the analysis, the questions, and so on. that way we don't hijack this thread onto a C1 vs C3 debate.
Quote:
For me, I consider carrying a self-defense weapon empty chambered the equal of driving a car around with no safety belt and thinking you'll always be able to clip it on in time.
And that is part of the problem, whiich is that most folks opposed to chamber empty as an aoption only look at one very narrow set of circumstances, highly hypothetical, without looking at the full CCW paradigm.
Quote:
There are an awful lot of self-defense situations that either involve contact-distance or some other circumstance that could very possibly tie up your non-gun hand, say fending off the bad-guy, shoving a loved one out of the way or behind you, or trying to open a door or something to create an avenue of escape.
While one might think that, in reality it just doesn't seem to have been an issue. Remember that chamber empty was the norm around the world, including the U.S., for most of the 20th Century, and if there was much of an actual problem with it we probably would have seen it by now.
Quote:
In my book that is no time to need both hands in order to get your firearm functional so I consider empty chamber tactically unsound.
And if that is what works for you, great. Lots of others, in lots of places, for a lot of time, have found otherwise.
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Old March 22, 2009, 12:55 PM   #74
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And that is part of the problem, whiich is that most folks opposed to chamber empty as an aoption only look at one very narrow set of circumstances, highly hypothetical, without looking at the full CCW paradigm.
That is as cryptic a statement as can be found anywhere on TFL. What does that mean? What exactly is the CCW paradigm?
Quote:
Remember that chamber empty was the norm around the world, including the U.S., for most of the 20th Century
And why do you suppose this was? Was it purely by choice?...or was it because of equipment safety limitations? Is there a paradigm shift in there somewhere? I think there is...
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Old March 22, 2009, 02:14 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Armstrong
Remember that chamber empty was the norm around the world, including the U.S., for most of the 20th Century
I don't think this is a true statement and I have never seen any evidence of it being true. Maybe, someone could point that evidence out if I missed it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Creature
What exactly is the CCW paradigm?
That is a good question. I too, would like to know that one.
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