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Old February 13, 2009, 11:57 PM   #1
TheOldPro
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Crimp necessary for 30-30 reloading?

I have never loaded any 30-30 shells at all, and wouldn't consider it now if I could find any on a store shelf. The basic (first) question is: if you make your gun a two-shooter (one in the chamber, only one in the magazine), is it necessary to do the crimp? I read somewhere that the crimp is basically there in the 30-30 because the shells recoil into each other in the magazine upon firing, and the crimp prevents this action from pushing the bullet deeper into the case. But if there are no other shells in the magazine, would the force of the spring in the magazine be enough to do the same, making the crimp still necessary?
The second question is: can I load the same 150 grain bullet that my 30-06 uses in the 30-30 case (assuming there is no need for a cannelure...if the answer to the first question is "No, you can't, the crimp is necessary", then this becomes a moot point).
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Old February 14, 2009, 09:45 PM   #2
45Marlin carbine
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you should follow the caveat against loading 30-30 for use in tubular magazines with pointed bullets due to possibility of setting off a primer.
I have read that some have used poly-tip slugs safely and now Hornady is makeing a poly-tip exclusively for the 30-30 and other tube mags (.35, .45-70, .44mag etc.)
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Old February 15, 2009, 12:12 AM   #3
Gbro
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Even with crimped rounds, reloads and store bought I have had many 30wcf's push the bullet in. The 30-30 is one of the hardest I have ever crimped. I have crumpled many cases trying to crimp them properly.
I have loaded spire points but only for the 788 bolt.
I would think even one cartridge un-crimped would push the bullet in. It would happen just pushing the loading gate open in my 1894.
Uniform case length is a must to get good crimps, and with some putzing anyone can do it, I am living proof. What I have found to work best for me is to seat all the bullets and then go back and set the die up for crimping. Then I don't make a second die adjustment with a partially crimped cartridge. That one is set aside and single loaded for warmup shots.

Quote:
I have never loaded any 30-30 shells at all, and wouldn't consider it now if I could find any on a store shelf.
Not a good sign of what the future holds if 30-30's are getting hard to find

Quote:
I read somewhere that the crimp is basically there in the 30-30 because the shells recoil into each other in the magazine upon firing, and the crimp prevents this action from pushing the bullet deeper into the case
Thats one reason, I think most push in when the action is closed and the string of rounds drop rearward in the tube. There is nothing soft about that action. Also i would never load more than 5 in a magazine to reduce the possibility.
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Last edited by Gbro; February 15, 2009 at 12:27 AM. Reason: add quote
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Old February 15, 2009, 05:11 AM   #4
youp
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We have used the 'two shooter' here. Different caliber and different reason. Put some factory 35 Rem pointed 150s in a young man's Savage pump. He showed up at camp with them and he did just fine. He turned out to be a 'one shooter' kind of kid. We also kindly educated him on the art of factory ammunition selection.

If I were to use a pointed 150 gr bullet in a 30-30 Win, I would stay away from the 'premium bullets'. They are generally made to stay together at a higher velocity. They may pencil at 30-30 velocities if you were to try to take game at longer ranges.

The problem with leaving the 'norm' when hand loading is what some other inexperienced shooter may do with your ammunition. Like maybe your Grandson. Hence the practice of not shooting anothers reloads. But your Grandson will trust Gramp's loads..... I mean he is gone on now and surely would want us to shoot this stuff rather than waste it.
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Old February 15, 2009, 09:22 AM   #5
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HOrnady Leverevolution bullets the best choice now that they are available as components

Lee Factory Crinp die Is the easiest and best way to Crimp the 30-30
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Old February 15, 2009, 10:53 AM   #6
kraigwy
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I have never crimped 30-30s or any other rifle bullet (excluding cast bullet loads).

I've never had a problem.

My question is: Why would a relatively low recoiling bullet like a 30-30 require a crimp to keep the bullet from moving under recoil and a a heavier round dosn't. How many rounds have you see move forward in the mag well, and why would a tubular mag be any differant.

If you're dies fit, meaning you get the proper neck tention, the crimp is not necessary.

An exception would be with compressed loads, where the powder can and does expand after loading, pushing the bullet out.
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Old February 17, 2009, 11:45 AM   #7
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My experience with loose crimps (both factory loads and my best) is limited to rounds that have been repeatedly chambered in my Win 94. Seems the trip up the ramp and against the top of the chamber puts some stiff side loads on the bullet. If your style of hunting causes you to clear the chamber a few times a day (crossing fences, climbing into your stand, etc...) you may discover after a few days of hunting some of the bullets are no longer tight in the brass.

One old timer I crossed paths with had more than a few of his factory bullets actually pushed back inside the case. He had been “hunting” (more like taking his gun for a walk) with the same box of bullets for too many years and the crimps were history.
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Old February 17, 2009, 11:50 AM   #8
Tom Matiska
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Don’t think less rounds in the tube means less force on the cartridge.

A factory gunsmith educating me on tube detonations explained to me that the initial recoil isn’t the problem. The bullets simply compress the spring “forward” (yeah, really the tube moves back and the bullet stands still...but...). The worst happens when the spring returns the bullet to the back of the tube and it hits hard metal.

He explained kabooms are most likely to happen with two in the tube. It can’t happen with one, and the spring dynamic is less with more rounds compressing the spring tighter. Made sense to me.
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Old February 17, 2009, 11:51 PM   #9
Gbro
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Quote:
Don’t think less rounds in the tube means less force on the cartridge.
I sure could be wrong here, but what I was referring to is the dropping back of the string of cartridges in the tube that happens upon the closing of the action. You have the compression of the magazine spring and the weight of the total number of rounds in the tube moving rearward and thumping to a stop.

I am very curious about Kreigwy's not crimping. I will give that a try this week.

I have a couple of boxes of dummy's made up just for training and they get used many times in the youth classes each year. The only thing that is inconsistent with these loads is I only give the youth 3 rounds to load and chamber, and they are 28grains >or< lighter than a loaded cartridge but so far I have not had one bullet push back yet.
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Old February 19, 2009, 12:23 AM   #10
Gbro
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Dug out the dummy's used in youth training and they are Lee (mold) cast and the crimps are set in good and deep. They are as tight as ever and have been cycled many times over the years.
Didn't have any 150gr flat nose (.308) bullets to test crimp vs no-crimp but did seat some 180gr spire points in backwards to get the feel of crimp vs no-crimp.
When I test chambered a couple of these, they didn't chamber fully with the blunt ends hitting the rifling's. but it wasn't difficult closing the bolt/action pushing the bullet deeper, until I tried the "Un-crimped rounds" These "were" tighter!, Now I have to order up some bullets and run this test again!
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Old February 19, 2009, 07:37 AM   #11
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interesting post, I don't own a 30-30 lever but one of my nephews just inherited a nice Marlin so I got dies (including Lee FCD) and brass and looking for components. so any onfo appreciated.
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Old February 19, 2009, 10:35 AM   #12
alsmith
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Crimp for Smooth Feed of Flat Nose Bullets in 30-30

I load about 1,500 rounds of flat nose 30-30s a year and shoot Cowboy Lever Silhouette

In Cowboy Lever Silhouette you load five rounds at a time.

I have not had a problem with non-crimped rounds going back into the case.

However, before I factory crimped the rounds, the feed of the bullet from the tube into the breech of my Marlin 30-30 was sometimes what I would describe as rough.

When I started Lee Factory Crimping the round feed from the tube to the breech really smoothed out.

I would recommend the Lee Factory Crimp die. It is reasonably priced, works as a separate operation and can be done as fast as you can reload your press.

I would not recommend using pointed bullets. A friend of mine once did and even though he meant to use them only as a single load direct to the breech, once he forgot with a less than memorable result.

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Old February 19, 2009, 04:30 PM   #13
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I use the Factory Crimp even though I do as you stated (one in chamber and one in magazine) when shooting something other than flat-nose bullets.
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Old February 19, 2009, 06:23 PM   #14
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This thead is def. interesting. I am currently reloading for my newly aquired winchester 94 30 wcf. I had purchased a box of Hornady's new LeveRevolutions and have loaded a few so far with various loads for testing. I myself used the Lee Factory crimp. I hope that I have put enough crimp on these. After I crimped them around the cannular, I can see the indentions around the mouth of the brass where the cannular is. Do you think for an added safety, I should maybe adjust the FCD a little more and do a bit more crimp?
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Old February 22, 2009, 09:37 PM   #15
Gbro
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Daywalker,
Quote:
I had purchased a box of Hornady's new LeveRevolutions and have loaded a few so far with various loads for testing. I myself used the Lee Factory crimp. I hope that I have put enough crimp on these. After I crimped them around the cannular, I can see the indention's around the mouth of the brass where the cannular is. Do you think for an added safety, I should maybe adjust the FCD a little more and do a bit more crimp?
I truly don't think you have to crimp a LeveRevolution bullet into a case. The dynamics of the soft tip bullet should soften all impacting during working through action and firing.

I spent most of the day yesterday cycling crimped and uncrimped rounds through my 1894 Winchester, then 2 hours at the range shooting and measuring the rounds as they were recycled through the rifle.
Here is an example of what I did in 8 different tests.

Test 1 COAL 2.542" 150 grain round nose soft points 6 uncrimped dummy rounds w/fired primers.
Rounds numbered & loaded 1-6 and and cycled through the action 10 cycles.
On the 10th cycle loads were compared. Load #4 was notably shorter measuring 2.438"
11th cycle ------------ 12th cycle ---------- 13th cycle
1. 2.500 ----------- 2.496 ------------ 2.494 -.048
2. 2.508 ----------- 2.508 ------------ 2.506 -.036
3. 2.419 ----------- 2.404 ------------ 2.383 -.159 **
4. 2.501 ----------- 2.500 ------------ 2.500 -.042
5. 2.508 ----------- 2.505 ------------ 2.502 -.040
6. 2.535 ----------- 2.535 ------------ 2.535 -.007
All bullet tips were deformed.

Test 2 COAL 2.542" 150 grin round nose soft points 6 Crimped dummy rounds w/fired primers.
Rounds numbered & loaded 1-6 and and cycled through the action 10 cycles.
On the 10th cycle loads were compared. Load #3 was notably shorter measuring 2.500".
11th cycle ------------ 12th cycle -------- 13th cycle
1. 2.529 ------------ 2.529 ----------- 2.529 -.013
2. 2.526 ------------ 2.525 ----------- 2.523 -.019
3. 2.542 ------------ 2.539 ----------- 2.538 -.004
4. 2.500 ------------ 2.498 ----------- 2.498 -.044 **
5. 2.533 ------------ 2.533 ----------- 2.532 -.010
6. 2.535 ------------ 2.534 ----------- 2.533 -.009
All bullet tips were deformed.


Test 3 was with 150 grain RP factory loads Round # 3 again was the shortest after 10 load cycles.


Test 4 was with 170 grain FED COAL 2.505 factory loads.
This test was set to fire round 6, 10 times and measuring rounds 3, 4 & 5
with rounds 1 & 2 being dummy's.

3. 2.478
4. 2.488 = loss of .017"
5. 2.478 = loss of .027"


Summation;
While non-crimped 30WCF cartridge's will function just fine as long as they are not cycled through the action too many times, all cartridges that are in certain positions in the magazine (tubular) will exhibit movement.
This test could have been done much more extensively had the weather been warmer. My fingers were getting so stiff that I was having trouble holding the pen @ 17(f). However the 100 yard turkey had a much worse day
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Last edited by Gbro; February 22, 2009 at 09:44 PM. Reason: add ticks
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