The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > Law and Civil Rights

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old March 19, 2009, 01:42 PM   #51
Cerick
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 13, 2008
Location: 973, NJ
Posts: 331
It wasn't the policepersons fault that the address was wrong. Therefore I believe they had the right to be on the property and knock on the door. Even though it wasnt the right house the MP pointed a gun at the police, which can never be justified. I would think somone returning from iraq that had been in the military would have enough common sense not to point a gun at the police. I know they supposedly didnt announce themselves but at least after one saw who was at the door, they would stop resisting, and waving a gun around.

You do have a right to not talk to a police officer to an extent (miranda right) and you can also not stop for a officer under one circumstance. That being if a LEO wants to talk to you to question you about somthing for no reason and he doesn't have the right to, you can keep walking and keep your mouth shut. If you, lets say, fit the description of a robber or criminal of some type after a crime was commited and they want to talk to you, you have to stop. Really because the individual really has no way of knowing why the LEO wants to talk to you, without talking to them, your always better off stoping and asking why. If they want to ask you some questions about anything that may invlove you possibly incriminating yourself, they need to read you your miranda rights, regardless of weather or not they have arrested you. They can ask you your name and basic questions about who you are without your miranda rights being read though. I am a student pursuing a CJ degree so bear with me if not everything I say is spot on, I'm still learning.

If somone bangs on my door at 3am unannounced, I probably will have a gun nearby. If I see its the police, I damn sure wont be pointing a gun at them. Common sense.
Cerick is offline  
Old March 19, 2009, 03:09 PM   #52
OuTcAsT
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2006
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 1,212
Quote:
the MP pointed a gun at the police, which can never be justified
OK Bear with me here, the video attached to my other post only shows a brief clip of what the homeowner says happened, the longer version which aired in it's entirety showed that the H.O. came to the door and opened it with his weapon at "low ready" once he saw it was LE he backed into the doorway, still not pointing AT anyone, and told the officers to back off, as he had no reason to know why they were there. it escalated from there. once he put down the weapon he was given the "treatment" IE:

Quote:
If you resist arrest I guarantee you will be visiting at least an emergency room.
I think he got it

IF his story is to be believed, he did not point a gun at anyone, unfortunately that will be up to a judge to decide. I still think he was within his rights and will be aquitted, but that is MHO.
__________________
WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood

Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska -
OuTcAsT is offline  
Old March 19, 2009, 03:25 PM   #53
Dust Monkey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 24, 2007
Posts: 723
I guess ignorance of the law only works one way. So what, the police "thought that they were at the right place". They still, IMO, were in the wrong. Why do some cops get to walk free, continued to get paid for actions that would land a citizen in jail.

FWIW. I am a former MP. And as such, the actions of these officers, if accurate, are criminal. Even if the cops don't get charged, they need to be fired and to never be hired as an LEO again. They don't have the temperment.
__________________
Civilian Date: 14 Century
1 : a specialist in Roman or modern civil law.
If you are not subject to the UCMJ, you are a Civilian. I don't care one bit what updated dictionaries say.
Dust Monkey is offline  
Old March 19, 2009, 04:54 PM   #54
ilbob
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 29, 2006
Location: Northern Illinois
Posts: 515
LE at its most basic is about government using brute force to enforce its edicts.

Its not surprising that despite a few safeguards in the system, sometimes things happen that should not. Human nature beings being what they are, its rare they will just admit to a screwup of this magnitude. Once the decision is made that they are not going to admit to a screwup, they will do what they have to to protect themselves from the consequences of their own mistakes or misconduct. At that point they care nothing about you, your rights, what is right, or anything else. Just human nature at work.

The system almost always protects its own, so don't expect a whole lot of help there either. Some will say that you can sue after the fact, but that is mostly a futile exercise.

The only thing that will save these citizens from the misconduct of the officers involved is the video. Without it, they would be charged, convicted, and sentenced, even though there was no actual credible evidence that they committed a crime, only the say so of the officers involved, who it appears were actually the ones in the wrong.

These kind of incidents are hopefully not real common. And the increasingly common presence of video is going to make these incidents stand out. One has to wonder how many people were unfairly charged before video was common. And even today, video is present at only a tiny fraction of citizen-police encounters. one has to wonder just how common this kind of thing is.

Quote:
I guess ignorance of the law only works one way. So what, the police "thought that they were at the right place". They still, IMO, were in the wrong. Why do some cops get to walk free, continued to get paid for actions that would land a citizen in jail.
Thats just the way the system is. It sucks but its not real likely to change any.

Realistically, how would you improve it any?
__________________
bob

Disclaimers: I am not a lawyer, cop, soldier, gunsmith, politician, plumber, electrician, or a professional practitioner of many of the other things I comment on in this forum.

Last edited by ilbob; March 19, 2009 at 05:00 PM.
ilbob is offline  
Old March 19, 2009, 05:21 PM   #55
Dust Monkey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 24, 2007
Posts: 723
ilbob. The answer is so multi faceted. I agree with most of what you said and have some ideas on how to change things. Non of my which will make a dent in the problem unless the public gets mad (I don't mean violence) I mean outraged enough to demand a change. Right now, no one really cares until it happens to them.
__________________
Civilian Date: 14 Century
1 : a specialist in Roman or modern civil law.
If you are not subject to the UCMJ, you are a Civilian. I don't care one bit what updated dictionaries say.
Dust Monkey is offline  
Old March 19, 2009, 06:15 PM   #56
Wagonman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 11, 2008
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 987
You can't "fix" what's not broken. There is not an epidemic of these incidents. Excrement happens. Comply on scene. Litigate later. Problem solved. Unless, you WANT to be an aggrieved party.
Wagonman is offline  
Old March 19, 2009, 06:19 PM   #57
OuTcAsT
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2006
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 1,212
Quote:
Its not surprising that despite a few safeguards in the system, sometimes things happen that should not. Human nature beings being what they are, its rare they will just admit to a screwup of this magnitude. Once the decision is made that they are not going to admit to a screwup, they will do what they have to to protect themselves from the consequences of their own mistakes or misconduct. At that point they care nothing about you, your rights, what is right, or anything else. Just human nature at work.

While this may be true in a small amount, I don't think it's fair to paint with such a broad brush. LEOs are, for the most part, good guys doing a tough job, and just want to get home safe.

This case will play out, and we will see how the system works.

Unless the bloviation continues and this thread gets locked, I will continue to watch this with interest, and post updates as they become available.
__________________
WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood

Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska -
OuTcAsT is offline  
Old March 19, 2009, 06:34 PM   #58
MrNiceGuy
Junior member
 
Join Date: August 16, 2008
Posts: 919
Maybe I've missed where someone was concerned about who actually made the phone call and what happened to them?

The police managed to go to the wrong residence at 3am, get a reaction out of the occupants, and neglect their duties to respond to the correct address.

I'm sure the police could go door to door almost anywhere at 3am and get someone to respond in a defensive manner, but i'd hardly call that a good bust...

The police were the cause of the "problem"
without their incompetence, the officers would have never even met these people
MrNiceGuy is offline  
Old March 19, 2009, 06:49 PM   #59
OuTcAsT
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2006
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 1,212
Quote:
Maybe I've missed where someone was concerned about who actually made the phone call and what happened to them?
The call was a prank, made by some college kids ( This complex is right next to a state university ) Then the address was botched by the dispatcher, and finally wound up getting two guys in trouble for just being at home asleep.


:barf:
__________________
WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood

Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska -
OuTcAsT is offline  
Old March 19, 2009, 06:56 PM   #60
MrNiceGuy
Junior member
 
Join Date: August 16, 2008
Posts: 919
I must have missed that
I wonder how long it took from the conclusion of these events until they checked the correct address and discovered it was a prank.
MrNiceGuy is offline  
Old March 19, 2009, 08:04 PM   #61
Dust Monkey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 24, 2007
Posts: 723
"Comply on scene". So at 3AM, I am asleep. Loud banging on my apartment door. Someone yells police. I can't tell if they are real officers or not. I have no need for the police, I didn't call them. My rights are already violated. I either open the door (yes a gun would be in my hand) or call the PD to confirm ( if the cops have the patience to wait and allow me to do that.) Once confirmed. I open the door, get questioned. If I refuse to answer or talk. Then the spidey sense of the officers start to formulate a way to legally enter. Plain view comes into play (say I left a gun mag on the coffee table). Now police can enter and ferret out a reason to search my house. And all because they are at the wrong address. And you expect me to file it under stuff happens. Sorry. The err of caution should always go to the citizens rights. If I research hard, I can prove this wrong address crap happens way to often. Sorry. I understand mistakes happen. Part of that is paying for the mistake.
__________________
Civilian Date: 14 Century
1 : a specialist in Roman or modern civil law.
If you are not subject to the UCMJ, you are a Civilian. I don't care one bit what updated dictionaries say.
Dust Monkey is offline  
Old March 19, 2009, 08:17 PM   #62
OuTcAsT
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2006
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 1,212
Quote:
I wonder how long it took from the conclusion of these events until they checked the correct address and discovered it was a prank.
Today 06:49 PM

DING! DING! DING! You have just asked what may end up as the $2Million (minus legal fees) dollar question
__________________
WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood

Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska -
OuTcAsT is offline  
Old March 19, 2009, 09:43 PM   #63
Kmar40
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 668
Quote:
That'd be an interesting research project. It used to be the majority of the states had a statute indicating that a citizen not only had a right to resist an unlawful arrest, but a duty to do so.
Bill, I don't know what you are remembering. At common law that isn't the case. The ability to resist an arrest is a fairly recent creature and many states only allow the ability to resist unlawful force (ie the cop is illegally beating you or executing you) not just an arrest that someone deems unlawful. There is an ALR on the subject. I used it in part while doing the research about 7 years ago.
Kmar40 is offline  
Old March 19, 2009, 09:45 PM   #64
Kmar40
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 668
Quote:
"Comply on scene". So at 3AM, I am asleep. Loud banging on my apartment door. Someone yells police. I can't tell if they are real officers or not. I have no need for the police, I didn't call them. My rights are already violated.
Just wondering, what right would that be?

Do you believe knocking on your door is an illegal search or seizure?
Kmar40 is offline  
Old March 19, 2009, 09:46 PM   #65
Kmar40
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 668
Quote:
The call was a prank, made by some college kids ( This complex is right next to a state university ) Then the address was botched by the dispatcher, and finally wound up getting two guys in trouble for just being at home asleep.
Uh, no. Brandishing a firearm at police officers got two guys in trouble. End of story.
Kmar40 is offline  
Old March 19, 2009, 10:15 PM   #66
Dust Monkey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 24, 2007
Posts: 723
My right the be left alone,'to continue sleeping undisturbed. That right.

If the cops had gone to the CORRECT ADDRESS there would not have been a reason for the citizen to answer his door at 3AM with a gun in his hand for his protection (brandishing as you call it).

Either way the catalyst that set this entire Charlie Foxtrot in motion was cops at the wrong address.

Is is so abnormal for a person to answer his door at 3AM, with some form of protection? You would think professional police officers would understand that. Especially after finding out they were at the wrong place, the man with the gun at his side was a fellow LEO. But no. We have to have a couple of unprofessional chest thumpers (the kind that give good cops a bad name) trying to cover their arse and not giving a crap for a fellow police officer and war vet. That's below pathetic.
__________________
Civilian Date: 14 Century
1 : a specialist in Roman or modern civil law.
If you are not subject to the UCMJ, you are a Civilian. I don't care one bit what updated dictionaries say.
Dust Monkey is offline  
Old March 19, 2009, 10:36 PM   #67
Wildalaska
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2002
Location: In my own little weird world in Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 14,174
Quote:
My right the be left alone,'to continue sleeping undisturbed. That right.
You mean the cops have no right to knock on your door at 3am?

OK, put a sign up:

"Dear PoPo in order to preserve my rights, please do not knock on my door at 3am, even if there is a gas leak in the neighborhood, my garage is on fire, you found my kid drunk on the steps or the zombie hordes are a mere 50 yards away. I am self reliant American Patriot "

Right way:

KNOCK KNOCK KNOCK

*gurgle snuffle grab 45 shuffle*

Who'se there?

Police Sir, open up

*Look through spyhole, see cop*

OK, wait one

*put gun down in a concealed spot, open door*

Whats up guys, yadda yadda yadd.a...OK goodnight sir....


Wrong way

KNOCK KNOCK KNOCK

*gurgle snuffle grab 45 shuffle*

Who'se there?

Police Sir, open up

Screw you, I know my rights....etc

Cuffs

WildcopsareNOTTHEENEMYFORGODSAKEAlaska TM
Wildalaska is offline  
Old March 19, 2009, 10:53 PM   #68
OuTcAsT
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2006
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 1,212
Quote:
"Dear PoPo in order to preserve my rights, please do not knock on my door at 3am, even if there is a gas leak in the neighborhood, my garage is on fire, you found my kid drunk on the steps or the zombie hordes are a mere 50 yards away. I am self reliant American Patriot "
*LOL Giggle snerk*
__________________
WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood

Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska -
OuTcAsT is offline  
Old March 19, 2009, 11:06 PM   #69
Dust Monkey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 24, 2007
Posts: 723
That is a bunch of tripe and you know it. I and everyone else has a right to be left alone. Drunk kid, gas leak are legal reasons to me on someone property. That was not the case here. Yes the dispatch sent them to tie wrong place or the cops got confused. ONCE it was determined thatntjey were at the wrong address, all should have done an about face (unless a crime or evidence of a crime was in plain view).

You are just trying to stir the pot here. You and everyone else on this board know what I was saying. If you believe that post off yours, well I don't know what to think.

Pesonally, if I get a knock at 3AM and it's the cops, I will comply only as much as I have to, if it's the wrong address, you betcha it violates my rights, maybe not in your view, but it does in mine.

FWIW, the following is opinion only from an old school peace officer.
According to the info we have, if accurate, here is what should have happened, what I would have done:

Arrive at scene that desk sgt called in. Knock on door announce that I was a police officer and needed to speak with the head of the house. When the door opened and I saw a man with a firearm at his side, I would have drawn and instructed the man to place the firearm down and step back. I would have secured the immediate area, cuffed anyone present and then start questioning. Once I found out that it was the wrong address, I would have released all persons and apologized for the major screw up. NOT arrest someone on a chickencrap charge to cover up a mistake
__________________
Civilian Date: 14 Century
1 : a specialist in Roman or modern civil law.
If you are not subject to the UCMJ, you are a Civilian. I don't care one bit what updated dictionaries say.

Last edited by Dust Monkey; March 19, 2009 at 11:15 PM.
Dust Monkey is offline  
Old March 19, 2009, 11:15 PM   #70
Wildalaska
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2002
Location: In my own little weird world in Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 14,174
Quote:
WA. That is a bunch of tripe and you known...You and everyone else on this board know what I was saying.
Really...I think your post was clear. You have the right not to be disturbed by the cops at 3am. Are you now saying that there are legitmate reasons for the PoPo to come calling in the middle of the night? If so, see rule 2 below

Quote:
According to the info we have, if accurate, here is what should have happened, what I would have done:
Monday morning quarterbacking

Rule 1Hear knock at the door at 3am, OK to grab gun

I Rule2 f you see cops at the door, put the gun down.

WildhowhardisthatandmayisuggestasmalltablewithadrawerneedthefrontdoorAlaska TM
Wildalaska is offline  
Old March 19, 2009, 11:30 PM   #71
Dust Monkey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 24, 2007
Posts: 723
Your right and wrong. How do you know that the folks at your door are cops? In an apartment complex you might not be able to see a squad car. I have my old military badge, it's pretty easy to impersonate a cop. Rember the teen in chicago? My point is, and always has, is yes, there are legal reasons for cops to be on your property. No question. But once said cops find out they are at the wrong place, certain things should kick in and happen. In this incident that did not happen.

Dont twist my words and try to paint me as a cop hater or thinking cops are the enemy. I support cops, I just demand that cops take responsibility for the mistakes they make. Just like everyone else has to.
__________________
Civilian Date: 14 Century
1 : a specialist in Roman or modern civil law.
If you are not subject to the UCMJ, you are a Civilian. I don't care one bit what updated dictionaries say.
Dust Monkey is offline  
Old March 19, 2009, 11:46 PM   #72
Wagonman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 11, 2008
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 987
I totally disagree----- your rights have not been violated by the Cop's temerity to knock on your door in error while investigating a crime. All this about face nonsense is silly and symptomatic of an attitude of hostility toward police. I don't understand your viewpoint at all. You are bleeding before you are shot. Wild and I have given you a real world view of a situation and you continue to ignore and alter our observations.

Nobody is advocating Gestapo activities by Police. But, for goodness sake stipulate the Police are allowed to constitutionally knock on your door.
Wagonman is offline  
Old March 19, 2009, 11:53 PM   #73
Dust Monkey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 24, 2007
Posts: 723
I believe I did. Post #69

No claiming Gestapo tactics. Just cops in this incident scewing the pooch and trying to save face by charging and ruining a young mans military service


But hey. It's ok. Don't mind me or my opinion. Since it gets in the way of your view.
__________________
Civilian Date: 14 Century
1 : a specialist in Roman or modern civil law.
If you are not subject to the UCMJ, you are a Civilian. I don't care one bit what updated dictionaries say.
Dust Monkey is offline  
Old March 20, 2009, 01:11 AM   #74
Wagonman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 11, 2008
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 987
What opinion are you refering to?

AGAIN, THERE IS NOTHING TO BE GAINED BY FIGHTING WITH THE POLICE ON THE SCENE! COMPLY, AND CONTACT YOUR ATTORNEY AND HE WILL DETERMINE YOUR DAMAGES.

If this guy had complied without the attitude this mountain would be the molehill it should be.

Quote:
Comply on scene". So at 3AM, I am asleep. Loud banging on my apartment door. Someone yells police. I can't tell if they are real officers or not. I have no need for the police, I didn't call them. My rights are already violated. I either open the door (yes a gun would be in my hand) or call the PD to confirm ( if the cops have the patience to wait and allow me to do that.) Once confirmed. I open the door, get questioned. If I refuse to answer or talk. Then the spidey sense of the officers start to formulate a way to legally enter. Plain view comes into play (say I left a gun mag on the coffee table). Now police can enter and ferret out a reason to search my house. And all because they are at the wrong address. And you expect me to file it under stuff happens. Sorry. The err of caution should always go to the citizens rights. If I research hard, I can prove this wrong address crap happens way to often. Sorry. I understand mistakes happen. Part of that is paying for the mistake
There is always the not refusing to talk to the Police for a couple minutes and the Police realizing their error and saying "Sorry for the intrusion have a good evening" play.



Quote:
Once I found out that it was the wrong address, I would have released all persons and apologized for the major screw up. NOT arrest someone on a chickencrap charge to cover up a mistake
Where is the major screwup. That is the problem with your view.

They knocked on the wrong door, so what?

If the offender hadn't escalated the situation it would have been a minor annoyance.

Last edited by Wagonman; March 20, 2009 at 01:18 AM.
Wagonman is offline  
Old March 20, 2009, 10:18 AM   #75
ilbob
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 29, 2006
Location: Northern Illinois
Posts: 515
Quote:
Plain view comes into play (say I left a gun mag on the coffee table).
The coffee table is in plain view too. Since neither is generally illegal to possess, absent some other circumstance, the presence of either is not grounds for any kind of an involuntary entry or search by police.

Personally I think it was dumb to open the door at all, gun or not. I am not opening my door at 3 am for anyone unless I called for someone to come, or can otherwise verify just who they are.
__________________
bob

Disclaimers: I am not a lawyer, cop, soldier, gunsmith, politician, plumber, electrician, or a professional practitioner of many of the other things I comment on in this forum.
ilbob is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:16 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.15131 seconds with 7 queries