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Old February 26, 2009, 01:57 PM   #51
USAFNoDak
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Vanya Posted:

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Ya don't need statements. He's voted against every iteration of the AWB. See the link here.

He's from Nevada, fergoshsakes.
I stand corrected. Maybe Dingy Harry will have a "come to Jesus" meeting with Obama and Holder and tell them to "stifle this nonsense". Let's hope so. I apologize to any gun owners from Nevada who support Harry Reid for my inaccurate assumption above.
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Old February 26, 2009, 01:58 PM   #52
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Attention corrupt dealers in the great southwest.....they know who you are, watch indictments come left and right
Yeah, we've got lots of class 3 dealers doing a brisk trade in new full auto weaponry and grenades down here...

AZRedhawkdidyoureadthedescriptionofthegunbattles?thisisZetasandexMexicanmilitarydoingthefightingwiththeirowngear44
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Old February 26, 2009, 02:03 PM   #53
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at least fox is giving the other side a far say..

http://foxforum.blogs.foxnews.com/20...tt_holder_gun/


February 26th, 2009 1:11 PM Eastern
A New Assault Weapons Ban Will Not Reduce Crime In This Country

By John R. Lott, Jr.
Author, “Freedomnomics“/Senior Research Scientist, University of Maryland

It is pretty hard to seriously argue that a new so-called “assault weapons” ban would reduce crime in the United States. Even research done for the Clinton Administration couldn’t find that the federal assault weapons ban reduced crime.

There are no academic studies by economists or criminologist that find the original federal assault weapons ban reduced murder or violent crime generally. There is no evidence that the state assault weapons bans reduced murder or violent crime rates –and there’s even some evidence that they may have caused murder to actually rise slightly. Since the federal ban expired in September 2004, murder –and overall violent crime rates– have remained virtually unchanged.

If Holder thinks that it is so easy to control drug gangs’ access to guns, one way to show it is by proving that he can stop drug gangs’ access to drugs.

In fact, when the assault weapons ban went off into the sunset in September 2004 there was no explosion of murder and bloodshed as gun control advocates feared. Immediately after the law expired murder rates fell and they fell more in the states without state assault weapon bans than the states with them.

But yesterday, Attorney General Eric Holder offered a new justification: “I think that will have a positive impact in Mexico, at a minimum.”

Mexico does have a horrible drug gang problem. Despite Mexico’s strenuous efforts, they haven’t been able to stop the flow of drugs into their country on their way to the United States.

The problem is that even if all our guns disappeared in the United States, there is no more reason to expect the flow of guns to Mexico to stop than there is to believe that we can stop the flow of drugs.

The drugs that these gangs sell are extremely valuable. They want to protect these drugs not only from the Mexican government but also from other gangs. Just as these gangs have a huge incentive to smuggle in guns, they have a huge incentive to smuggle in the guns used to protect them.

Even island nations — such as Ireland, Jamaica, and the UK — that can’t remotely begin to blame their crime problems on the United States have seen large increases in murder rates after gun bans at least in part because of increased drug gang violence.

If Holder thinks that it is so easy to control drug gangs’ access to guns, one way to show it is by proving that he can stop drug gangs’ access to drugs. No one should hold their breath for him to accomplish that task.

John Lott is the author of Freedomnomics and a senior research scientist at the University of Maryland. Click here for an archive of Mr. Lott’s previous FOXNews.com columns.
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Old February 26, 2009, 02:09 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeIrwin
I don't recall our Constitution being written in a manner conducive to helping a foreign nation control its criminal elements when, in fact, they have never been able to do so.
But it's not not written to say that, either! Durr! Wait, what?

It's an interesting justification that they might be invoking to circumvent the domestic constraints on their power. Perhaps a shared international policy, treaty or [tinfoil hat] new continental order would make gun bans more reasonable. While the supremacy clause has been interpreted in a couple court cases to preclude treaties eroding constitutional protections, it could still be an attempt to hide the ball and come up with new justifications. It's not impossible to thwart precedent with a couple new tricks and aggressive wordsmithing.

A long shot, for sure. But I can't see why else they would harp on this, as I have trouble believing it's really an issue that deserves any airtime in terms of its scale in comparison to all the crime in Mexico, and in view of our pressind domestic issues.
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Old February 26, 2009, 02:10 PM   #55
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Yeah, we've got lots of class 3 dealers doing a brisk trade in new full auto weaponry and grenades down here..
Come on Az, you know dang well there are a bunch of corrupt dealers feeding this crap

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Old February 26, 2009, 02:39 PM   #56
vranasaurus
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A few questions for anyone that buys this Mexico nonsense:

Why would Mexican Cartels settle for semiautomatic weapons when they can easily get the non-nuetered versions?

Why doesn't Mexico enforce their own gun laws? If those laws worked wouldn't it stand to reason that these gangs wouldn't have weapons?

Why doesn't Mexico stop the flow of drugs and illegal immigrants from coming across our borders? If they expect us to stop guns shouldn't we expect them to reciprocate in some way?

If cartels can smuggle drugs, wouldn't they also be able to smuggle guns?
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Old February 26, 2009, 02:52 PM   #57
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Come on Az, you know dang well there are a bunch of corrupt dealers feeding this crap
Yep, and one of them just down the road from me about 3 miles got shut down a couple months ago.

But he still wasn't selling the full auto rifles or the grenades. Maybe some AR's, SKS's, AK's and handguns, but that's it.

I don't see that there's a lot of reason to get anyone's knickers in a twist over our domestic weapons supplies and their relation to Mexican drug wars until Mexico can control its own military-apportioned arms supply. Considering the heavy recruiting that the Sinaloa/Gulf/Zeta groups do with current Mexican military and the high level of corruption or defection, our guns are the least of their problems.

Mexico, control your own guns before you start pointing fingers at us.

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Old February 26, 2009, 02:55 PM   #58
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If you are not an NRA member, join. Join today to send the Congress a solid message. I don't care what you think of the NRA. Hold your nose, if you have to, but become a member.
This is some of the best advice I've seen on here ever. I'm already a member, but now is a great time to donate a few extra bucks to the cause.
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Old February 26, 2009, 02:56 PM   #59
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Why would Mexican Cartels settle for semiautomatic weapons when they can easily get the non-nuetered versions?
Ar15 plus machine shop equals M16 in 20 minutes. Same with AK

Quote:
Why doesn't Mexico enforce their own gun laws? If those laws worked wouldn't it stand to reason that these gangs wouldn't have weapons?
Because they are corrupt

Quote:
Why doesn't Mexico stop the flow of drugs and illegal immigrants from coming across our borders? If they expect us to stop guns shouldn't we expect them to reciprocate in some way?
Becasue they are corrupt

Quote:
If cartels can smuggle drugs, wouldn't they also be able to smuggle guns?
They do. They straw man guns from dealers in the US. They buy them at gun shows in the US.

Let go of the gunwoobie. Crritical thinkers KNOW there is a problem with corrupt FFLs down there feeding this trade. So do the Feds. We may differ on the solutions, but lets not pretend the problem exists.

I could solve a good deal of the problem without even changing the law

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Old February 26, 2009, 02:59 PM   #60
Wildalaska
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Mexico, control your own guns before you start pointing fingers at us.
You know, I could care less what goes on down there. But if in any fashion we are contributing to the problem (and it becomes a problem for uswhen it spills over to the US), then we need to stop it.

No man is an island, etc.....

Quote:
Yep, and one of them just down the road from me about 3 miles got shut down a couple months ago.
Good. Lock him up

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Old February 26, 2009, 03:09 PM   #61
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Pelosi says lay off on guns FOR NOW...(The people have been bending over long enough and need a chance to heal before the next round of socialism and Federal government control of our lives).
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Old February 26, 2009, 03:13 PM   #62
Bartholomew Roberts
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Ar15 plus machine shop equals M16 in 20 minutes.
You know, I see antis make that same argument but I've yet to see the machine shop that can put metal back onto a bolt carrier, hammer, sear, trigger and disconnector. I guess they could always machine their own M16 parts and add them to an AR15; but that is certainly not a 20 minute job and any machine shop sophisticated enough to do it will have no problem producing automatic weapons from scratch.

The government is already sharing NICS data with the Mexicans and has been for several years now. We already have the laws in place to stop this, all we need to do is enforce those laws. We hardly need new ones.
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Old February 26, 2009, 03:22 PM   #63
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Let go of the gunwoobie. Crritical thinkers KNOW there is a problem with corrupt FFLs down there feeding this trade. So do the Feds. We may differ on the solutions, but lets not pretend the problem exists.

I could solve a good deal of the problem without even changing the law
But let's try to at least admit what the REAL problem is.
Hint: It isn't the availability of guns, legal or illegal.
It's the illegal drug business, fueled by huge profits, created by decades of prohibition and the "war on drugs."
As long as this huge illegal profit incentive exists, the problem will persist.

Oh, and the other problem, the porous border and the hordes of illegal mexicans crossing it.
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Old February 26, 2009, 03:30 PM   #64
vranasaurus
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WildAlaska,

The problem is all of this activity is already illegal. Banning a bunch of semi-auto rifles in the US will do nothing to slow the flow of arms into the hands of the cartels.

This has nothing to do with the gunwoobie. I did not say anything about corrupt dealers as there are certainly corrupt dealers selling to straw men but that is already illegal. You can't make it anymore illegal.

The problem I and many others have is the AG insinuating that an AWB will stop the flow of weapons into Mexico. Since the activity they are trying to stop is already illegal is there really a need for more laws. You said yourself that the laws for combating this are already on the books.

As you mentioned Mexico is corrupt and needs to fix its own house before they demand others do it for them. We should certainly demand an end to the corruption. Corrupt government officials looking the other way can certainly make it very easy to smuggle arms.
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Old February 26, 2009, 03:32 PM   #65
Wildalaska
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As long as this huge illegal profit incentive exists, the problem will persist.

Oh, and the other problem, the porous border and the hordes of illegal mexicans crossing it.
There isnt the political will to end Prohibition. The porous border causes political strife.

Does anyone really object to flooding the SW states with FFL auditors? Hows about smiling ATF agents in a booth at every gun show?

presence. The good guys wont be bothered, the bad guys will either stop or get caught.

But its easier to screech for a ban, or screech against enforcing laws.

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Old February 26, 2009, 03:35 PM   #66
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What is most interesting to me is that you can no linger find the story on ABCNews.com unless you have the exact link directly to the article. I searched the site every way I could think of (author, article headline, quotes from the story), but it was missing. Is this now a coverup for something that has embarassed the Obama administration? I have emailed ABCNEWS and asked why I can't find the article.
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Old February 26, 2009, 03:37 PM   #67
Wildalaska
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Quote:
WildAlaska,

The problem is all of this activity is already illegal. Banning a bunch of semi-auto rifles in the US will do nothing to slow the flow of arms into the hands of the cartels.

This has nothing to do with the gunwoobie. I did not say anything about corrupt dealers as there are certainly corrupt dealers selling to straw men but that is already illegal. You can't make it anymore illegal.

The problem I and many others have is the AG insinuating that an AWB will stop the flow of weapons into Mexico. Since the activity they are trying to stop is already illegal is there really a need for more laws. You said yourself that the laws for combating this are already on the books.

As you mentioned Mexico is corrupt and needs to fix its own house before they demand others do it for them. We should certainly demand an end to the corruption. Corrupt government officials looking the other way can certainly make it very easy to smuggle arms.
You arent paying attention to what I am saying.

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Old February 26, 2009, 03:44 PM   #68
vranasaurus
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I don't think you understand what I am saying.

A new AWB will not stem the flow of guns into Mexico. No matter what laws you pass in the US, guns will still get into Mexico.
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Old February 26, 2009, 03:48 PM   #69
Wildalaska
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A new AWB will not stem the flow of guns into Mexico. No matter what laws you pass in the US, guns will still get into Mexico.
Actually, thats not true. Eventually, drying up the supply will help.

But again, thats not the issue. Read again what I am saying.

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Old February 26, 2009, 03:55 PM   #70
vranasaurus
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Actually, thats not true. Eventually, drying up the supply will help.
This is only true if the cartels in Mexico can't get weapons anywhere other than the US.
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Old February 26, 2009, 04:02 PM   #71
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WA:

Introducing heavy-handed F-troop tactics into gun shows is not the answer, unless the question is "how can we further alienate Arizonans and the FedGov during a democratic administration?"

I'll tell ya right now... the vast majority of private transfers I've seen at Phx gunshows involve the presentation of driver's licenses and/or CCW permits. We aren't likely to take kindly to somebody attempting to forcibly intercede in a transaction that a casual observer can obviously discern as a conscientious transaction.

Several dozen ATF troops swooping down on gun shows? Bad idea. Recipe for confrontation.

Several dozen ATF troops augmenting BP at border checkpoints or flying surveillance for illicit southbound gun running traffic? Much more valuable. And doesn't the ATF have the highest per-capita of amateur pilots out of all federal law enforcement agencies? Sounds like a fantastic use of their resources.
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Old February 26, 2009, 04:10 PM   #72
Bartholomew Roberts
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Actually, thats not true. Eventually, drying up the supply will help.
Well, since a new AWB wouldn't do jack to dry up the supply even if it totally banned the manufacture of any new semi-automatic weapon, I'd say that his statement was totally true.
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Old February 26, 2009, 04:18 PM   #73
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Quote:
ftd:
What is most interesting to me is that you can no linger find the story on ABCNews.com unless you have the exact link directly to the article.
It's still there, just not on the main page.
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/
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Old February 26, 2009, 04:18 PM   #74
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Introducing heavy-handed F-troop tactics into gun shows is not the answer, unless the question is "how can we further alienate Arizonans and the FedGov during a democratic administration?"
Who is asking for heavy handed. Just a booth? Sort of like the cop on the corner.

I am more concerned about the dealers actually, since they screw things up for the rest of us.

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Old February 26, 2009, 04:28 PM   #75
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How bout we militarize the border? Every vehicle that crosses, in either direction gets searched for guns, drugs, and immigrants.
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