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Old June 29, 2009, 01:05 PM   #76
Dood_22
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Did this 209 converion significantly increase the amount of time that the breech remained hot and, if it did, did the manufacturer include a warning to that effect with the product?
The barrel will remain "hot" until all of the fuel is consumed or extinguished. Following safe loading procedures addresses this. Using patched balls just introduces another source of fuel. (the patch)

If anything, the hotter spark from a 209 would more quickly consume any fuel.
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Old June 30, 2009, 11:03 AM   #77
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Thanks for all the great posts and great ideas and good safety tips.
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Old July 1, 2009, 02:51 PM   #78
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adamobomb,how old are you?
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Old July 1, 2009, 03:14 PM   #79
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I ALWAYS remove the plug and do a wet swab followed by a dry swab. I do this for accuracy (to prevent crud ring buildup). As a secondary benefit, it assures me that there are no burning embers left in the barrel.

Using this simple procedure would have prevented the accident.
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Old July 3, 2009, 01:39 PM   #80
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Old July 3, 2009, 05:07 PM   #81
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what do you mean when you say the primer was not struck?
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Old July 4, 2009, 08:29 AM   #82
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what do you mean when you say the primer was not struck?
There was apparantly no primer in the breech. Detonation was caused by residual hot powder residue.
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Old July 4, 2009, 10:19 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JK Holman
... Thinking the ammunition expended, I pulled the trigger to confirm that the chamber was empty.
I don't think that's a recommended way to clear a weapon; look at the results.

Blaming the 209 conversion kit without having clear and precise knowledge of how it caused the inadvertent discharge is an example of a fallacy of argument called "post hoc, ergo propter hoc" in Latin. It means that just because event B happened after event A, it doesn't mean event A caused event B. Just because the tragic discharge happened after the 209 kit was installed, doesn't mean the kit caused the discharge. There are way too many other variables involved that have to be shown to be non-contributory in order to blame the conversion kit even a little.

In order to win a suit against the company that made the conversion kit, it seems to me you'd have to prove the kit was flawed in design, and then prove how that flaw caused the inadvertent discharge. You'd also have to prove somehow that the kit was installed correctly and that nothing was done in that process that led to damage which could have caused the discharge. Then you'd have to show that in loading the gun there were no mistakes made and no steps omitted which could cause or lead to such a discharge. Then, because the risks attendant to using BP are well known and well documented you'd have to show that the gun was handled in a way that an inadvertent discharge would not cause injury because doing so is commonly known to be required to prevent injury- and obviously that wasn't the situation here. In all of that lies the company's defense. If it's clear that all of those facts line up in a way that leads to the unavoidable conclusion that the company was at fault, then the suit is legit, as I see it. But any less conclusive lineup means the suit is frivolous and speculative, and as I see it, it lacks honor.

It seems to me that taking an objective look at all that's involved in cases such as this BEFORE one "lawyers up" - using critical thinking principles to sort out the facts, and taking responsibility for one's errors- is necessary to preserve one's character and honor. It also could save a lot of everyone's money on legal fees. There are lawyers all ready to take your case even when they know full well that it's a loser, because fees are earned whatever the outcome. And they also know that these sorts of cases are often settled in favor of the unprovable lawsuit when the defendant decides it's cheaper to pay up rather than pay for a defense- the case is settled in the terms of a cost-benefit ratio, not proof. Meanwhile, justice and integrity take a hike and it's all about dirty money for the plaintiff and his lawyer. I think ethics such as that stink in the extreme.
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Old July 5, 2009, 09:48 PM   #84
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Seems like very good info Uncle Billy!
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Old July 7, 2009, 09:53 PM   #85
.50FAN
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Pellet-replacements in BP flintlock pistol.

Can pryrodex pellets with regular 50 cal lead ball be used in a flintlock pistol? Probably a bit of BP would be needed to bring fire in from the frizzen, but otherwise, can it be done? SHOULD it be done??
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Old July 8, 2009, 01:19 AM   #86
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Pellet-replacements in BP flintlock pistol

This, a black powder topic, was left in General Discussion (not moved to the black powder forum) because it was safety related and we thought the exposure was a good idea.

If we are moving back to typical black powder discussions, then we are moving to the correct forum.
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Old July 8, 2009, 07:26 AM   #87
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Can pryrodex pellets with regular 50 cal lead ball be used in a flintlock pistol?
In a word, yes. Ignition will be unreliable at best, probably nonexistent the majority of the time. You must use a real black powder primer in the main charge if you're going to use any form of substitute black powder. Even with the bp primer the Pyrodex pellets will be problematic.

Quote:
SHOULD it be done??
No.
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Old July 8, 2009, 08:16 AM   #88
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Quote:
Can pryrodex pellets with regular 50 cal lead ball be used in a flintlock pistol? Probably a bit of BP would be needed to bring fire in from the frizzen, but otherwise, can it be done? SHOULD it be done??
What Mykeal said. If anything he was being optimistic. You'll need 4f in the pan and probably a few grains in the chamber before you load the pellets to get any ignition at all and then it will most likely still be problematic.
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Old July 10, 2009, 07:42 AM   #89
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Seems like a long time for a hot amber to be in there. Two friends of mine were getting done hunting they were putting there guns in the cases when one went off hitting the other hunter. The gun was not capped. They figure some sort of static set it off. The one that got hit sued the gun maker, and won.

I often wonder how someone could win a lawsuit like that, because the 2 guys were there alone, for all we know the gun was capped and cocked, and went off naturally- and a story could be cooked up to cover that fact, and the 2 guys could split the money proceeds from the lawsuit. That seems very dubious to me. Just my intuition, but yes it happens.

when I'm loading my c/b pistols, I often wonder, while pouring powder in, what if there's a hot ember in there ? It could light the powder stream pouring from the flask, and detonate the entire flask in your hand, while pouring powder in the cylinders.

that's why the cannons back in the day, swabbed the bore with a damp ramrod, to put out any embers first, before reloading
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Old July 10, 2009, 09:42 AM   #90
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when I'm loading my c/b pistols, I often wonder, while pouring powder in, what if there's a hot ember in there ? It could light the powder stream pouring from the flask, and detonate the entire flask in your hand, while pouring powder in the cylinders.
That's why you never load directly from the flask. You load from a powder measure. More dangerous with a rifle but still a possibility with a revolver.
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Old July 10, 2009, 12:45 PM   #91
owen
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While you may be correct in so far as the conversion kit doesn't directly ignite the propellant, the kit is marketed for use with those propellants and it appears that Adams attorney believes that the use of those propellants and a 409 kit increases the likelihood that some kind of ember is still present after the shooter has waited a reasonable time to reload.
When I have a question regarding physical science, I always consult a lawyer first!
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Old July 10, 2009, 01:47 PM   #92
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I don`t understand how the maker of the 209 conversion should be remotely at falt for this accident .
Unless the conversion maker said it was safe to load the gun with the conversion capped ...
With the walk down range before the gun was reloaded I would rule out burning embers ...
Was the 209 cap in place on the conversion when the rifle was being loaded ?????????
I have no Idea if this was the case or not ...if there was no cap in place on the conversion say so ...
and if there was no cap on the conversion ...why would you think the conversion may have caused the rifle to discharge while loading ???? explain how it could .
Glad to hear you were not harmed any worse than you were ...
I shoot timed muzzleloader events monthly ......never seen this happen in 35 years of muzzleloading .
Something else I don`t understand about this story ,.,.,why were you shooting patched round balls out of an inline muzzleloader rifle with 100 grs of powder ???.......I doubt you could keep the balls on paper at 50 yards .
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Old July 10, 2009, 06:06 PM   #93
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The problem with believing ANY trial attorney is that to them, there is absolutely no such thing as an injury for which somebody is not legally liable. In the case of a lightning strike they would try to sue God himself if they could figure out where to serve the papers.
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Old July 12, 2009, 11:09 PM   #94
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have you ever heard about fire pistons? You may have caused the fire piston effect ramming the ball rapidly.
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Old July 14, 2009, 06:16 PM   #95
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I am of the thought that when lawsuits are made that the losing party should pay all the legal fees. If the judge is on his toes and assigns the legal costs to the losing party, then a lot of this frivilous lawsuit business would quit.
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Old July 14, 2009, 10:16 PM   #96
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Old March 24, 2010, 09:19 PM   #97
andrewstorm
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ka boom

ive heard of people,shooting off there foot,but man your lucky,do u guys use 777 or blk pwder? never have i had this problen ,and i do a 5 sec reload,with powder or pellets.better late than never
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Old June 25, 2010, 08:16 PM   #98
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I failed to read every post so if this is a duplicate theory please excuse me.
I have a possible explanation of this phenomenon.
Lets assume that the only possible cause of ignition was an ember remaining in the area surrounding the breech plug internal tip.
A pellet is a solid object and will not readily assume the shape of its vessel. Loose powder will.
If that ember was near the threads of the breech plug, there may have been no contact with the pellet until additional force was applied to the ram rod to seat the ball. There by crushing the pellet which was then allowed to fill the area of the combustion chamber and only then contact the ember.
And the terrible result. I wish you a speedy recovery.

I know this is an old post but saftey does not go out of style!
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Old June 30, 2010, 02:16 PM   #99
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I'm late on this discussion and I have not read all the replies.
I have been muzzle loading for over 40 years and have been active with many clubs, including NMLRA.
I once saw an ml pistol, with real bp, go off spontaneously about ten minutes after loading and, maybe fifteen after the last shot was fired. Lingering embers can do that.
Did you swab the bore between shots? I'm guessing, no.
BTW blowing down the bore is prohibited at all NMLRA sanctioned matches as unsafe.
Some lubricants can burn and linger hot.
I always swab between shots, even when hunting where time is a factor. But, I consider safety a factor of greater importance.
This thread reminds me of a couple others where proponents of unsafe practices brag "It ain't blowed up, yet". I just love the "yet" part.
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Old June 30, 2010, 10:21 PM   #100
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Interesting thread. Please excuse my ignorance but from what I gather- we are talking about an inline muzzle loader with 209 ignition. Black powder pellets (I thought all the pellets were substitutes), and a patched round ball. I assume the 209 primer was not on the gun while loading. You waited about 5 minutes put down the pellets- no problem- then rammed the ball and as it was fully seated the gun went off with no 209 primer- is that correct?
Just some thoughts......
1. I think I may share an ASSUMPTION with others that an ember in the bore is a short lived event. How long can an ember stay hot? Does the fouling from black powder act like char cloth and hold an ember for a long time and would blowing down the barrel do any good? If this has happened ONLY with an inline- does the grease on the threads of the breech plug react with powder residue to form some type of gummy substance that holds an ember?
HOW TO PREVENT this type accident is the big concern. I usually swab between shots just to get rid of residue which makes it easier to load the next round. If I swab every time instead every 5th or 10th shot- I feel each shot gets the same treatment so the accuracy ought to be a bit better. In any event swabbing between shots may be a good safety practice.
2. On the thread grease idea- I don't clean the bore before the first shot but maybe getting any remnant of grease out of the bore is a good idea. I figured the first shot would just burn it up.
3. Is there a compressed air issue? In other words, if you are familiar with a fire piston, does the trapped air get compressed and "supercharge" the space remaining which invited an explosion?
Seems to me, it is well worth trying to get a definite answer on what caused this accident.
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