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Old March 12, 2009, 11:35 AM   #51
Guy B. Meredith
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Okay, then how does one go about being able to own and compete with handguns in Oz?

Is it true that the police, as I've heard, monitor competition matches?

We visited to consider emigration in 1987, but I perceive that the society has a sort of boss mentality that would affect simple individual freedoms like gun ownership so that thought has been put on hold. At the time my wife wanted a few thousand miles between her and her family as well, but that has changed.

It was encouraging to meet the Aussie revolver competitors at the International Revolver Championship in Moro Bay, California, but I am curious as to what they need to go through to be able to compete.

My wife is from the Malabar area, her cousin has a sheep station in the Snowy highlands and the photo on my desk was taken on one of the best days of my life--striding across the paddocks in heavy jacket with my Aussie in-laws and the stock dogs moving the sheep just outside the photo.
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Old March 12, 2009, 06:28 PM   #52
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sounds like one step from communism. I cant believe any group of people would stand for this.
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Old March 13, 2009, 04:22 AM   #53
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Handgun competition in Oz...

G'Day Guy,

Quote:
Okay, then how does one go about being able to own and compete with handguns in Oz?
A new applicant must submit to a complete police background check.
Having passed that, one must be accepted at a 'recognised' pistol club.
Except for police, military, large property owners, security guards and a few "dangerous business" (like crocodile keepers, for example) exemptions, no other reason to own & shoot a functioning handgun is acceptable. If one
collects handguns, one must apply to the police for a permit to shoot them, usually on a specified date at a specified range location. After a six month 'probation period' with your club, you are permitted to own a handgun. It must be kept in an approved safe and transported only to and from the range, in your home state or with permission and a letter of invitation, to a match in another state. No other transportation is permitted on a target shooting permit. See the various police firearms registry websites here:

http://www.ssaa.org.au/newssaa/secur...n/lawindex.htm

Quote:
Is it true that the police, as I've heard, monitor competition matches?
Yes, in a roundabout way. In the Northern Territory for example, twelve organised match shoots per year are required to retain an "H" licence and justify one handgun, 14 for two, etc.. Other states require less shoots than the N.T. and also apply a sliding scale to the number of shoots required to justify more than one type of handgun. The club secretary/shoot captain must record the matches, dates and shooter's name and licence number for each shooter and make this list available to police upon demand. In the N.T. a card is also issued by the police which must be produced each year to renew the "H" licence. In the ACT, where I am now, the licence is for five years and no shoot card is separately maintained - the secretary/shoot captain counts the shoots and issues a certificate of completion to renew club membership annually.

Quote:
We visited to consider emigration in 1987, but I perceive that the society has a sort of boss mentality that would affect simple individual freedoms like gun ownership so that thought has been put on hold. At the time my wife wanted a few thousand miles between her and her family as well, but that has changed.
Yep on the "boss mentality". And not just with guns. There is an urban elite that is politically omnipotent. The recent bushfires in Victoria provide an example. The Green lobby effectively stopped all clearing of 'native' bush in Victoria. Australian native bush burns like gasoline - rural communities need to have firebreaks and clearance strategies in place. Whole small towns are incinerated during a hot dry spell, the urban elite says: "Why do people insist on living where there is a fire risk."

There is a very different perception of individual freedom here as compared to the U.S.. I won't credit the conventional wisdom: "Australia began as a convict settlement and never quite got away from the attitude", but certainly the average Aussie accepts/expects more government intervention in his/her life than at least rural/small town Yanks. Perhaps the fact that around 85% of Australians live in or within 100km of a major city has something to do with it.

Quote:
My wife is from the Malabar area, her cousin has a sheep station in the Snowy highlands and the photo on my desk was taken on one of the best days of my life--striding across the paddocks in heavy jacket with my Aussie in-laws and the stock dogs moving the sheep just outside the photo.
My wife and I spend as much of every summer as we can up in the Snowies.
Got friends at Jindabyne we stay with. That part of Australia is very much unique - alpine habitat comprises only some 1% of the continent. Australia is an awe-inspiring, diverse, beautiful, amazing place, extremely poorly served by its politicians and political parties. Where isn't?

As for camel shooting: If you're gonna sell 'em get with it. They're breeding up so fast in the central N.T. and Western Australia that habitat is being severely degraded. Camels will eat whatever is left after cattle and sheep have quit!

A .45/70 with 300 grain JHP at 2,000 fps will drop a camel nicely. As the poster alluded, you gotta catch 'em first.
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Old March 13, 2009, 05:43 AM   #54
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I am in Canberra, (A.C.T)

Yup, the gun laws stink here too. It all came about in 1996, when some military guy went to Port Arthur in Tasmania, and shot and killed 33 (mostly Asian) tourists, wearing a blonde wig to resemble a bloke they decided to frame, called Martin Bryant. The wig was found floating off the jetty at Port Arthur, but was unfortunately LOST :barf: The whole thing stinks of conspiricy, if you do a google on "Martin Bryant" or "Port Arthur Massacre" you can read all about it. He (Martin Bryant) was actually on closed circuit tv at a gas station 65 Km away from Port Arthur when the shootings occured, (but that got lost too) and the person that did the shooting did all head and neck shots (Kill shots) there were 3 people injured. Martin Bryant had only ever owned a .175 slug (BB) air rifle. He did not have the skill to shoot anyone let alone 33 head and neck shots in a row. Whoever did it was a professional. Bryant proved that when he returned to the property near Port Arthur after being lured there by the police, and funnily enough, there was an AK47 and 250 rounds of ammo in the homestead. He was surrounded by Police and he fired 250 rounds at the police and their vehicles and didnt hit anything..... nothing. So, how could he have shot 33 dead, and only injure 3? Most civillian massacres would be 33 injured, 3 dead.... not the other way round. The purpose of the setup was to initiate the gun buy back in Australia, which has cost the country Millions of dollars, and has had no impact on gun crime (in fact gun crime had quadrupled).... you see, only law abiding citizens handed in their guns, the criminals must have forgotten to.
In England, they also set up a massacre (Dun Blayne) to get their buyback, it cost the poms 80 million POUNDS, and their handgun crime has increased 5 fold and is still increasing. Their criminals must have forgotten to hand theirs in too?
Guns in responsible hands are perfectly safe, guns in criminal hands will always be totally unsafe. A shame the sheeple cant distinguish between safe sporting shooters and criminals?! :barf:

I posted a thread the other day outlining our gun laws in canberra, you might like to read this too. It is in the general handgun forum, I called it "Handguns Down Under, an insight" from about 2 days ago

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Old March 13, 2009, 08:12 AM   #55
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G'day, please keep this thread on topic. That is what the Australian gun laws are, and how it is affecting us now. Not who may or may not by responsible for the Port Arthur shootings.
Thank you.
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Old March 13, 2009, 11:46 AM   #56
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Sorry Skull

I just thought, as someone asked about why our laws are as tuff as they are, that some background on how the Aus Govt, organised the PAM to get their useless gun buyback, so the sheeple would accept the fruitless disarming of the responsible citizens, at majour cost to the seeple themselves, and not loose any votes in the process. My apologies, matey, I thought it was relevent and on topic.

cheers, Muzza
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Old March 13, 2009, 11:56 AM   #57
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Guy B

No, the police dont monitor competition matches as such. They ask clubs for attendance sheets to make sure shooters are attending their range and shooting their 6 comps for the year (Primary club) and 4 shoots per year (each other club) The SSAA (governing body) here in Canberra wont hand in the iformation (so I have been told) as they believe it is a privacy issue. Sometimes when putting in for a permit to aquire, the registrar will demand a letter from your clubs stating you are conforming to the legislation, If you cant give them the letters of proof, you loose your guns.

The police arent standing behind you, ready to arrest you if you flinch (fortunately)
Actually, they have no right to be on or at the range unless called by someone, as the range belongs to the SSAA and is therefore private property.

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Old March 14, 2009, 06:15 AM   #58
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Better check that one again, Muzza....

Quote:
The police arent standing behind you, ready to arrest you if you flinch (fortunately) Actually, they have no right to be on or at the range unless called by someone, as the range belongs to the SSAA and is therefore private property.
The Australian Federal Police have the right to enter any firing range at any time to ensure compliance. They also have the right to enter any licencee's home if a breach of the weapons laws is suspected.
The term,"private property" has little meaning in the ACT, especially as pertains to firearms licences.
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Old March 15, 2009, 12:02 AM   #59
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Self Defense

Gents,

Since one cannot own a firearm for self defense in Australia I'm interested in opinions on the following:

If your house was being burgled and/or you perceived the intruder to be a threat to your life or the life of your family members what would happen if you shot/killed the intruder?

Has there been a case like this in Australia?

Does the "no firearm for self defense" apply to other weapons such as knives/bows?

I'm originally from South Africa (where violent crime is an epidemic) and my mind boggles at the "logic" that prevents a citizen from arming themselves for self defense.

Cheers
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Old March 15, 2009, 12:25 AM   #60
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What?? Harm a violent criminal? How uncivilized. What's it getting to in the Colonies?

Seems like we've had threads indicating that hindering criminals is not acceptable with the exception of fisticuffs.
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Old March 15, 2009, 12:35 AM   #61
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G'day. I have heard of cases where intruders have been shot as HD/SD in Aus. From memory the defender has not suffered greatly from prosecution assuming storage and licencing was in order.
HD/SD is not grounds for ownership, but that does not mean you can't use all tools at your disposal.
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Old March 15, 2009, 12:41 AM   #62
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With having to pull the weapon from an approved safe? What sort of safes are required? Easy access or good strategic planning on the part of the firearm owner?
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Old March 15, 2009, 04:51 AM   #63
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Ben, my friend in the U.S. is not a gun owner and has no interest in firearms. He is somewhat troubled by the perception that if you 'look at someone the wrong way' or upset a stranger especially when driving, you're liable to be confronted by a person producing a handgun and maybe using it.

Because of our super-tight handgun rules in Australia that's not a common perception here. Which of course doesn't save you from facing physical violence here especially if you're at a night-spot like a pub or nightclub. Alcohol fuelled violence is becoming ever more prevalent in Oz society. We have a drinking culture here.

Other cultural differences are a perceived different work ethic and workplace culture between what my mate views as the Australian attitude and the U.S. one, and the strong social impacts of different racial attitudes and groups. Going into the details, reasons and aspects would just about fill a book. And we suffer from a similar dose of political correctness as you guys so I have to be careful what I say.

Our Aboriginals don't have the same sort of presence in the big cities as African Americans. Maybe more like Native Americans perhaps??

Something I find intriguing is how (according to my friend) the residents in the housing estate he lives in are pressured to keep their property neat and tidy according to a set standard. He doesn't live in a high value estate but he better not let his lawn get too long. Not such a bad idea really, given here in West Oz you can just about get away with cultivating a jungle before local councils jump on your case. Your house is regarded as your castle here...until the Government wants the land for some other purpose. It can be compulsorily reclaimed, with compensation paid at a pretty low rate. Doesn't happen often but it does happen. You never really own your plot in Oz!

Interestingly, the States seems to have lower standards of housing and workmanship than that allowed here in major cities in West Oz. I don't see that as a bad thing, but housing costs are painfully high over here.

This one gave me a bit of a giggle. When my mate moved into the housing estate his family and he were invited to a barbecue. One of the guests asked him what church he went to. He's not a churchgoer and said so. He was looked at askance and the only reply a judgmental "Oh!"
Here in Oz we don't give a rats what church you go to or otherwise - except perhaps if it's a mosque. That would tweak some interest.

You have to remember the population of Oz is less now than the States had at the time of the Civil War. And the folks who migrated to America in such huge numbers were often financially barren, desperate old-worlders suddenly facing conditions of human conflict with other ethnic groups, Native Americans, cattle barons etc. The U.S. was founded in conflict, the need for firearms absolute. Ours wasn't.

Our culture and heirarchy hasn't been shaped by the relatively small convict kickstart so much as the English attitude that came with it. We always went on about egalitarianism here. But there's always been a fairly strong elitist 'us-and-them' culture hiding quietly behind it. And our big conflicts have been mostly fought in other lands.
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Old March 15, 2009, 12:20 PM   #64
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Your friend, Ben, must live in a "good" neighborhood. The areas where it is necessary to be careful about "dissing" others with a look are pretty bad areas. Much of this is gang mentality. If I were living there I would very much want to have firearms protection.

Some ethnic neighborhoods where African Americans, Chinese, Vietnamese, legal Latino residents, East Indians or such fall to that level and some do not. Greatly influenced by economics.

In other areas African Americans and other ethnic groups are part of the professionals and even Yuppies where there is a pretty livable culture. Well, actually some of us... A lot of us think Yuppies are insufferable with their materialism and conformity, but they get equal disdain regardless of race or ethnic background.

I work in an area with a heavy African American population and a significant portion of Xerox's professional / executive workforce is black. Your friend could come here and feel quite comfortable at the workplace or suburbs. They even have the leftist fear of firearms. I nearly gave one black sales manager a heart attack when I mentioned the web site "Black Man with a Gun".

Outside housing projects the local city governments may regulate tidiness to keep up neighborhood image, economic desirability and safety. In most areas of suburban California housing is developed in tracts of homes by a single company. The people who purchase these homes often must accept dictates of a Home Owners Association and they can get downright pi@@y about what color the house can be painted, how often, etc. Rural areas usually are more individualistic.

I agree about the Pommey heritage playing a larger part than the convict society. Likewise the fact that the United States came about due to conflict.

The former colonies that evolved without conflict into independent (sort of) countries seem to have retained the Brit mindset. That would be other than people like my wife who often makes comments about "Shtupid pommeys" (Aussie pronunciation) and "Worthless royals--ought to dump that lot".

The United States was a dumping ground for political dissidents more than convicts (except for Georgia) and that probably makes the difference. Our Bill of Rights (civil rights) come directly as a repudiation of British practices at the time or distrust of control from the top. Firearms ownership protection comes from both.
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Old March 15, 2009, 03:50 PM   #65
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Quote:
Actually, they have no right to be on or at the range unless called by someone, as the range belongs to the SSAA and is therefore private property

This is not true police have the right to enter any private property!
I have seen them there a number of times doing random checks.
If you are the only one shooting at the range and your guns are left unattended while your checking your target and they show up they can take at their discretion your fire arms on the spot!

If your lucky you’ll get a warning if they take them this then becomes a matter for the court's,
99% of the time you get them back but the hassle and cost is BS.
Our club members have been warned about this and the club has provided a steel cabinet that you must put your fire arm into before going forward.
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Old March 15, 2009, 05:57 PM   #66
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As one who dwells in both camps, so to speak.....

Hello Foxrr,

Quote:
He is somewhat troubled by the perception that if you 'look at someone the wrong way' or upset a stranger especially when driving, you're liable to be confronted by a person producing a handgun and maybe using it.
As Guy noted, this perception would only be valid in certain inner-city areas and some towns with a heavy gang presence. More importantly, cases of unjustified use of a firearm by a CCW licence holder are very rare. Any person threatening to shoot you over a 'look' is likely not legally carrying the gun. During my three months in Arizona last year, I found folks to be exceedingly polite. A bit of a shock after urban Australia!

Quote:
Because of our super-tight handgun rules in Australia that's not a common perception here. Which of course doesn't save you from facing physical violence here especially if you're at a night-spot like a pub or nightclub. Alcohol fuelled violence is becoming ever more prevalent in Oz society. We have a drinking culture here.
You ought to travel around in Western Sydney a bit! There's quite a bit of gang activity and gunplay there, at least by Australian standards. Australia overall has a higher violent crime rate (excluding homicide) than the U.S.A. - certainly Australia's alcohol culture here plays a part in that.

Quote:
Our Aboriginals don't have the same sort of presence in the big cities as African Americans. Maybe more like Native Americans perhaps??
Having lived in Alice Springs for five years, I'd say your comparison is generally valid. Both cultures suffer tremendous substance abuse problems and perhaps a similar difficulty in assimilating into modern society. While I was peacefully panhandled by a Navajo in the parking lot of the Flagstaff Mall, I have been "stood over" by groups of Aborigines on Hartley St. in Alice Springs. I had a revolver in my pocket at Flagstaff - perhaps the awareness of that possibility in the mind of the Navajo guy contributed to the politeness of the panhandling?

Quote:
Your house is regarded as your castle here...until the Government wants the land for some other purpose. It can be compulsorily reclaimed, with compensation paid at a pretty low rate. Doesn't happen often but it does happen. You never really own your plot in Oz!
Here in the ACT, you never "own" your plot of land. When you buy a home, the land it sits upon is a perpetual lease fron the ACT government and they may resume it with compensation.

Quote:
Interestingly, the States seems to have lower standards of housing and workmanship than that allowed here in major cities in West Oz. I don't see that as a bad thing, but housing costs are painfully high over here.
In my observation, much of U.S. housing is of quite high standard when compared to Australia, especially with regard to insulation and heating/cooling. My daughter just purchased a near new four bedroom two-bath home outside Atlanta for USD$150,000. Granted this is a bargain time for housing in parts of the U.S. but that amount converted to AUD$ would not even buy a hovel here in Canberra. Australia suffers from a chronic shortage of housing in the cities due to a combination of lack of incentive for builders to build, ridiculously restrictive state and council land-release policies, and continuing immigration demand.

Quote:
...Here in Oz we don't give a rats what church you go to or otherwise - except perhaps if it's a mosque. That would tweak some interest.
Isn't that the truth! Americans have their church, Aussies their pub!

Quote:
Our culture and heirarchy hasn't been shaped by the relatively small convict kickstart so much as the English attitude that came with it. We always went on about egalitarianism here. But there's always been a fairly strong elitist 'us-and-them' culture hiding quietly behind it. And our big conflicts have been mostly fought in other lands.
While only a thousand or so convicts landed in 1788, transportation went on for over half a century, leading to a strong social divide in Australian society between the convicts, "ticket of leave" folks and the free settlers. There was a further divide between settlers 'with means' and those brought out to work the estates and business of the former. I find it notable that while Woodrow Wilson imposed conscription upon the U.S. during WWI, the Australians TWICE voted it down. Aussies may have gone off to fight for "King and Country", but they went voluntarily!
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Old March 15, 2009, 06:07 PM   #67
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Re: "Aussies may have gone off to fight for "King and Country", but they went voluntarily!

Always the quarrelsome lot.
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Old March 15, 2009, 06:49 PM   #68
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yep sorry deleted

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Old March 15, 2009, 07:48 PM   #69
Guy B. Meredith
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I think he was carrying in Arizona, USA.
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Old March 15, 2009, 08:55 PM   #70
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Legally, I might add....

I should have mentioned that I have an Arizona CWP.


Quote:
Always the quarrelsome lot.

Guy, you've been to an Aussie pub or two....
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Old March 15, 2009, 09:23 PM   #71
Guy B. Meredith
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hardhit,

We need shooters alert to things that will affect our image.

fallingblock,

I've only been to Tattersall's where everyone seemed well mannered and maybe a bit stiff, but my wife is Aussie if nothing and her brother has run a couple of "hotels"--rooms upstairs and pub below.

I would very much like to visit Oz again before too many of the interesting in-laws have passed on (and get another kiss from one of your former premier fashion models/buddy of my wife ).

If we are to visit again how would I hook up with shooting clubs and get permission to shoot? When my wife's nephew was here I took him to the range and he enjoyed himself and doing it at home might be a kick. How is firearms transportation handled?
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Old March 15, 2009, 10:03 PM   #72
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Australia needs more Yanks!

On my way to cover for making that statement

Guy, most Aussie pubs ("hotels" also, due to liquor licencing requirements)
are fine places to relax.

I couldn't resist the "quarrelsome lot" remark.

Quote:
I would very much like to visit Oz again before too many of the interesting in-laws have passed on (and get another kiss from one of your former premier fashion models/buddy of my wife ).
There's plenty of incentive! Fares are good at the moment 'cause many airlines are struggling to stay in business and paradoxically offering bargains. I wouldn't book too far in advance.

Quote:
If we are to visit again how would I hook up with shooting clubs and get permission to shoot?
There are SSAA (Sporting Shooters Association of Australia) branches in every state and territory. Their contact details are available on the SSAA national website: http://www.ssaa.org.au/ under "State offices".

The individual state regulations vary. Generally it's much easier to arrange to use a rifle or shotgun than a handgun. In most clubs there are "club guns" of one sort or another available for guest shooters. Depending on the state, one may need to arrange in advance for permission to shoot. Generally speaking, it seems a lot harder to accomplish than it actually is.

Quote:
How is firearms transportation handled?
If you mean bringing one into Australia from another nation,
the best thing to do is start reading up at Customs and then email them for clarification:

http://www.customs.gov.au/webdata/re...-BFirearms.pdf

If you just want to do some shooting locally, getting in touch with a club and arranging for an 'open day' would be an easier option than bringing a firearm with you.

It's a great country and the people are generally warm and friendly.
The politicians are about what one can expect anywhere.:barf:

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Old March 15, 2009, 10:27 PM   #73
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Quote:
If we were to visit again how would I hook up with shooting clubs and get permission to shoot
I can only give you info on the club im with, which is a 300-mtere range, and you are welcome there on any day of the week.
You are allowed a day past but @ $30 dollars honestly it’s a little on the expensive side being a member is the way to go @ $220 per year you can shoot every day if you want to.
They shoot shotgun pistol & black powder but there is a few heralds to jump before you become a member.
Quote:
How is firearms transportation handled?
If talking about traveling to the range fire arm’s should be bagged and if possible left in the boot or covered from view at the range no uncovered fire arm in the car park until you are at your shooting bench and no handling of fire arm when people are forward
If you need go to the police station don’t leave the bolt in the gun, I have herd of people getting reamed by the cops for that.
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Old March 16, 2009, 01:23 AM   #74
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G'day fellas'
Just to clarify..Ben is a previous poster I was answering, not my mate's name. Can't work out how to get 'quotes' up on my replies. My reply page seems to be missing a button or two. I'll have to message the Mods. The fact I'm not hugely computer lit doesn't help.

F/block, I'm with you on your observations. A lot of fellas I know if not drinking at a pub are putting away a few most nights in the 'castle'. For health reasons I can only do a rare rum or two these days. Oz-made Beenleigh rum is the BEST!

Aussies have gone off to fight others' wars since early times. It's not our argumentative streak so much as the small-nation-folks' need to prove how tough we are. And we mostly have I suppose. NZ has the same problem in spades. But it hurts. Our losses in the Great War were appalling. Some say it's bl**dy stupid. I'm not so sure. Sometimes is.

Your comment about the Navajo kind of proves the point. When the other guy suspects you're carrying, he's much more likely to be wary and mind his manners.

Your comments about good manners figures with what my mate says, especially about the kids. Invade Oz, will you? And sort out some of the lousy attitudes and behaviour of quite a lot of our kids if you can. We've been doing something wrong over here. Fairy parenting, and lefty teachers, I'd say. Too many kids' rights, too few obligations.

And if you don't feel like invading, just come for a holiday. It ain't no Africa but it isn't half as bad as just about anywhere else in the world. I'm sure you can get it all sorted if you're determined to hunt or shoot paper. No big probs. Advice given so far is excellent.
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Old March 16, 2009, 07:35 AM   #75
gretske
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Join Date: May 3, 2008
Location: Lake Murray, SC
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I'm curious. I have read differing reports on the number of firearms that were turned in or registered after the regulation. Some studies have suggested that many Ozzies did not turn in their guns or register them, but just went underground, especially in the outback.

How much truth is there to this? Anybody know for sure?
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