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Old February 21, 2009, 05:41 PM   #1
PhoenixConflagration
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Company policies

I just got a new job and, as I feared, buried in their employee handbook is a provision prohibiting firearms on their property "including private vehicles on property regardless of local or state law." This corporate attitude infuriates me. Not only do they disregard my right to protect myself at work, but with the vehicle clause, they want me to be a helpless victim on my way to and from work. I'm not just angry because I can't do what I want, I'm affronted that they presume to dictate the very circumstances of my ability to survive! Has anyone ever legally fought and defeated one of these horrendous policies? I wish that someone would sue one of these companies for wrongful death in the event that someone who is a CFL holder is killed on their way to or from work.
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Old February 21, 2009, 05:54 PM   #2
AK103K
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The companies I've worked for all had basically the same rule. Its a standard in most company manuals I've seen, and reads almost to the letter.

I've always just ignored their policy. If I screw up and its discovered, thats my fault. If they want to fire me, so be it.
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Old February 21, 2009, 06:37 PM   #3
dabigguns357
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you think you have it bad.I work for walmart and their policy is no firearms on company property.Wait it gets better,if you are an employee you may not carry a gun in any store.That means if i work for walmart A and i c/c in walmart B then i could still be terminated.
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Old February 21, 2009, 06:55 PM   #4
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We have discussed it before here: http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=312243.

Lots of opinions. I believe that any employer that makes you choose between safety and employment is offering you an immoral choice and you have the ethical right to disregard it if you so choose. However, if caught you might be fired or worse but that is an individual decision each must make for themselves.
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Old February 21, 2009, 07:06 PM   #5
troy_mclure
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the uscg says i cant carry to/at work.
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Old February 21, 2009, 07:25 PM   #6
Keltyke
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Quote:
buried in their employee handbook is a provision prohibiting firearms on their property "including private vehicles on property regardless of local or state law."
Under the concealed weapons (and general weapons) laws of most states, any company, store, or other privately owned entity has the complete and total right to restrict guns on their property. You have little-to-no chance of successfully challenging this in court. Is this right? No. Is it legal? Yes.

You have three choices:
1. Quit, and look for employment with a more gun-friendly company.
2. Stay, don't carry, and hope you don't need your weapon to or from work.
3. Carry against company policy: knowing full well that, if you're discovered, you WILL be terminated and possibly faced with jail or fines if the company decides to press charges. If they do, you may very well lose your CWP.

The choice is yours.

"dabigguns357", that's interesting, since Wal-Mart doesn't prohibit concealed weapons in SC, and I often open-carried into Wal-Marts in NC. How hypocritical they are!
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Old February 21, 2009, 10:16 PM   #7
cchardwick
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I was faced with the same dilema on my last job. I didn't do it, but was very tempted to get a small electronic locking gun safe bolted to my vehicle, either under the seat or under the dash. That way at least you could carry on the way to work and back and lock your gun in the vehicle during work. Something like this:



or this

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Old February 21, 2009, 10:24 PM   #8
Nnobby45
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Maybe we should, instead of getting all worked up, just realize that no company lawyers are going to recommend employees be allowed to carry, or have guns in their vehicles.

Your company is more interested in their own civil liability than your safety. It's a lot easier to deal with your family in the event of your death or injury than Bubba's.

I worked for 15 years with a gun in my personal vehicle at all times. Parking off company property was not an option. I didn't carry on the job, but my company was not about to disarm me on my own time.
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Old February 21, 2009, 11:04 PM   #9
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Quote:
Carry against company policy: knowing full well that, if you're discovered, you WILL be terminated and possibly faced with jail or fines if the company decides to press charges. If they do, you may very well lose your CWP.

lmao, and you are one of the guys that make this the #1 site on the internet for gun info?? Where the heck is WildAlaska? Unbelievable.
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Old February 21, 2009, 11:31 PM   #10
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You have every legal right to keep a gun in your car at work. Florida just passed a law last year that prevents companies from prohibiting legally owned/carried guns on company property. IF it were discovered and they terminated you THEY would be the ones answering to the judge. Lock your doors and seal your lips!
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Old February 22, 2009, 12:31 AM   #11
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+1

Concealed means that. Lock it in vehicle don't strap up in parking lot and continue carrying. Mumms the word
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Old February 22, 2009, 08:27 AM   #12
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Quote:
You have every legal right to keep a gun in your car at work. Florida just passed a law last year that prevents companies from prohibiting legally owned/carried guns on company property. IF it were discovered and they terminated you THEY would be the ones answering to the judge. Lock your doors and seal your lips!
What he said.

Florida law says that no company can prohibit employees from bringing a concealed weapon onto company property for the purpose of self defense while traveling to and from work. That law was passed within the last six months, I think.

It doesn't mean you can carry while working, but you can absolutely bring it to work and leave it in your car.
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Old February 22, 2009, 08:43 AM   #13
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This issue has been widely discussed on TFL. Disney made news and so did a new law in Florida that circumvented private property rights. While I believe people who can legally carry should have the right to have a gun to protect themselves on the way to and from work (and park off company property), the business owner should be allowed to set the rules once you are at work.
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Old February 22, 2009, 10:36 AM   #14
BillCA
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The 10th Circuit Court also upheld an Oklahoma law on this same subject.

Guns-in-vehicle law ruled valid
Quote:
The appeals court overturns a Tulsa judge's order on firearms at a job site.

By ROBERT BOCZKIEWICZ World Correspondent
Published: 2/19/2009 2:35 AM
Last Modified: 2/19/2009 2:47 AM

DENVER — Oklahoma's law requiring employers to allow workers to have guns in their locked vehicles at work is valid, an appeals court decided Wednesday.

The decision by the Denver-based court overturns a court order by a judge in Tulsa who in 2007 barred enforcement of the law.

A panel of the 10th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals decided 3-0 that U.S. District Judge Terrence Kern erred in concluding that the law is pre-empted by the federal Occupational Safety and Health Act.

The appellate judges said Kern's ruling "interferes with Oklahoma's police powers and essentially promulgates a court-made safety standard — a standard that OSHA (the Occupational Safety and Health Administration) has explicitly refrained from implementing on its own. Such action is beyond the province of federal courts."
What bothers me more is this whole attitude:
Quote:
their property "including private vehicles on property regardless of local or state law."
So, I state law reads "No employer shall ... " the company says it can still fire you even if state law prohibits it? Excuse me? Isn't this a declartory statement that the company will violate the law as it sees fit?
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Old February 22, 2009, 10:50 AM   #15
Tennessee Gentleman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allenomics
Disney made news and so did a new law in Florida that circumvented private property rights.
Perhaps a more germane story to this question is here: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=38726

and this quote is illuminating:
Quote:
"I hope those of you in the media will realize the incredible unfairness of a huge company telling its employees – in essence – they must agree to die for the company rather than use legal reasonable means to defend themselves," Rick Whitham, an Indianapolis attorney, told WND. He says he saw Pizza Hut's action as "clear discrimination against those who choose to lawfully exercise a legal, heavily regulated right."
Now, for those of you who jump in and say: "Just Quit!" I will tell you about my CCW class I took 5 years ago. Kathy Jackson also known as pax might want to tell me if I am wrong.

There were 15 of us in the class. Myself and two other males and 12 females. Every one of the females had been stalked/attacked/assaulted by their ex-husbands/boyfriends and all had Orders of Protection filed against said "men".
All were single mothers.

So you see, they couldn't "just quit" and even if they did unless they became LEOs they weren't safe ANYWHERE because angry/crazy ex-friend could show up at work and kill them. And don't think this is a really rare event either. I think this type of murder/assault happens a lot.

So, when I read quotes like this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by allenomics
the business owner should be allowed to set the rules once you are at work.
I say fine and good but if the business owner does not then assume responsibility for your safety and provide reasonable protection for your safety that is immoral.

Private property should not trump your life.
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Old February 22, 2009, 11:25 AM   #16
besafe2
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Like others have said. Lock it up & don't tell.
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Old February 22, 2009, 11:34 AM   #17
kalstrand
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If I remember correctly from my CCW class. The Oklahoma Self Defense Act provides additional liability to businesses who don't allow you to carry in the business in addition to the law cited above that requires them allow you keep your firearm in your vehicle. I will have to get my copy of the SDA and find the exact wording when I have time.
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Old February 22, 2009, 12:26 PM   #18
rlong5
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If you work in an office environment, there's a very good chance that the building and parking lot are leased, not owned by the company. If you're in a manufacturing environment, they probably own it. Commercial could be either way - although the bigger the business the higher probability that they own the building and parking lot.

It's a tough choice; you just have to decide what your priorities are and what price you're willing to pay to protect your first priority. In this economy, priority one may be to keep your job.
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Old February 22, 2009, 06:37 PM   #19
PhoenixConflagration
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My plan is very much to keep it in my car. They have no reason or right to be looking in my locked vehicle anyway. Now if I show up at six in the morning and get shot and killed in the parking lot on the way in, my wife has stated that she'll sue for wrongful death, buy the building, and burn it down

I understand that lawyers are thinking about the company's liability, but it seems to me that if an office does not have security personnel, then banning legal firearms then causes liability. I hate to sound like some talk radio host, but this pervasively liberal corporate culture is destructive to common $@$% sense.
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Old February 22, 2009, 09:10 PM   #20
Al Norris
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allenomics
While I believe people who can legally carry should have the right to have a gun to protect themselves on the way to and from work (and park off company property), the business owner should be allowed to set the rules once you are at work.
The business (not just the owner) is regulated by law. It has been this way ever since governments started regulating for the public health and safety. As such, all health and safety regulations infringe upon those property rights.

If the State (or local government) determines that for the safety of all employees, everywhere (i.e. the general public), can carry in their vehicles, even when parked on company property, there's not much a business can do. Such a law is not specific to any single company but is general public policy. Well within the police powers of the State.

In this, your statement above couldn't be more wrong, if you had tried.
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Old February 23, 2009, 01:04 AM   #21
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TN Gentleman,

You are right on target, and that's an excellent, gut-impact argument for the situation.

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Old February 23, 2009, 01:48 AM   #22
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Where I work employees are not to have firearms, knives, non-company computers, non-company cameras and alot of other stuff. They have a company skeet team and when they have shoots they can bring their equipment with them but we (security) get an email from the plant manager stating who has it, what it is (with serial numbers), what vehicle it's in (with license plate number) and where it's parked. Plus all vehicles on company property (inside the maingate and outside parking lots) are subject to search.
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Last edited by hoytinak; February 23, 2009 at 02:13 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old February 23, 2009, 06:24 AM   #23
Huey Long
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Quote:
Disney made news and so did a new law in Florida that circumvented private property rights.
Where in the constitution does it say that corporations have rights?
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Old February 23, 2009, 10:33 AM   #24
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TNG +1. I have already expressed my opinion that employers should have no rights over employees except in matter that specifically and directly affect their job performance.

I see no moral grounds for being slaves to whims of your employer. Such mentalities of employer absolutism were the justification for sexism, racism and other discriminatory practices.
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Old February 23, 2009, 12:15 PM   #25
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Your solution may be at hand. I just got this in an e-mail from the NRA-ILA.

Quote:
This week, a three-judge panel of the U.S. Tenth Circuit Court of Appeals ruled unanimously in support of an Oklahoma law allowing employees to store legally owned firearms in locked, private motor vehicles while parked in employer parking lots. This decision upholds NRA-backed legislation passed in 2004.

"This is a victory for the millions of American workers who have been denied the right to protect themselves while commuting between their homes and their workplace," said NRA Executive Vice President Wayne LaPierre. "Their effort to overturn the law was aimed at skirting the will of the American people, and the intent of legislatures across this country while eviscerating Right-to-Carry laws. This ruling is a slap at the corporate elitists who have no regard for the constitutional rights of law abiding American workers."
Link to NRA-ILA's onsite article.

The court's decision. (Note: .pdf format. Adobe reader required.)
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