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Old March 4, 2009, 01:51 PM   #1
Big Bill
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What would you do in this situation?

I was at my bank (which was robbed recently by an armed gunman) the other day and started thinking about the following scenario:

What would I have done had I been in the bank the day it was robbed. I carry concealed a Ruger LCP with two extra mags. The bank robber came into the bank and fired a shot into the air. So, he was obviously locked and loaded. I ankle carry and am a little slow getting to my weapon. My thought was that had I tried to interrupt in this situation, there is a good chance I would have been shot. I also don't carry one in the chamber for safety reasons. But, I also feel like I would be a coward if I didn't do something.

Now, what should I do differently to be a better CCW holder? What would you do in a similar situation?

(BTW, they caught the guy a couple of weeks later.)
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Old March 4, 2009, 01:57 PM   #2
Ricky
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I'd lay low unless it looks like he is going to start shooting innocent people.

Even if you were able to get your gun out and chamber a round without being noticed by the gunman if you shot him with your .380 I would think it very possible for him to return fire. You might die a hero, I'd rather go home.
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Old March 4, 2009, 01:57 PM   #3
Bartholomew Roberts
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I'd have watched him rob the bank because I have no interest in risking my life to protect the bank's money and even less interest in spending several thousand dollars in legal fees in order to protect the bank's money.

Now if I thought there was an immediate threat of death or serious injury to myself or someone else, then I guess you fight with what you've got and not what you wish you had. Although even there, my general thought is that if you don't care enough about your own life to arm yourself and get trained, why should I care enough to help you?
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Old March 4, 2009, 01:59 PM   #4
ranger dave
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are you a cop

you can only use deadly force if you or someone esles life is in danger lay on the floor and till then
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Old March 4, 2009, 01:59 PM   #5
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
Now, what should I do differently to be a better CCW holder?
Change this for one thing:

Quote:
I also don't carry one in the chamber for safety reasons.

So far as acting against the guy. (I'll catch some flak for this) Don't do anything unless you feel that people are going to die. The bank has insurance to cover their losses. There's no need to kill over money, especially when it's not yours. He didn't end up shooting anyone so (hind sight, obviously) the safe thing was compliance in this case. The thing is, especially in bank robberies, compliance is almost always the safe thing. VERY VERY few banks robberies turn violent. You are MUCH more likely to die or get others killed if you start a shoot out, more so when you're gun is an expensive brick that you have to load before it's ready.
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Old March 4, 2009, 02:04 PM   #6
Dan M.
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Big Bill, the LCP is small enough to carry in a pocket holster. If you want to be a better CCW holder, I say get a good pocket holster or IWB that covers the trigger and carry with a round chambered. And don't interrupt a bank robbery unless the robber is starting to shoot witnesses and he's working his way toward you.
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Old March 4, 2009, 02:09 PM   #7
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It's the job of yhe police to take on the bad guys. By shooting at them someone could of been killed in the bank. Best not to do anything in that situation.
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Old March 4, 2009, 02:11 PM   #8
Big Bill
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Thanks for clarifying some of the issues for me. I also wondered what I'd do if a couple of BGs were exiting the bank after robbing it and I was outside the bank with my little gun. I guess the solution to some of the issues here are obvious.
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Old March 4, 2009, 02:13 PM   #9
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I agree with everything said. Especially carrying with one in the chamber. To me if you don't have one in the chamber, you don't trust yourself. My M&P9 only has a trigger safety and it always has one in the chamber. Why? because I know the trigger is not going to accidentally get pulled. My blackhawk holster covers the entire trigger guard. And my finger is the only finger that will ever touch the trigger while I'm carrying. If somebody doesn't trust their self enough to not pull the trigger on accident, I don't know if they should be carrying.
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Old March 4, 2009, 02:13 PM   #10
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The bank is insured in the event of a robbery. If the guy just fired a shot into the air I would lay low. But, that all change if he were to threaten my life or somebody else's.

I think (somebody correct me if I'm wrong) that bank employees are taught to cooperate and give the robber the money rather than risk their lives trying to fight about it. Money can be replaced, but a human life can't be.

Also, I would carry with one in the chamber. I would also consider getting an IWB holster or a different non-ankle way of carrying. Drawing from an ankle holster is a bit awkward (at least for me).

In any situation I would draw my gun/fire it only as a last resort and only if there was imminent threat of death/bodily harm. I know there are some people on here who would shoot at anybody who breaks into their house (and that's fine for them). But I'd rather lose my purse, get all my stuff stolen, or see a bank robbed of it's money (assuming it looked like nobody would be hurt) than fire a shot. I'll use a gun as an absolute last resort only.
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Old March 4, 2009, 02:13 PM   #11
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In my case, I am going to remain calm and do as I am told. I am a family man and the sole provider for my family, My family is my life and through Iraq a few times and personal experiences. If I am doing as the robber wants and I am still being threatened, I will do as I am told.

Only if threatened to the point that I think I am going to die then I will attempt to use my CCW. Honest opinion.
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Old March 4, 2009, 02:35 PM   #12
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Quote:
I am going to remain calm and do as I am told.
Would that go as far as surrendering your weapon to him or allowing him to search you for it?
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Old March 4, 2009, 02:42 PM   #13
chemgirlie
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Quote:
Would that go as far as surrendering your weapon to him or allowing him to search you for it?
Nope. I think most people robbing a bank would like to get in and out as fast as possible and wouldn't want to hassle themselves with searching each person there. That is also where laying low and not sticking out comes into play.
However, I would not let anybody get a hold of my gun ever. period.
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Old March 4, 2009, 03:14 PM   #14
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However, I would not let anybody get a hold of my gun ever. period.
Great advice. If you are somewhere getting robbed and they start doing personal searches then they aren't there to get in and get out. BG's that plan on sticking around don't usually do nice things to people they make stick around with them.

I would NEVER under ANY circumstances allow myself to be taken hostage.

Yes that is an absolute statement, and yes I realize it makes me seem like some 'NET mall ninja wanna be, or whatever. if you can act decisively with surprise, that seems like the perfect situation for it.
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Old March 4, 2009, 03:54 PM   #15
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As to the use of deadly force in that situation, it depends on where you live. In some states you have to think your life is in danger and some even require an effort at retreat.

Florida says your life, or the life of others are in danger, or to prevent a violent felony, such as armed robbery.

So depending on your state, you may have been in your right to shoot.

But ankle holster, without one in the chamber? Try to shoot in that situation, and you're going to die.

I'd reconsider your carry method.
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Old March 4, 2009, 04:39 PM   #16
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If the bank robber has a gun, you really don't know what he's going to do next. His adrenaline is pumping and his finger is twitching. Obeying his commands MAY save you, but then again they MAY put you in a disadvantaged position. Let's say he says "Everybody on your knees, hands behind your head," and you comply. Now you have much less chance of getting a hand on your weapon without being noticed. You are at his mercy. If he then shoots another customer what do you do?

I'm not saying compliance is wrong, and I know we could come up with dozens of hypothetical variations. Ordinarily I don't like beating dead horses, but in the case of self defense CCW scenarios I would rather hash and rehash from the comfort of my chair and reason out different responses in the hopes that it could one day help me decide what to do when my life is on the line.
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Old March 4, 2009, 06:16 PM   #17
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First:
Get a REAL gun. That Ruger is NOT a primary carry weapon.
Second:
Carry it in a way that allows you to actually bring it into action if necessary.
Third:
Watch carefully, and, stay OUT of the gun sites. For me, if the guy points a loaded gun at me, I'm moving, and shooting.
Do NOT do anything unless he starts shooting people.
Keep in mind, you don't know if he had a vest on, so, you don't even know what your target area was, and, if you are capable of hitting that area.

If a firefight is started, get to cover, fast. Locate all bad guys, and try and stay behind cover.
Let them leave...

The use of deadly force is only likely to be approved if you have proof that he is going to shoot people. The best evidence of that is that he ACTUALLY shoots someone. If he does, and, it's not you, you should be able to get your weapon out, and into action while he's focused on shooting the other person.
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Old March 4, 2009, 06:31 PM   #18
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+1 on whats already been put out there. If you are going to carry IMO you need a 9mm or larger and one in the chamber.
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Old March 4, 2009, 06:32 PM   #19
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are you a cop
you can only use deadly force if you or someone esles life is in danger lay on the floor and till then
A gun fired to the ceiling is a threat to my life... Presented a gun is a bad enuff but discharge shows intent. I would never ankle carry as it is a far reach and slow draw... but in the instance mentioned if I had a gun it would be at the 2 o'clock and I would dump it as my body hit the floor... first opportunity I am droppin the crook/s but not at increase risk to me or others. Otherwise I am gonna lay on it. If I am personally approached it is every man for himself as I go 2 COM on 'em! Likely I wouldn't have a gun and at that time I will go "octopus humping a coke bottle" on 'em or stick and git with a buck 110 folder... I just don't like the mentality that I have to reduce myself to victim/prey when I am in the top 10 predator list already!
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Old March 4, 2009, 06:56 PM   #20
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Quote:
are you a cop

you can only use deadly force if you or someone esles life is in danger lay on the floor and till then
Not entirely true. Idaho statute says a bit different.

Quote:
18-4009. JUSTIFIABLE HOMICIDE BY ANY PERSON. Homicide is also justifiable
when committed by any person in either of the following cases:
1. When resisting any attempt to murder any person, or to commit a
felony, or to do some great bodily injury upon any person; or,
http://law.justia.com/idaho/codes/18ftoc/180400009.html

What would i do??? Depends on the dimeanor of the BG. Could I get to my gun without him noticing? Was he going to shoot a bystander? An ankle carry doesn't seem to me to be a good place to carry a gun and get to it quickly. Good place for a BUG but not first line of defense. Also, I've always gone by the code, if a gun isn't loaded, it's no use to me. I don't want to have to rack the slide if a BG is already shooting. But that's just me. If I was in your britches, at that time, I would have done what I was told and survived the ordeal.
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Old March 4, 2009, 08:04 PM   #21
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I used to have only one carry pistol, a Keltec PF9. It did not have a safety on it ad felt the same way you did. I didn't have one in the chamber for fear that I might pull the trigger or fear of my daughter being harmed if there was an accidental firing. So I bought a PX4 Storm SC which has a safety and a decocker. I feel much more comfortable now with one in the chamber. I have always been told also the carrying on the ankle should be your last resort because it is so hard to get to your gun in tense situations. There for try carrying IWB or pocket carry. Hope this helps some.
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Old March 4, 2009, 08:05 PM   #22
Big Bill
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Thanks for the additional comments. I think I'll carry my new SP101 IWB. I also have 4 speedloaders for it. And, I'll probably carry my Ruger LCP in pocket carry mode. Thanks again for all the great advice.

wcpexpert - that's why I live in IDAHO.
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Old March 4, 2009, 09:16 PM   #23
chris in va
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Quote:
I ankle carry and am a little slow getting to my weapon
Quote:
I also don't carry one in the chamber for safety reasons.
You may want to re-think those choices.
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Old March 5, 2009, 09:24 AM   #24
Bartholomew Roberts
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Tac Pro Shooting Center hosts a 3-gun match here twice a year. For one year, they introduced Simunitions into the match and did a bank holdup scenario similar to the one you are describing.

They had the robber standing in line at the teller's desk and when he got to the front he pulled a gun and robbed the place. Unknown to the people going through the scenarios, another of their fellow "customers" was actually a bad guy as well and watching the other guy's back.

IIRC, two people managed to even shoot the guy doing the initial robbery and I think one guy cleared the whole thing while only being hit in the arm. Everyone else "died" in that scenario except those that complied.

Keep in mind, these guys weren't actually at a bank. They knew there was going to be some shooting and they were waiting to do it. Their situational awareness could not have been any higher. Despite that, the only guy who was successful was the guy who acted immediately - he didn't pause at all. As soon as he saw the guy start to behave threateningly, he drew his pistol and shot him in the back of the head. In real life, going for your CCW when someone raises their voice might be an issue.

Now the lesson here isn't "Always comply" because that will certainly get you killed sometimes too. But it definitely impressed on me that those things rarely play out the way you would like them to on your little mental movie reel where you are the action hero. If I am going to bet my life on something, I am going to do my best to make sure the odds are in my favor and the prize is something worth my life.
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Old March 5, 2009, 09:49 AM   #25
Travelin' Man
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Quote:
you can only use deadly force if you or someone esles life is in danger lay on the floor and till then
Forgive me for not knowing this, but wouldn't an armed robber walking through a door and firing a shot into the ceiling constitute the possibility of your life or someone else's life being in danger?

Last edited by Travelin' Man; March 5, 2009 at 09:58 AM. Reason: spelling correction
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