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Old February 21, 2009, 06:02 PM   #1
Firepower!
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800-1000 yards: 270 or 30-06?

The heading says it all.

Please do not suggest any other caliber.
Kindly give your thoughts on 270 and 30-06 for 800-1000 yards target practice.

I have choice between Winchester feather weight 270 with leupold scope or 30-06 with zeiss conquest.

Cost of ammo and recoil is not a consideration.
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Old February 21, 2009, 06:03 PM   #2
Jim Watson
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.30-06
Much better selection of ammunition and/or high ballistic coefficient bullets.
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Old February 21, 2009, 06:06 PM   #3
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Quote:
.30-06
Much better selection of ammunition and/or high ballistic coefficient bullets.
Without a doubt the .30-06.
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Old February 21, 2009, 06:35 PM   #4
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Quote:
I have choice between Winchester feather weight 270 with leupold scope or 30-06 with zeiss conquest.
No feather weight rifle will ever be ideal for those kind of ranges.
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Old February 21, 2009, 06:40 PM   #5
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vonfireball....would you please care to elaborate? Thanks
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Old February 21, 2009, 06:46 PM   #6
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30-06 at those ranges. The featherweight would work at those ranges but would not be ideal. Generally a rifle set up for long range work has a longer heavier barrel and a heavy stock to make it easier to hold steady at those ranges.

The featherweight rifles sacrafice weight to be easier for carrying while hunting.
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Old February 21, 2009, 06:52 PM   #7
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how does 270 do on range/energy retaining, waht other cartridges does it perform like? there seems to be a lot of 270s around here.
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Old February 21, 2009, 06:56 PM   #8
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Quote:
vonfireball....would you please care to elaborate? Thanks
You get a lot more barrel whip with the featherweight/thin hunting barrels. You said you wanted to shoot targets at great range. The heavier guns are more stable off a bench rest as well.

Those kind of ranges are difficult enough to be good in with all the right equipment let alone a featherweight rifle at 1k. I can touch holes at 100 yards and have average accuracy to maybe 300 or so with a heavy barreled savage and such (my rifle skills aren't the best), but 1,000 yards, even for sharpshooters can be elusive. I can only wish I had that kind of skill.

For that kind of work, the best equipment would be something well bedded in it's stock (probably a heavier target style or "sniper" style stock), with a heavy barrel (free floated) and a nice, light, crisp trigger. Don't forget at least decent quality optics. Anything lacking in your setup will amplify itself at those ranges to a degree which will cause you great frustration.

Like I said, I'm no sharpshooter, but for that application I think a featherweight gun would be working in reverse.
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Old February 21, 2009, 07:09 PM   #9
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The selection of .270 bullets isn't too good, at least they aren't for target/match type shooting.

The .30-06 shoots the same as the .308 which is widely known and therefore I'd choose a .30-06.

If it was a 7mm vs a .30 caliber I'd choose the 7mm which is closer to a .270 but you only want to know between 270 or .30-06 so I am going to say .30-06.

A featherweight barrel is not "ideal" for long range shooting... but the bullets are being pushed at the same speed and will have the same range granted they both have the same length. I think you'd be good for a few consecutive shots before the barrel becomes too warm and starts to vibrate differently.
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Old February 21, 2009, 07:18 PM   #10
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I would have guessed that the .270 would shoot flatter but apparently not. Here's a link to the Remington site.

http://www.remington.com/products/am...RC3006A*L30062

150 gr. is the only common weight between .270 and .30-06 in the Remington stable of factory loaded ammo. The ballistic coefficient of every .30-06 bullet is better than the .270 leading to flatter shooting and more retained power for the .30-06 across the board. YMMV with different weight bullets but for 150 gr. Remington bullets the .30-06 is the winner.
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Old February 21, 2009, 07:33 PM   #11
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Using 130 grain 270 ammo vs 150 grain 30-06 ammo the 270 will shoot slightly flatter at most hunting ranges. For the really long ranges the heavier 165 and 180 grain 30-06 ammo will shoot flatter and be faster because they are more aerodynamic.

Not a perfect analogy but think of a tennis ball off a racket vs a baseball off a bat. The lighter tennis ball is faster for a while until it looses momentum. The baseball starts off slower but will carry farther because of its greater weight. I realize the baseball is more aerodynamic but it is the best analogy I could come up with.
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Old February 21, 2009, 07:35 PM   #12
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.30-06 would be the better choice without a doubt. All of the above statements say it all. '

Especially better bullet selection.
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Old February 21, 2009, 07:38 PM   #13
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Lets back up a minute: If you are gonna compair the two, then you need to use the same bullet. For this case lets say the 150 grn bullet.

Bullet

30-06 @2800 fps MV will have a 1000 velocity of 1239
270 @2800 fps MV will have a 1000 velocity of 1563

Total drop of the 30-06 is 403.4
total drop of the 270 is 333.2

Even if you use the 180 grn 30 cal bullet the remaining velocity is 1520 fps and a drop of 340.2 inches, with the same 2800 MV

High School Phyics tells us, that if two objects of the same weight, the longer thinner object is gonna meet less wind resistance then the one that is shorter, with more frontal surface to contact the wind.

The differance between the two is of choice, depending on what you are gonna do with it. The 308 bullets in the '06 had more to choice in the target bullet field then the 270. But with the introduction of the 6.8 thats changing.

Although the OP wanted to discount weight and recoil, that IS THE DIFFERACNE BETWEEN THE TWO. All things being equal the 270 would be a better choice. But all things are not equal. You can shoot heavier bullets in the '06, but you are going to suffer in the recoil department and more trijectory.

Regardless, the 270 is a flatter shooting cart. then the 30-06.
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Old February 21, 2009, 07:43 PM   #14
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The reputation of the .270 was made on the 130 grain bullet. If you go with the 150 grain bullet in the .270, you end up with more bullet drop (a more curved trajectory) at longer ranges. The 30-06 has a long history of success at 1000 yard matches. Stick with the '06. Target bullets in 30 caliber have set the standard, like the 155 grain Sierra Palma bullets.
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Old February 21, 2009, 07:56 PM   #15
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VonFireball

Quote:
vonfireball....would you please care to elaborate? Thanks

You get a lot more barrel whip with the featherweight/thin hunting barrels. You said you wanted to shoot targets at great range. The heavier guns are more stable off a bench rest as well.

Those kind of ranges are difficult enough to be good in with all the right equipment let alone a featherweight rifle at 1k. I can touch holes at 100 yards and have average accuracy to maybe 300 or so with a heavy barreled savage and such (my rifle skills aren't the best), but 1,000 yards, even for sharpshooters can be elusive. I can only wish I had that kind of skill.

For that kind of work, the best equipment would be something well bedded in it's stock (probably a heavier target style or "sniper" style stock), with a heavy barrel (free floated) and a nice, light, crisp trigger. Don't forget at least decent quality optics. Anything lacking in your setup will amplify itself at those ranges to a degree which will cause you great frustration.

Like I said, I'm no sharpshooter, but for that application I think a featherweight gun would be working in reverse
Sorry it dosnt work that way in reality. Featherwight is designed to be a light hunting rifle. Hunting rifles seldom are fired more then, lets say 5 rounds at a time. Past that they tend to heat up, CHANGING THE BARREL WHIP. Barrel whip per se, is not a deterant to accuracy IF ITS CONSTANT. Thats the differance betwee the heavier and lighter barrels.

BUT, the lighter featherweigh barrels ARE capable of shooting long range taking in account the limited of rounds needed to cause it to heat up, changing the whip.

One of the ranges I shoot High Power & 1000 Yard matches, has gongs out to 1400 yards. I usually go to those ranges a couple days early to play on the gongs. I have a couple feather weight winchesters , (257 & 270) I use for hunting. I shoot these rifles to confirm the ballistic tables I've put together for my hunting ammo. Until they get hot, THEY DO SHOOT AND SHOOT ACCURATLY AT 1000 YARDS.

Are they used in Matchs?? NO of course not, a 1000 yard match often consist of 60 rounds plus sighters. But they are target rifles and are more then capable of extremely good accuracy for 5 rounds or so. If one needs to shoot more then 5 rounds in a hunting situation, he's in the wrong game. I'll also add there is no eartly reason to hunt at 1000 yards. But a 1000 yard range is a good place to test your hunting rifle.
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Old February 21, 2009, 09:52 PM   #16
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Agree with Kraig. Using the same weight and velocities, the .270 will rule the 06 but, you must also use the same bullet design. A 150 grain flat base round nose out of a .270 might not out shoot a 150 grain spitzer boat tail or a boat tail hollow point from an 06 as these will have different ballistic coefficients (I'm not going to pull out charts to verify this but you may if you desire). BC does favor the narrower bullet at equal weight but the overall design and aerodynamics must be considered as well. It is very difficult to compare different calibers this way because you really need to do a bunch of chart work to make sure you capture the "apples and oranges" issues.

Rifles that shoot sub MOA at 100 yards will shoot sub MOA at 1000 yards if the cartridge is appropriate (not counting wind here). Thin and wispy is a heat management issue like Kraig said to ensure consistent muzzle exit in the vibration cycle. I have a 6 pound Rem 700 Stainless composite .270 that shoots .4 MOA with hand loads of 150 Nosler Partition near max pressure. Nobody can say this rifle is not capable of stellar 1000 yard performance. The rifle is technically capable of 4 inch groups at 1000 however; it would require a long period of time between shots to allow the barrel to cool. I prize it for superb 1st round accuracy and its compact size and light weight. My rifle is pure, out-of-the-box stock with a 3X9 Leupold VXIII. No bedding, nada. Just careful hand load preparation and good shooting. I've cleanly taken a 400 yard, 1-shot kill on mule deer with this.

Last edited by Jekyll; February 21, 2009 at 10:06 PM.
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Old February 21, 2009, 10:21 PM   #17
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OK, after spending about an hour researching ballistic calculators I conceed the 270 is capable of shooting flatter than the 30-06, but I cannot find a way to do it with both using 150 grain bullets.

The 2800 fps kraigwy lists for the 30-06 is a very light loading. Most start at 2900 and go up to 3100fps with 150 grain bullets. This translates into 313" of drop at 1000 yards with a 100 yard zero.

To beat that a 270 with a 130 grain bullet @3200 fps would drop 284" at 1000 yards.

The best 270 with 150 grain bullets I can find would drop around 330" at 1000 yards.

The best 165 and 180 grain 30-06 loads I could find were not as good as the 150 which surprises me because I thought that the longer, heavier bullets would hold up better at long range.

I'm sure with hot handloading and bullets with different BC's than I found the numbers would change slightly, but in reality there is not much difference between the best loads in either. But the fact is, I was wrong. The 270 will shoot flatter at 1000 yards.
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Old February 21, 2009, 10:43 PM   #18
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G'day. It has taken me a little while to figure out how to post these comparisons. The range is 1200 yards @ 100 yard increments. I have chosen max load for the comparisons, with boat tail bullets.

30-06 Springfield
Primer: Federal 210 Test Firearm: Savage Model 116
Case: Federal BBL Length: 26"
Twist: 1 x 10" Trim-to Length: 2.485"
Bullets:
#2210 .30 Caliber/7.62mm (.308) 190 gr. HPBT Match OAL 3.305, IMR-4350 max load 53.1gr @2700 f/s.


#2240 .30 Caliber/7.62mm (.308) 220 gr. HPBT Match OAL 3.300, IMR-4350 max load 52.5gr @ 2500 f/s.



270 Winchester
Primer: Win WLR Test Firearm: Savage 12VSS
Case: Winchester BBL Length: 26"
Twist: 1x10" Trim-to Length: 2.530"
Bullets:
#1820 .270 Caliber (.277) 130 gr. SBT OAL 3.300 IMR-4350 max load 55.0gr @ 3100 f/s

#1840 .270 Caliber (.277) 150 gr. SBT OAL 3.315 IMR-4350 max load 52.4 gr @ 2900 f/s



It might not be the best way of putting up the comparisons, but hay I got something.
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Old February 21, 2009, 10:50 PM   #19
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G'day several more posts went in while doing mine. As you can see the .270 does shoot flatter, but look at the wind drift.
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Old February 21, 2009, 10:55 PM   #20
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i have both but prefer the .06... howa 1500 w/thumhole stock
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Old February 21, 2009, 11:49 PM   #21
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And the winner is ???????????????????????
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Old February 22, 2009, 12:21 AM   #22
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I used to like to shoot 1K yds. and I still collect the rifles. I have a number in 30-06 and nobody ever mentions the .270 in 1K discussions. ?????

I also have some 1873 Trapdoors that were the bees knees for 1K back in the day.

Will the .270 make the haul? No doubt! Accurately? Tune yours up and we'll all find out.
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Old February 22, 2009, 01:48 AM   #23
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You don't mention the scopes. The Zeiss Conquest is a very good scope. You don't mention what type of Leupold it is. If the Zeiss is the better scope, get the .30-06.

BTW the Model 70 is a very good rifle and I'm sure you'll enjoy it.
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Old February 22, 2009, 09:34 AM   #24
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G'day. What is the twist rate of these rifles? That should influence projectile performance.(stability) Wind drift could be a be a bigger consideration than bullet drop. Bullet drop is constant at the designated range, but wind drift is harder to calculate.(compensate)
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Old February 22, 2009, 09:39 AM   #25
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For the most part, most factory rifles use the 1 in 10 for both the 270 & 30-06.
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