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View Poll Results: Would you choose an automatic weapon for HD?
Yes 45 26.01%
No 128 73.99%
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Old February 11, 2009, 08:26 AM   #51
fatboy02
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Damage control?

I wonder what your home owners insurance agent would say as you are turning in your claim for all the bullet holes starting in the bedroom and exiting out of the sideing of the house, through walls. windows, refrigerator, kitchen sink, the microwave and coffee pot and for that matter just about everthing else in the path of your spray.

There may be some damage to the house with a shotgun but I have to imagine a heck of a lot less with well a placed shot verses a full auto spray. Just my 2 cents.
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Old February 11, 2009, 08:47 AM   #52
DieHard06
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Quote:
The original poster Specifically Stated that "Cost and the Law"]were not considerations.
Why do so many posters chose to ignore the actual question or circumstance as stated in a thread and therefore lose entirely what the questions original author intended.
Thank you. If they weren't a consideration than you shouldn't have to worry about the courts in this alternative world. Also, as far as excessive force goes, are you sure that that applies to home invaders in your own home? In my state when I am in my home or place of business I do not have to retreat, but can defend myself with deadly force when in imminent danger.

Spray and pray is what i do when I aim a shotgun in the general direction of the bad guy and hope it takes him down. I agree with the poster who said that shotguns are harder to handle. I am not saying shotguns aren't the way to go, but I just don't feel as comfortable with one, which is my opinion. When shooting a FA weapon you only fire in short bursts or take the three-round burst option. I would love to have this option.
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Old February 11, 2009, 09:37 AM   #53
AK103K
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Spray and pray has nothing to do with the gun, thats a user issue and lack of training. With any of them, you shoot the target, not at it.

If your worried about holes in the wall or your appliances, or what someone else might think, your heads in the wrong place and not in the game.
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Old February 11, 2009, 11:03 AM   #54
4V50 Gary
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Being in California, we're not trusted by Sacramento with selective fire so this is strictly academic. I'm inclined not to use one if I had one. Remember, your gun will be seized as evidence until you are cleared of an unlawful homicide. In the meantime, it'll sit uncleaned in the evidence room. I'd rather not lose an expensive weapon when a semi can do the same job.
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Old February 11, 2009, 01:16 PM   #55
Recon7
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No, if there is somebody standing outside my bedroom door, the kid's room is the backstop.

Maybe if I ****** off the mob or something. . .
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Old February 11, 2009, 01:46 PM   #56
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An MP-5 is incredibly easy to control, so I suppose if cost and the law were no object, why not? You've got all the advantages of any long gun, and it's compact and controllable.

That being said, my $150 870 is no slouch.
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Old February 11, 2009, 03:04 PM   #57
B. Lahey
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Shotguns loaded with buck or slugs are not easy for "most" people to shoot well,
Sure they kick more, but that's not the whole story. Just about everyone I know has not only fired a shotgun, they have some experience hitting moving targets with a shotgun. Only a very small minority or people I know have any experience at all with automatic rifles.

They kick more but just about everyone knows how to use one in rural America. If I tossed a full-auto AK to a random person in my area, chances are slim that they would be able to hit anything with it.

I've been shooting shotguns since I was big enough to pick one up, but I could count my full-auto experiences on my fingers and toes without running out of digits. I sure know which one I would be more comfortable handling in a stressful situation.
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Old February 11, 2009, 04:10 PM   #58
AK103K
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I understand where your coming from, and your also making my point about not having the experience with the automatics to know the difference. The majority of shooters dont have the exposure, experience or training with one, and that is an unfortunate thing. Its a simple skill to learn, and most get the basics down in just a mag or two.

I've taught a lot of people to shoot full auto over the years, and its actually a lot easier than you might think. Women and kids are usually the easiest and fastest learners. They are also the ones most likely to shy away from the shotgun. The technique works for all of them, and once learned, its very easy to do.

Believe it or dont, but the people I've had the most trouble with, have been ex military. Amazingly enough, most knew very little, or seemed to have "forgoten" anything they did know. My kids did better at 6 than most of them did. Men seem to have more of the ego thing going too, and its to their detriment. I've come to the conclusion that more have learned from the movies than the military.

Give me about 15 minutes and a couple of mags, and you wont want to look that that shotgun again, except for hunting.
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Old February 11, 2009, 06:55 PM   #59
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I think the key with the shotgun is to get away from the full-power buckshot, and substitute reduced-recoil buckshot, such as the Federal with the Flight-control wad. It patterns a lot better too.
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Old February 11, 2009, 07:26 PM   #60
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In my time I have used m-16's full amd semi-auto, Thompsons, M-60's, Grenade launchers, Pistols, Revolvers and hunting rifles. In our urban areas unless you have to make 200yard shots, rifles of any kind are crazy. If you can't handle a situation with a hand gun and or a shotgun you are better served having a safe room in the basement with a cellphone speeddialed to 911.
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Old February 11, 2009, 10:47 PM   #61
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Really? So if I follow you correctly, deploying a carbine under 200 yards is crazy, but OK after that? At what point is deploying a shotgun or pistol crazy? I'd say well under 200 yards. Should there be no intermediate distance option? I say "yes" and advance the carbine as the viable solution; the "from across the room to as far as you'd be reasonably expected to ever use it" option.
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Last edited by Erik; February 11, 2009 at 11:18 PM.
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Old February 11, 2009, 11:55 PM   #62
JohnH1963
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Many readers of this thread think of an automatic weapon as one that sprays bullets about carelessly hitting innocent bystanders such as the Ingram MAC-10. They think of Rambo with the M-60.

In my experience, the MP5 completely broke that stereotype. When I first fired the MP5, I found that it was very tame and controllable on fully automatic. This was indeed a surgical weapon that is not designed to miss. The NAVY seals trust it, the FBI trusts it...This weapon has no felt recoil and could accurately lay down fire.

The goal in the home defense scenario is not to lay down cover or sustained fire, but to utilize short bursts of 3-5 bullets into the target.

When I was at the range with the MP5, I found that I could easily get all of my bursts into the target's chest without any misses. It was an easy weapon to handle and I cant imagine anyone being able to survive a short burst from that weapon. 3-5 high speed 9mms will slow that burglar down.

The MP-5 would be a great home defense weapon and I wish the police would carry this as a substitute for their duty weapon. I would be very comfortable using this weapon for home defense.

You need to fire the MP5 or another similiar sub-gun to know what I mean.

Last edited by JohnH1963; February 12, 2009 at 12:03 AM.
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Old February 12, 2009, 06:26 AM   #63
Firepower!
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"Remember, your gun will be seized as evidence until you are cleared of an unlawful homicide."

Again, why does everyone comfortably ignores the assumptions made in the initial post like cost is not a factor. Gun being siezed is a cost. What does it take for some of you to answer a simple question based on simple assumptions. If you cant answer that, I am doubtful if you are even qualified to own a weapon let alone talk about its use.

Sorry but myself and a few others have been consistantly stating to follow the assumptions.
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Old February 12, 2009, 07:13 AM   #64
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Firepower summed it up nicely.

If you can't or won't understand the importance of answering his question as stated then it is quite likely that your understanding of the two weapons systems are marginal at best.

The shotgun is certainly a prolific weapon, probably second only to the ubiquitous .22LR Rifle in its numbers around the country.
However for defensive use, there has never been a less understood weapon.
(Volumes can and have been written addressing this).

On the other hand, the Appropriate use of Full Auto is also little understood.

Both systems require more than dusting clay pigeons or making rapid fire perforations in a static paper target to give the individual the ability to wring out the performance that make each system unique.

The question that Firepower has posed should not be interpreted as one of "Which do you like/feel most comfortable with" rather to get us to think out the strengths and weaknesses of these two powerful defensive/offensive systems.

And when comparing, the only way to put them on a level playing field is to remove the extraneous constraints put on either or both by outside forces Ie NFA, Cost, and any other rules or foolishness.
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Old February 12, 2009, 08:48 AM   #65
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Quote:
When I was at the range with the MP5, I found that I could easily get all of my bursts into the target's chest without any misses.
My uncle once told me about the use of M-16's during Vietnam. At the time, there was no such thing as a 3 or 5 round burst selector. He pointed out that full-auto was useless unless you were putting cover fire down over a rice-paddy. Alternatively, full auto could be used to scare the enemy into retreat temporarily, but don't expect to hit much. If you really wanted to shoot the enemy, you needed to aim at them and control your shots. This meant fewer than 3 bullets leaving the muzzle at a time. His opinion was past 3 rounds, you were no longer on target. Apparently the soldiers of that era used a technique of quick trigger squeezes to let off 3-4 rounds at a time. He said that most guys that saw much combat got VERY good at it. I assume he saw plenty of combat because he is still a train-wreck today, but he has never talked about that.

I wasn't there and I don't know much about what the modern Army does or what the selector on a modern M-16 looks like, but that was what he told me. The MP-5, however, does have a burst selector. I suspect that is the way that the SEALS use it.

So my point is, perhaps from a technical standpoint, an automatic rifle firing controlled bursts is certainly effective. However, it is a weapon made for war. It is not made for neighborhoods, unless you live in the Gaza Strip. Yes, police do carry AR-15's and MP-5's, but in my neck of the woods, they are all semiautomatic. And that seems to be more than sufficient enough for most folks who are not defending a hill in Korea circa 1951.
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Old February 12, 2009, 08:55 AM   #66
Firepower!
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+1
Thank you DVC9
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Old February 12, 2009, 08:59 AM   #67
B. Lahey
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Quote:
The question that Firepower has posed should not be interpreted as one of "Which do you like/feel most comfortable with"
Wrong. The question is "Would you choose an automatic weapon for HD?". Any reasoning that the responding individual wants to use seems fair game to explain why or why not that individual would choose FA or not, including discussions of which arm they are most comfortable with.

It's a better response than just spouting some random generic statements without actually saying anything or answering the question.
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Old February 12, 2009, 09:20 AM   #68
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I would go with the full auto AK 47 with a 75 round drum and folding stock. If I was in Firepower's situation then that would be a nice blend of maximum capacity of a larger caliber. And for myself, the AK is a small enough weapon that I would be comfortable moving through a house with.

Firepower!, what are the walls of your home constructed of? I'm guessing they are not sheetrock and pine 2x4's...
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Old February 12, 2009, 09:27 AM   #69
AK103K
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Quote:
If you really wanted to shoot the enemy, you needed to aim at them and control your shots.
This is the basic premise with any weapon. You have to shoot the target, not at it. Some just require a little more discipline on the shooters part.

Quote:
Apparently the soldiers of that era used a technique of quick trigger squeezes to let off 3-4 rounds at a time.
This is part of the basic technique for quick, controllable fire.

The best part about select fire guns is, you get to "select" the use. You use whats necessary when you need it. Its knowing what is needed and when its needed thats the part many seem to have trouble with or understand.


Quote:
The MP-5, however, does have a burst selector.
Some do and some dont. Depends on how they are set up. The true burst selector is your trigger finger routed through your brain.

Personally, I dont like burst devices and feel they are unnecessary, especially with the MP5. Its trigger will allow one shot bursts once your used to it. Two and three shot bursts are very easy and natural. I dont need or want the gun to tell me how many rounds will go with the pull of the trigger. Who knows, I may want all of them off at once for some strange reason. (mostly thats just to prove to nay sayers that it "can" be done, and done controllably. Its not something I'd normally do.) Once you have the technique down, you can easily dump a whole mag into COM with little effort.
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Old February 12, 2009, 06:11 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by B. Lahey
If I tossed a full-auto AK to a random person in my area, chances are slim that they would be able to hit anything with it.
Anyone who knows AKs will know that you can put them on semi . Then again, most people I know (also in rural Indiana) wouldn't even know how to take the selector off of safety on an AK. BTW, I know that you are saying that they couldn't hit anything meaning that they couldn't hit anything while utilizing the F/A function.

Also, maybe it is an Indiana thing, but shotguns are very easy to shoot and shoot well. Almost everyone I know that is even slightly into guns can shoot a shotgun at least fairly well.

I would use a F/A weapon, but probably not as my primary. I really like shotguns and they are hard to beat for home defense.
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Old February 13, 2009, 03:27 PM   #71
Firepower!
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I think a properly used MP5 SD is most suited for in doors. Automatic weapon gives you the option to use burst if needed. It does not mean that you can only spary and pray. There is a reason why we train to use them and control rate of fire with finger.
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Old February 13, 2009, 05:31 PM   #72
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Most of the people posting here seem to forget that Firepower! lives outside the U.S. in a part of the world with very different circumstances than most of us posting here. I can see a use for full-auto in certain situations, a Katrina-like situation where you do actually have roving gangs of thugs and virtually no law enforcement is one as suppressing fire and area-denial may actually be useful tactics in such an environment. Remember, such situations are not so uncommon in other parts of the world. Where I disagree with Firepower! is his choice of full-auto weapons. Something in an intermediate rifle caliber such as 5.56x45 NATO or 5.45x39 Soviet (eg. AKS74U, Sig 552, or Colt M4) would be a better choice IMHO, as with the right ammunition (i.e. light JHP) it will not penetrate walls significantly more than a 9mm subgun but does offer significantly better terminal performance and range.
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Old February 14, 2009, 03:26 AM   #73
Firepower!
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Webley
The krinkov has a muzzle flash and noise that will make you deaf when fired in doors. M4 can be used with suppressor on but I would not be comfortable in shootting 5.56 in doors. 9mm to me is a better choice. However, if the battle moves outdoors then the rifles you mentioned are better choice.
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Old February 14, 2009, 02:52 PM   #74
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Firepower, XM193 5.56x45, 9mm JHP, and .45 ACP JHP will all, according to the Box O' Truth website, penetrate 12 boards of sheetrock which is equivalent to 6 interior walls. The 5.56 rounds, however, began to tumble with the handgun rounds did not. Using ammunition like a 40grn JHP in a 5.56 would likely induce more tumbling and/or expansion and further limit penetration.
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Old February 14, 2009, 03:32 PM   #75
Firepower!
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Webley, who is E Fudd? Also plz respond to my new post in nfa.

back to thread... I aslo would like to add that a double tap with auto weapon is just too much for any intruder to resist
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