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Old February 19, 2009, 02:03 PM   #51
NRAhab
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1. NavySeals.com
2. M11

Plus, it's all over the wikipedia page on the P226 and the P228 about how the SEALs picked the Sig over the Beretta after several slide failures on the Berettas.
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Old February 19, 2009, 02:12 PM   #52
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Notice that even the source you provided me specifies a Sig P228 that comes in the 9mm. LOL. 9MM!
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Old February 19, 2009, 02:19 PM   #53
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Right. I never said they didn't carry the 9mm. I always said they carried the 9mm. What I'm saying is that they carry the 9mm, and in limited cases a .45 ACP because those cartridges are standardized by the military, not because they tested a bunch of rounds and said "9mm is king."

It works like this - in the late 70s, early 80s, the military says "we need to replace all these 50 year old 1911s we have", so they have trials for a new gun. Before they have those trials, they say "the gun has to be a 9mm, because that's what everyone in NATO is using". So the only guns submitted to the pistol trials were chambered in 9mm, out of you end up with the M9, M10, and M11. All of them 9mms. The SEALs say something roughly to the extent of "We don't want these Berettas", so they pick the Sig. In 9mm. The caliber of the firearm was never a choice - the people with stars on their shoulders decided that 9mm would be the service caliber, and that .45 would remain as an "approved" round.

To repeat myself - I never said SEALs don't use the 9mm. In fact, I said that their standard issue sidearm is a 9mm. What I'm saying is that they didn't the 9mm over another a cartridge, they picked one 9mm handgun (the Sig) over another 9mm handgun (the Beretta).
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Old February 19, 2009, 02:25 PM   #54
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Your other source says the P228 doesn't even come in .45, but is limited to 9mm, .357 Sig, and .40. This actually contradicts your latest statement about the "approved" .45.

So you see, you still have not provided the evidence we seek. Please provide the evidence that the Top Brass are who chose the 9mm rather than the SEALs themselves.

You only provided evidence they don't like the Beretta, not the 9mm caliber.
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Old February 19, 2009, 02:44 PM   #55
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I never said the P228 or the P226 came in .45. I said the H&K Mk23 SOCOM (or whatever it's called) comes in .45. I also never said that the SEALs didn't like the 9mm.

This article from Defense Review actually has a pretty history on the adoption of the Beretta by the armed forces, including the adoption of the 9mm. The 9mm was selected by NATO as the standard caliber, so we, being sort of the "bosshoss" in NATO, decided it would be our standard caliber as well. You can look up the Joint Services Small Arms Program, and the XM9 trials if you'd like information on the selection of 9mm as the standard service cartridge.

The point that I am laboriously trying to make is that yes, the SEALs use the 9mm, because they are issued a 9mm. The "other" SEAL handgun, the H&K Mk 23 chambered in .45 ACP is a "special purposes" gun. 9mm is the standard cartridge for the DoD, so their gun is a 9mm.
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Old February 19, 2009, 03:37 PM   #56
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To the OP: 180g HST seems to be this years king of the dog pile as far as SD ammo goes. Check either www.ammunitiontogo.com or www.gunbroker.com to find some. Now, for something completely different...


Ok, I'll throw my hat into this weeks #1 top stupid conversation.

I know someone who took a 7.62x39 to the head and not only lived, but is perfectly fine/normal and went on to father a son (me). I guess the 7.62x39 really doesn't work well against people?

Here's a pretty good rule of thumb to follow.

Handguns suck for use against people, it's something to think about. I know of ZERO people who have experience shooting at real live human beings who would choose a handgun over a rifle or shotgun if they knew they were going to have to shoot someone. So all this talk of the SEAL's use this or that is ridiculous. NONE OF US ARE SEALS! You're talking about what an expert uses, not because of the gun's capability, but because of the expert's ability to deliver fast accurate fire with it. Mossad Agents used .22's quite extensively for their wet-work, does that mean we should all feel warm and fuzzy carrying .22's just because they use it? No. If you decide to carry a .22 it better be because that's what you're most capable/comfortable with. On top of all that...

ANY round can fail. There are people who have survived .50 BMG hits. Heck, I've seen FLIR video of 30mm being used against insurgents, and the Apache gunner had to finish one of them off with a 2nd burst. I guess the conclusion I should draw from this is that the depleted uranium round those things fire aren't an effective man-stopper? They work great against ARMORED VEHICLES but for people we better get something bigger.

We all need to grow up, seriously. Some of us for saying REALLY stupid things, and others for feeding into said stupid things (me included).

Also, anyone willing to make decisions based off of one reported instance, good or bad, is not practicing good decision making abilities. It's about as smart as trying to win an argument on an internet forum.
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Old February 19, 2009, 03:59 PM   #57
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To the OP: 180g HST seems to be this years king of the dog pile as far as SD ammo goes. Check either www.ammunitiontogo.com or www.gunbroker.com to find some. Now, for something completely different...
Thanks, just ordered 500 rounds of it. Just doing my part to contribute to the ammo shortage
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Old February 19, 2009, 04:00 PM   #58
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Thanks, just ordered 500 rounds of it. Just doing my part to contribute to the ammo shortage
Glad I could help!
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Old February 23, 2009, 01:19 PM   #59
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Notice there is nothing in this story about the man driving himself to the hospital...so it would seem the .45 is a LOT MORE EFFECTIVE than the .40 caliber....

>>>>Texas Man Shoots Himself in Both Legs While in Cubicle

FORT WORTH, TX (AP) -- A 47-year-old insurance company worker accidentally fired his gun in his office cubicle, shooting himself in both legs, police said.....
Detectives will wait until the man, who was taken to a hospital, had recovered from his apparently non-life threatening injuries before deciding whether to pursue charges, McGuire said.>>>>

Also notice that nobody has coughed up any incident where anybody took 11 rounds of .45 acp or .357 or .44 spl and had to be beaten into submission with a mag-light.

I can think of at least one incident where a biker soaked up about 17 rounds of 9mm and kept on. I have read of another incident where a guy on drugs was shot dozens of times with medium bores before finally bleeding out.
But I don't know of many more spectacular stopping failures than the ones local police have experienced in my neck of the woods.
For what it was worth, I saw one of those real life police video shows here awhile back where a guy soaked up nearly an entire mag of .40s from a Glock pistol and was wrestling around on the ground with the officer.

As for the Navy Seal deal, back when Seal Team Six was founded Demo Dick Marcinko and the boys carried S&W .357 revolvers. When Demo Dick wanted an automatic pistol, they were offered 1911s and chose Beretta 9mms instead.
They had a problem with the frames cracking on the front edge of the mag well which Marcinko complained about and Beretta beefed the gun up in that area, and he had no further complaints.
Its in his biography.
If you notice the Taurus gun is not beefed up there....

Later on the Seals asked for and got Sigs...

Most of the problems with Beretta slides were traced to people in the military using silencers which put extra pressure on the locking block.
Moral of the story, if you want a silenced roscoe, stick with the Model 59/Hush Puppy.
Last I heard, Seals were given the options of their Sig 9s or the HK Mark 23 .45 pistols.
Demo Dick is big on Glocks and HKs these days.
I have also heard of individual SEALS carrying privately owned and customized .357s....

The biggest problem with Sanow and Marshalls stats is that in the real world, guns don't show the differences in stopping power that paper stats would appear to give you.
And there are multiple reasons for that.
For example, intellectually, we may feel that the 240 grain .44 magnum hollowpoint HAS to have more stopping power than a 125 grain jacketed hollow point .357.
But on the street the 125 JHP has more one shot stops.
In addition to having a larger data base to work with, the 125 grain JHP is probably more controllable to the typical shooter than a full house Keith .44 load and a good center mass hit with it is better than a near miss with a .44.

In theory that could explain a LOT of the .40s stopping failures. It has a nasty muzzle blast and recoil compared to say a 9 or a .45.

Also, as Cooper pointed out of the full house .44 load, from the way it happily whistles through a man, it may not have the same terminal effect as a round that stops in the body and the body has to soak up all the momentum.
That may also explain why the .40 looks good on the ballistics charts and papers, but performs like the .25 acp on the street.
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Old February 23, 2009, 01:24 PM   #60
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That may also explain why the .40 looks good on the ballistics charts and papers, but performs like the .25 acp on the street.
Are you serious?
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Old February 23, 2009, 09:43 PM   #61
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Now this is something that only a TROLL of the highest order would say.

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That may also explain why the .40 looks good on the ballistics charts and papers, but performs like the .25 acp on the street.
Mark Milton,

You should never be allowed to give advice to anyone on the subject of firearms. All of your comments and so called proof in this thread alone can be held up as proof of that.
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Old February 24, 2009, 12:25 PM   #62
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That may also explain why the .40 looks good on the ballistics charts and papers, but performs like the .25 acp on the street.
Anyone who honestly believes the statement above to be true needs to have their head checked by a shrink.

Having said that...

No handgun is a 100% guaranteed "death-ray".
This is why we train to shoot repeatedly until the threat is neutralized.
Anyone who expects a "one-shot-stop" is probably going to get killed one day.
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Old February 24, 2009, 03:28 PM   #63
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I'm just putting my .02 in...I have 165 grain Speer Gold Dots in my XD40. They feed just fine and they aren't the most expensive in the hollow point category. This is just my opinion, but you would be fine by having these in your XD40.
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Old February 24, 2009, 04:16 PM   #64
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I'm going to also chime in and say that there are many cases of people not dying from .22's all the way up to 44 mags.Carry what you know best and have the most practice with.

I carry the .40 cal with fed 180 hst's,i'm fixing to trade my ammo out for Winchester Ranger 165 gr sxt or better known as eagle talons.Paid 28.50 a box of 50 rounds from www.tds-us.com
Btw you can also order fed 180 gr hst's for about the same as atg.
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Old February 24, 2009, 04:28 PM   #65
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I'm going to also chime in and say that there are many cases of people not dying from .22's all the way up to 44 mags.Carry what you know best and have the most practice with.

I carry the .40 cal with fed 180 hst's,i'm fixing to trade my ammo out for Winchester Ranger 165 gr sxt or better known as eagle talons.Paid 28.50 a box of 50 rounds from www.tds-us.com
Btw you can also order fed 180 gr hst's for about the same as atg.
I'd stick with the HST's personally. Every test/review of SXT's compared to HST's has had the HST's coming out on top. Whatever makes you happy though
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Old February 24, 2009, 04:39 PM   #66
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i was hoping some one would compare the 2.I'm intrested to see how each stack up.
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Old February 24, 2009, 04:53 PM   #67
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R-P 165gr & 180gr Golden Saber
W-W 165gr & 180gr Ranger SXT
Federal 165gr & 180gr HST
Corbon 140gr & 155gr DPX
Speer 155gr & 180gr Gold Dot

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887

Quote:
Barnes XPB 140 & 155 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Speer Gold Dot 155 gr JHP
Federal Tactical 165 gr JHP (LE40T3)
Winchester Ranger-T 165 gr JHP (RA40TA)
Winchester Partition Gold 165 gr JHP (RA401P)
Federal HST 180 gr JHP (P40HST1)
Federal Tactical 180 gr JHP (LE40T1)
Remington Golden Saber 180 gr JHP (GS40SWB)
Speer Gold Dot 180 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 180 gr JHP (RA40T)
Winchester 180 gr bonded JHP (Q4355)
Forget about Hydra-Shoks, they're old-school tech.
[*** are "Eagle Talons"?]

And FYI, there are main arteries in your legs that could cause you to bleed to death if severed..

Read my sig for the true definition of "stopping power"
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Old February 24, 2009, 05:09 PM   #68
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That may also explain why the .40 looks good on the ballistics charts and papers, but performs like the .25 acp on the street.
BAAAAAAAWWWWWHAAAAAAHHAAAAAAHHHHHHAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:barf:

Someone's mommy allowed Jr Mall Ninja too much time on the internet again.
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Old February 24, 2009, 05:46 PM   #69
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That may also explain why the .40 looks good on the ballistics charts and papers, but performs like the .25 acp on the street.
The internet is the place where people spew their ignorant, baseless opinions. There simply is no credible evidence of this conclusion, neither from M&S or Fackler.

If you tell him that any handgun caliber can have the same failure, all he does is spew more of the same BS.

You tell him to show the slightest bit of evidence, and he ignores it and spews more of the same.

You can't argue with a fool.
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Old February 24, 2009, 10:32 PM   #70
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evidence?

I'm very impressed with your 'evidence' Mr. Milton... "a guy I know who's a cop", the local paper, and a Marcinko book. The only reason he's allowed to write anything about his time in the seals is that it's all hyperbole and reflection... any of the details are classified. Don't worry though, the rest of us who have been in the military and understand how ammo dumps and armories work (mr cz&px4) will straighten out the mess that you have left for people who are just looking for good information about ammunition. Please note that this thread is intended to discuss .40 S&W ammo, not the merits of the .40 caliber weapon.

Of course you might remember in 1986 there was a little throwdown in Miami in which an expertly trained bad guy took 12 hits from 9mm and .357 rounds, all over his body, while taking out 7 FBI agents(2 dead, 5 incapacitated). Check it out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout

All in all, it coomes down to the shooter being able to land a killing shot: a .25 ACP in the ear canal or eyeball is easily as effective as a .44 magnum anywhere.
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Old February 24, 2009, 10:42 PM   #71
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I almost forgot!

That my point in writing about the Miami shootout was to mention that it was because of this critical failure of ammunition that the FBI began looking for a better caliber for duty carry. Although several of the agents were carrying S&W .357 magnums, they were loaded with .38 special to reduce recoil and cost, as well as S&W Parrabellum 9mm autopistols. After several tests in the lab and at the range in which the 10mm auto was developed, they decided on the .40 caliber because it was easier for smaller men and women to acquire killing shots (the 10mm kicks like a .357) without sacrificing in expansion, penetration and kinetic energy at impact, also known as knockdown power.
Don't argue with me, argue with wikipedia:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10mm_auto
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Old February 25, 2009, 01:49 AM   #72
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Speer Gold Dot 165gr JHP
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Old February 25, 2009, 10:28 AM   #73
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Best .40 caliber
I would suggest you go to the below site and scrool down to .40 cal. The data tells it all. http://www.internetarmory.com/handgunammo.htm
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Old February 25, 2009, 11:31 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Chuckusaret
I would suggest you go to the below site and scrool down to .40 cal. The data tells it all. http://www.internetarmory.com/handgunammo.htm
Fictional Marshall & Sanow "One-Shot Stop" statistics

Quote:
The .357 Magnum, in Remington or Federal JHP, 125 grains, is unquestionably the most effective handgun cartridge in existence. Its proven ability to produce one shot stops exceeds that of any other round, including more powerful cartridges such as the .41 Magnum and .44 Magnum.


If there is any downside to using the .357 Magnum for self-defense, it would relate to the blast and kick of full power loads. Controllability is extremely important in follow-up shot placement, and self-defense requires that shots be fired rapidly and accurately.

For those uncomfortable with the buck and roar of full-load .357 Magnum rounds, there exist a variety of lower recoil cartridges that are equally well suited to self defensive purposes. Because the .357 Magnum is such an incredible manstopper, little is lost by "downgrading" to more temperate ammunition.

The following cartridges are recommended for those who desire to reduce recoil of the .357 Magnum cartridge. Rounds are listed in decreasing order of recoil severity:

Winchester "Silvertip" JHP 145 grains 85%
Remington "Golden Saber" JHP 125 grains 84%
Federal JHP 110 grains 90%
Remington "Medium Velocity" JHP 125 grains 83%
Cor-Bon JHP 115 grains NA


For 2.5-inch and 3-inch short-barreled Magnum revolvers, the last two recommended cartridges represent excellent self-defense rounds. These cartridges are ideal for snub nose revolvers like the Smith & Wesson Models 66, 19, 65, and 13; the Colt King Cobra; the Ruger GP100 and especially the small frame Ruger SP101. Ammunition manufactured by Remington, Federal, CCI or Winchester in JHP, 110 grains, is also a good choice for use in snubbies or by those sensitive to recoil.

If recoil from a .357 Magnum revolver is still perceived to be excessive, considering carrying the .38 Special Cor-Bon +P+, JHP, 115 grains. This lighter round packs plenty of stopping power (83%). Its use may encourage accurate placement of multiple shots in a self defense situation due to its reduced kick when compared to the .357 Magnum.

Note that a .357 Magnum revolver can shoot both .357 and .38 Special ammunition. A .38 Special revolver can only shoot .38 Special ammunition.

For those owners of a Taurus or Smith & Wesson .357 Magnum revolver that is still equipped with factory wooden grips, consider installing recoil-absorbing, ergonomic rubber grips. The difference in control afforded by these grips is enormous, and greatly aids rapid and accurate shooting.

For self defense, never carry soft points, semi-wadcutters, or any 158 grain or 180 grain JHP ammunition. These types of .357 Magnum cartridges are better suited to target shooting and hunting. The kick of the heavier bullets is correspondingly severe, possibly inhibiting follow up shots and accuracy when used to defend against aggression.

For practice, the all lead bullets are acceptable, but there are better choices, as the shooter will quickly discover when it is time to laboriously clean the lead fouling from the gun.

When selecting .357 Magnum cartridges for self protection, an individual can't go wrong by choosing JHP, 110 to 125 grains, made by any of the top five manufacturers


.45 ACP:

45 ACP Caliber:
One Shot Stopping Success: 63-94% (Actual)
Self Defense Rating: Best
Recommended Cartridges:

Federal "Hydra-Shok" JHP 230 grains 94%
Remington "Gold Sabre" JHPP 230 grains 93%
Cor-Bon JHP 185 grains 92%
Remington +P JHPP 185 grains 91%
CCI/Speer "Lawman" JHP 200 grains 88%
Federal JHP 185 grains 87%
what a steaming pile of horse manure...
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Old February 25, 2009, 03:26 PM   #75
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Damnit, ammunitiontogo.com sent me Hydra Shoks instead of HST's. Ahh well I guess I will just use them as practice ammo.
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