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Old February 19, 2009, 11:05 PM   #1
MeekAndMild
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Chimpanzee loads?

Could someone distill down the firearms related wisdom in the now closed chimpanzee attack thread to the point where they could tell us what would be a good minimum defensive weapon for police officers tasked with confronting them? Surely a 12 gauge and 00 buckshot would be nice but if an officer had his shotgun in the car would he need at minimum a .44 magnum, .45ACP, 10mm, .40 S&W, .357 or what? Will a solid bounce off a chimpanzee skull? Will a hollowpoint open prematurely before penetrating the chimpanzee facial bones? Would a frangible round be entirely useless?
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Old February 19, 2009, 11:13 PM   #2
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really, this is bound to get closed shortly....but here's my 2 cents: I really don't care about monkey loads...I have a better threat of a crazy a-hole HUMAN that wants to attack than some planet of the apes thing. So just gimme my heavy grain federal HST for my walther P99 .40
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Old February 19, 2009, 11:18 PM   #3
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While they are tough they are not like taking down a cape buffalo or a friggin rhino. Their skulls are not vastly different from ours. Any solid hit to the CNS would do it irrespective of the caliber. At close range, I'd still take a shotgun.

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Old February 19, 2009, 11:21 PM   #4
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Someone is bound to say .458 Lott or a .470 Nitro double. Them chimps are tough and mean.

Realistically, I think a shotgun with 00 and slugs would be perfect for responding to wild animals on the loose or attack. Lots of personal exotic pets aas well as those in zoos or rescue ranches. Plus the indigenous wild animals that might be encountered. Not too far fetched to respond to a cougar (one spotted in NE Portland), chimp, large dogs, tiger, black bear, deer, etc. A shotgun should be ideal for handling any of these animals.
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Old February 20, 2009, 12:54 AM   #5
guntotin_fool
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They weight between 100 and 200 pounds, like us, they are killed all the time in africa with bows and arrows, AK rounds and anything in between.

Thinking you need a stopping gun meant for 1500 pound or more dangerous game is fantasy. PURE FANTASY. I would be shocked to all end all if a single .357 defense load was not enough. Same with a proper 9mm, 40 or 45, they are not kevlar. just muscle and bone, it bleeds, we can kill it.
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Old February 20, 2009, 03:59 AM   #6
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Baboons are the primary target in Africa. Apes, including chimps, being protected.

From what I can find, baboons are considered Vermin, and, are big, very hard to kill, because they do NOT present an easy target, and, are very strong. Most of the guys polled in accuratereloading that shoot them use their plains game rifle, 30-06 up to 375, or whatever they have handy.

The problem with shooting such a target, just like a lion, is they are hard to get a really good shot at, and, they are hard to put down, regardless of caliber.

I've watched film of lions taking hits from .577 and .600 Nitro Express with softpoints, and, lacking a CNS hit, it does NOT put them down like it does a cape buffalo, or even elephant.

If you have a tack driving, long range rifle, like K Bell used to use, in a .270 up category, with CNS shot placement, they are going to go down, now.

The only reason to use a stopping rifle is at close range, it knocks stuff down, and, allows it to be finished with a second shot.

To be real, given that situation, a 9.3 X 62 or better would be my choice. Why? If while hunting your baboons, you get charged by an elephant, or cape buffalo, it's capable of doing in those two, in SD, with percise shot placement, and solids.
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Old February 20, 2009, 04:28 AM   #7
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Hmmm. With the refocus, I'd say this one belongs in hunting. Off we go ...

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Old February 20, 2009, 11:17 AM   #8
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Speed would be the concern and for that, you need a shotgun with no less than #4's. A more important concern is "WTH" are people doing with large wild animals in their homes? Heck, this lady even stated that she slept with this Chimp. Also note that on the 911 call, she kept asking or requesting that someone bring a gun. Wonder how she really felt about guns for protection, before this incident. Ever notice when self protection programs list what to do, they seldom if ever mention firearms?

We shoud always be aware of neighbors that keep not just wild animals but even certain breeds of dogs. In certain communities certain breeds are forbidden. Had a buddy who was the dog catcher in three of our counties and in one town, he had the authority to shoot any pit bull, on the spot. If it was in a fenced yard, he gave them two days to get rid of it. If it was in the streets, you do the math.


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Old February 20, 2009, 12:00 PM   #9
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Peter Capstick told about his battles with baboons in a multi-part article in American Hunter called "The Killer Baboons of Vlakfontein."

His assessment, IIRC, was that they were very smart, very cunning, very powerful, very dangerous, but no harder to kill than other creatures of a similar size.

He finally had to make a coordinated assault on the entire troop after they started killing people, and the primary gun he used was a Mac-10 machine pistol.
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Old February 20, 2009, 12:20 PM   #10
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Any mid. to full sized pistol cartridge should be enough to kill on of these animals. Since they're about the same size and shape of a human, the skulls arent any thicker and the best place to hit em is in the chest. The only difference that leaves you with something to think about is their behavior. Since animals have no natural fear of being shot they must be killed to be stopped. They will fight to the very last breath. When killing onw i would treat it the same way as if i were being attacked by someone i knew was on cocaine or a similar drug that increases pain tollerance and stamina.
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Old February 20, 2009, 12:29 PM   #11
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i for one cant believe that after all those years of owning this wild animal she had no plan if something like this were to happen, ie. a tranquilizer gun or something along those lines. i dont plain on setting my stove on fire but i have the means to put it out.
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Old February 20, 2009, 02:30 PM   #12
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In a similar attack, in 2005, a relative of the owners of the sanctuary where the attack took place used a .45 caliber revolver on the two attacking chimpanzees:
Mark Carruthers, who came running armed with a .45-caliber revolver. After struggling to find a clean shot, he opened fire on the younger primate. The shot had no apparent effect, and Carruthers raced back to his house, a few dozen yards away, to reload with more-powerful ammunition. When Carruthers returned, he focused on the older male, the prime aggressor. Kneeling down, he shot him once in the head from close range. As the animal fell to the ground, the younger chimp began dragging St. James's mutilated body down a hill leading away from Moe's cage.
....

The lone chimp continued tearing at St. James's limp body with his teeth until Carruthers caught up to him and shot him once in the chest, ending the attack.
So, with the right load, both a head shot and a chest shot with a .45 were effective, i.e. ended the attack immediately. With the wrong load, not so much...

Unfortunately, this story is from Esquire, so they don't think we need to know what the right load turned out to be...
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Old February 20, 2009, 02:38 PM   #13
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This same animal was shot with a tranq after running loose through the down town area a couple years ago.
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Old February 20, 2009, 02:49 PM   #14
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They're a lot stronger than humans, but really only a bit thicker boned. They have the same innards and can be killed with the same weapons. Hit one in the heart with a 9mm and it's pretty much like hitting a human in the heart; it will die. Maybe it will take a bit longer to die, but it will die nonetheless. The problem being that they're so strong and so fast, they can do a lot of damage in the time between the hit part and the dead part.

BTW: when I saw the thread title I thought you were referring to my handloads!
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Old February 20, 2009, 03:18 PM   #15
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they may be protected by law but on any street in Nigeria you can find them being sold as bush meat.

As I said someone was going to come along and say you need a stopping rifle for them. Its pure fantasy. Some people may use stoppers on baboons as targets of opportunity, its because its what they have or because they are nervous.

Regarding the quoted column and the .45 colts lack of effect. I can only imagine that was a "cowboy" load with a 155 round nose at 600 fps. Any standard 255 gr load would have punch a hole through it.
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Old February 23, 2009, 03:23 PM   #16
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Given the speed, strength, tendency to bite off hands, and the size, I would like something large enough so that if he's coming for me, I'd have a more forgiving caliber, one that would get his attention, and maybe make him rethink this whole thing. That's probably going to start at 7.62 x 39 or 54r, or .308. If humans can survive pistol rounds hitting, and live through to continue to fight, I'll choose a rifle for an animal that is MUCH stronger, can be much more determined, is MUCH faster, and can rip your arms off.

Who would you pick in a fight Sugar Ray Robinson or Ali, or a chimp that weighs 200 pounds?

If I HAVE to pick a pistol round, it's going to be something big, like a .475 Linebaugh, or .500 S&@.

Again, I'm distinguishing here an attack stopper, which is what this was, vs. hunting. I think the 7.62 x 39 has probably killed more African animals then all other calibers combined... Difference between hunting, carrying a chimp protection gun, for a pet, and trying to stop an enraged animal as quickly as possible.
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Old February 23, 2009, 03:42 PM   #17
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.223 with M193 or 100 grain Black Hills

.223 with M193 ammo from a barrel with at least 20".

Excellent round against non-armoured thin opponents like homo sapiens or the like.

When the M16 was first used in Vietnam, it was assumed that the smaller 5.56mm round would make much smaller wounds than the 7.62mm M80 round fired from the M14. Everyone was surprised to learn that M16 wounds were often much more severe. In order to explain this discrepancy, it was theorized that the slow 1:14 barrel twist made the bullet less stable in flesh and caused it to tumble, resulting in the large wounds. In fact, the slow twist only made the bullet less stable in air. Any pointed, lead core bullet has the center of gravity aft of the center of the projectile and will, after a certain distance of penetration, rotate (yaw) 180° and continue base-first. This is where the appearance of "tumbling" came from.

The actual cause of the larger-than-expected wounds was not a result of this yawing of the bullet, but of the velocity of the bullet coupled with the bullet's construction. M193 bullets have a groove or knurl around the middle, called a cannelure. This allows the mouth of the case to be crimped on to the bullet, preventing the bullet from being pushed back into the case during handling and feeding. The cannelure also weakens the integrity of the bullet jacket.

When the bullet struck flesh at a high-enough velocity, the bullet's thin jacket, weakened by the cannelure, could not survive the pressure of moving sideways through the dense flesh. Instead, the bullet would only rotate about 90°, at which point the stresses were too much for the bullet jacket and the bullet would fragment. The results were a wound that was far out of proportion to the size of the bullet. Yet, the twist rate of the barrel and therefore the rotation speed of the bullet, is not a factor in the fragmenting equation.

If the velocity is high enough this breaking up is pretty dramatic and causes equally dramatic wounds. This is because the fragments travel rapidly through the temporarily crushed tissue and tear it. Most tissue is very elastic and will stretch quite far before returning to its normal shape (this is called the temporary crush cavity) but the addition of quickly moving fragments makes permanent the cavity that might otherwise have returned after the impact and therefore creates a much larger wound.

With the right speed (20" barrel) the M193 yaws on impact and breaks apart at the cannelure, fragmenting into the target. Extreme damage:



Or 100 grain Black Hills in calibrated ballistic gelatin. Note the amazingly short neck before
tumbling (1 inch) and the dramatic fragmentation along with almost 13" of penetration:



This is very good and extensive info on the subject:
http://razoreye.net/mirror/ammo-orac...cle_Mirror.htm

and: http://le.atk.com/pdf/223RifleDataBook.pdf

Given the extreme terminal performance (if barrel lenght & bullet fit together), the light recoil and high number of great platforms (AR-15, Mini-14, AUG, FAMAS etc, Rem 7615p ...) my choice would be a .223.
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Old February 23, 2009, 03:55 PM   #18
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Not enough penetration. Those super light bullet loads are designed to stop people, at close range, without penetrating through. I'll take a .308 based solution, like the 7.62 x 39 or 54r, or 30-06, with a 150-180 grain bullet. I want know doubt...
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Old February 23, 2009, 04:17 PM   #19
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I would probably go with whatever I happen to have on hand. Usually that means a .40 S&W.

I have both .357 and .44 Mag revolvers. Either would no doubt do the job, as would a 12 gauge pump shotgun - at close range even small shot would do, I'm sure. The .40 would be good because it's a pistol with which I regularly practice putting two and three rounds into a small area, quickly. Anything that needs shooting is worth shooting twice, and while I'm much more accurate with the revolvers, I'm a lot faster with the .40.
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Old February 23, 2009, 09:48 PM   #20
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Chimps are 4 times as strong as a man. The thing to remember is how little time it takes a wild animal to do a huge amount of damage. If you are around one of these things, you had better be fast and accurate....
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Old February 24, 2009, 09:47 AM   #21
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Watch the chimp grab the guys hands, as he attacks at the end.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpj6exWtbBY

If you can pull 200 pounds through trees, like nothing, and hang in trees all day, think how strong the arms and hands are. If they grab you, it's like having a vice clamp down on your forearms, or hands. My understanding is they also 'lock' in place,

Used to know a world class powerlifter. He could deadlift 650 pounds.
Ron Morris:
http://www.usapl-ca.org/records/mensmaster1pl.html

We asked him if he'd ever been in a fight, since we were training for the Olympics in boxing. He said some thief tried to break in, and he caught the guy. The guy tried to hit him with a pipe. He grabbed the guys arms, and squeezed. He said he just keep squeezing until the guy stopped screaming, and moving, and tried not to break his forearm bones...

Chimps have that kind of strength in their arms, and, they know how to take advantage of it.
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Old February 24, 2009, 10:37 AM   #22
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Thanks for all the thoughtful replies.

I hadn't thought of .223, but a lot of SWAT teams use them. So the consensus is that for something easily available on most police forces something like a .45, a .44 magnum or a .40 S&W would be about the minimum? How about a .357?

I visited the Yerkes primate lab a few years ago and was happy to see lots of steel protecting visitors, though in the actual lab itself there was closer contact between staff and younger chimps. I came to the conclusion that a two and a half year old baby chimp was as strong as most adult humans.
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Old February 24, 2009, 03:14 PM   #23
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Pistols are handy, but weak.

Quote:
Not enough penetration. Those super light bullet loads are designed to stop people, at close range, without penetrating through. I'll take a .308 based solution, like the 7.62 x 39 or 54r, or 30-06, with a 150-180 grain bullet. I want know doubt...
I disagree. e.g. the Federal 62gr LE223T3 penetrates very well. And chimps aren't big. A .308 kicks too much and leaves me to little time between shots. Capacity is only 50% of what I could have in my 42rds AUG magazines.

I wouldn't trust a pistol. I carry them 24/7 but only as a tool to make way to my nearest longgun. Pistols are handy, but weak.
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Old February 24, 2009, 08:38 PM   #24
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I have NO problem shooting a .308 M1A as fast as I can pull the trigger on an AR 15. I will concede that most .308 semi-autos are a bit heavier then the AR's. AK 47 anyone?
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Old February 25, 2009, 10:51 AM   #25
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How is it any different from self-defense against a person? You don't shoot just one time and then stop to look. This ain't a Hollywood movie. You shoot until the threat is obviously stopped. Just like Chairman Jeff always said. The reason for shooting in IDPA or with a stock gun in IPSC is to get your head straight for just this kind of situation. The only difference is the clothing. Chimps ain't got any.

Any law-enforcement handgun oughta suffice. Just don't think in terms of a one-shot kill, is all. Shoot until Bad Chimp quits moving.

If you have the time, sure, a rifle or shotgun is better. That holds true for people as well as chimps. Still, shoot until the problem is resolved. But the average fellow is not carrying a long gun as he walks or jogs past the chimp-lady's house in his evening constitutional.
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