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Old February 12, 2009, 01:08 AM   #26
ghosst
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Another vote for the Fed HST
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Old February 12, 2009, 10:04 PM   #27
LanceOregon
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+1 on the Federal HST ammo. Those Hollowpoints expanded beautifully, and with awesome reliability.

Has anyone not noticed how long and deep the skives are in the HST's jacket design?

Here is a photo of the .40 S&W HST round that I have loaded in my pistols. Just compare these skives, to other hollowpoints:





And here is the round again below on the left, next to a Winchester Ranger T. Again, you can see how the skives in the jacket are much longer and deeper than those on the Winchester T bullet.


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Old February 14, 2009, 10:05 PM   #28
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It doesn't matter because the .40 Short and Wimpy has no stopping power...
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About Mark Milton
Biography
Back in college
Interests
firearms, cutlery and books
Occupation
technical
Obviously, firearms is out. Stick to books and cutlery.
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Old February 15, 2009, 01:51 PM   #29
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The .40 S&W has several confidence inspiring options to choose from; of which I recommend the better 180 grain varieties.
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Old February 15, 2009, 07:47 PM   #30
Powdersmoke
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Best .40S+W Ammo

IMO Speer 165g Gold Dot Hollow point, Remington 165g Golden Saber, Speer 155g Gold Dot hollow Point and Federal 155g Hydra Shok would all be solid choices. Best is a pretty broad term and what's best can vary depending on what you're most likely to encounter. For instance the ability to defeat tactical obstacles is probably alot bigger factor for someone in LE than a private citizen. A little research and talking to some knowledgeable people should help you figure out what will work for you. It's your life after all!
BTW, opinions as to what is the BEST ammo in any given caliber vary widely and will probably stay one of the most hotly contested subjects even among those with real world experience!!! All any of us can do is try to educate ourselves and choose wisely. If your choice is based on what you feel is credible information don't sweat it if someone trys to tell you you're a complete idiot for choosing it. Opinions about best carry ammo vary that much even among experts!!!

Last edited by Powdersmoke; February 15, 2009 at 07:56 PM. Reason: Spelling
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Old February 16, 2009, 02:49 PM   #31
Mark Milton
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Read it and weep....

This was in the local paper "The Logan Banner" in June of 2007

>>>Man shoots self in leg at Mall



LOGAN — Local law enforcement officers rushed to the scene on Wednesday in response to an unusual call after an unnamed man accidentally shot himself.
Logan Police Chief David White said the man had apparently purchased either the weapon or the ammunition and had loaded the gun.
"He was in the parking lot sitting at the intersection and it discharged and went through his leg," Chief White said yesterday. "It was a .40 Caliber handun, but he may have just bought ammunition there. (Nationwide, Wal-Mart stores stopped selling handguns during the Clinton administration).
Patrolman A. Newsome responded to the call to investigate.
"The man drove himself on to Logan Regional and from what we understand he was transferred on to Charleston," White said. "This incident happened around 1 p.m. No charges were filed."
Ironically, it was not the only self inflicted injury area law enforcement officers handled on Wednesday as the Logan County Sheriff's Department looked into an incident where a man reportedly accidentally hurt himself with a knife earlier that morning. >>>

I have said this before, but people who are more into trendy than reality just don't remember- When I moved to where I live now, there was a major firefight that went down where a guy got shot 11 times with .40 weapons and kept fighting back even after his own gun ran empty. The cops had to beat on him with flashlights to subdue him.
One of the officers was a friend of mine and he told me point blank — It was like we were shooting him with BB guns —.
Not a week later there was a shooting with a 9mm and it was a one shot stop.

A few months after that there was another shooting where a bad guy soaked up 7 rounds of hot, trendy .40 caliber bullets in the next county over and guess what? He didnt' go down.

Meanwhile, local papers were declaring police brutality "because everybody knows you don't have to shoot somebody more than once or twice for them to fall down and stop."

I myself took a copy of an old Caliber Press book on law enforcement to the editor and showed him golly geewhilikers there are people who have been shot dozens of times and still kept on fighting back...

Now, that's reality. If you would rather fall for marketing hype, more power to ya. Me and the ghost of Elmer Keith will tip a brew in your memory if it turns out fatal for you.
But remember, think about what you will do if you shoot somebody with one of these overrated popguns and he doesn't fall down.
What happens if he stabs or shoots you, because you didn't Roarke him (Use Enough Gun)?
Almost as bad, what happens if you shoot a bad guy 11 times with your hot, trendy .40 and have to reload and the local press accuses you of brutality and goes on and on in editorials about how the fact you kept firing and reloaded shows you were murdering this poor bum?

I know of other stopping power failures but none as dramatic as the .40 ones.
One Williamson officer got shot in the leg during an altercation by a bad guy with a .38 snub and didn't realize it until later when filling out his report he felt something wet running into his socks. It was his own blood.
In Lexington, back in the 80s, there was a case where a deranged person got shot six times with .38s before he had to be wrestled to the ground by about half a dozen police officers.
Conversely, I don't know of any stopping power failures with the .357 magnum, which was also a popular duty weapon where I live now , and in Lexington when I lived back there.
I know of many 9mm shootings, most of them which ended after one, two or three rounds were fired.

You can make intelligent decisions about your own safety based on facts or you can have opinions based on wishful thinking and marketing and what's trendy. But an intelligent person will stick with the facts instead of getting their feelings hurt because they made a bad choice when it came to a defensive arm.

Its funny. People who choose poorly when it comes to firearms often can't take any reality. Look at the people who get bent out of shape when you try to explain to them, "uh, no buddy, you can't make a decent .380, 9mm or .40 out of zinc for under $200."

Honestly boys, nobody was more dissapointed in the failure of the .40 as a gunfighting tool than I was. As a hardcore Keith fan and Cooper trooper I foolishly beleived it just HAD to be better than the puny 9mm because it was bigger and had heavier bullets. After all, it was so much like the .38-40 revolver round which had a good rep for stopping power.
Sometimes a bullet looks more impressive on paper than it performs on the street.
Haven't you guys ever heard of Ed Sanow and Evan Marshall?
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Old February 16, 2009, 03:53 PM   #32
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Honestly boys, nobody was more dissapointed in the failure of the .40 as a gunfighting tool than I was. As a hardcore Keith fan and Cooper trooper I foolishly beleived it just HAD to be better than the puny 9mm because it was bigger and had heavier bullets. After all, it was so much like the .38-40 revolver round which had a good rep for stopping power.
Sometimes a bullet looks more impressive on paper than it performs on the street.
Haven't you guys ever heard of Ed Sanow and Evan Marshall?
Sure have. Some discount Evan's "studies," but you are aware that he did carry the 135 gr. Powerball in his .40 S&W Sig 229, right?

http://www.stoppingpower.net/forum/t...hTerms=.40+S&W

Quote:
10% Ballistic Gelatin Tests for:
Corbon .40 S&W .135 gr. Pow-R-Ball

Testing Platform:
SIG 229 – 3.9” Barrel

Barrier:
4 Layers of Denim


TEST RESULTS:

Round # 1:
Penetration: 11.25"
Recovered Weight: 131.0 gr.
Expansion*: .710 cal.

* Expansion measured at widest point.


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Evan
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24943 Posts
Posted - March 06 2005 : 09:49:37 AM
---------------------------------------------

it's what I'm currently carrying in my P229 SIG
Even if Evan no longer carries the .40 S&W, can you show me evidence where he arrives at the same conclusions as you have?
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Old February 16, 2009, 03:55 PM   #33
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Most of us have heard of Sanow & Marshall, and most of us also know that their study is flawed, as it completely discounted shootings that involved more than one round. At best, the Marshall and Sanow study compiled an awesome table of incomplete data, and at its worst it's been used to extrapolate false conclusions from incomplete data by people who don't get statistics.

The kicker is that I'm not even taking issue with their study itself, because for what it actually represents, it's not bad - they do a good job of collecting data on which rounds produced one-shot stops. But because a gunfight is a dynamic event, there's no way to control for variable actions, such as target presentation, bone density, adrenaline levels, etc; but people don't care about that stuff and just take the data and assume that because the .445 Heffalump has a 90% one shot stop rate that it's the penultimate defensive round, surpassed only by the .666 Double Heffalump Magnum.

If I were to examine the anecdotal story presented about a guy shooting himself in the leg with a .40, there are HUGE problems with that, being that the leg is a lousy place to shoot someone if you're looking to produce a stop. If the bullet doesn't 1) shatter the femur, or 2) cut the femoral artery, it's most likely just going to zip through and through all the muscle and fat in your thigh. A .45 or 9mm would do the exact same thing in the same spot.

In this day and age, modern defensive ammo in common service cartridges (9mm, .45 ACP, .40 S&W, .357 Sig, etc) are all designed to meet or exceed the FBI protocols, which set standards for penetration and expansion. Effectively, modern LE-marketed loads (Gold Dots, Golden Sabers, Winchester Rangers, all the other ones) are all designed to penetrate 12 inches or more while defeating common barriers and expand to .60 inches or greater, across the board in 9mm, .40, and .45 ACP.

Modern bullet design has a lot more to do with "stopping power" than the number that comes in front of your cartridge of choice.
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Old February 16, 2009, 04:35 PM   #34
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Read it and weep....

This was in the local paper "The Logan Banner" in June of 2007

>>>Man shoots self in leg at Mall
Please let me know when you put all your .45ACPs up for sale there sport.

http://www.wcbs880.com/pages/1157000.php?

Posted: Wednesday, 31 October 2007 10:55AM

Texas Man Shoots Himself in Both Legs While in Cubicle

FORT WORTH, TX (AP) -- A 47-year-old insurance company worker accidentally fired his gun in his office cubicle, shooting himself in both legs, police said.

The man, who hasn't been identified, had put his .45-caliber gun into his jacket pocket and then draped the jacket over the back of his chair Tuesday morning, said Brett McGuire, Lake Worth police chief. The gun discharged as the man settled into his chair.

McGuire said the man must have done something to make the weapon fire. The bullet passed through both of the man's legs and a bookcase before lodging in the wall of a cubicle.

There was no indication the man had brought the gun to target anyone, but rather he ``just felt the need to carry it,'' McGuire said.

``He wasn't having problems with his bosses or co-workers that we know of,'' McGuire said.

Police have no record of the man being licensed to carry a concealed weapon. He also appears to have violated his company's policy against bringing guns to work without company officials' permission.

Detectives will wait until the man, who was taken to a hospital, had recovered from his apparently non-life threatening injuries before deciding whether to pursue charges, McGuire said.
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Old February 16, 2009, 04:41 PM   #35
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To inject a note of real-world experience here.

I have not -personally- ever shot anyone (Thank the Maker) however, during my LE career I was present on more than one occasion when a firearm was used against a human being.

Theory is all well and good but I've seen, with my own eyes, the mess that .40 cal, 165gr, Winchester Ranger SXT rounds can make of a human being.

I've also seen what 165gr Federal HST will do, first to a car window, then to the guy behind said window.

Based on that knowledge I would recommend either one for SD carry.
(I carry Ranger in my gun which is about the highest recommendation I can give. Doesn't mean it's the absolute best but it's what I've chosen to trust)

As for Mark Milton's comments,
I saw a man who had taken 3 .45 ACP rounds in the leg and buttock. Not only did he not die, he refused to go to the hospital and just kept walking around his house pointing to the damage to his siding. I also saw a man who had taken 2 .357 Magnum rounds to his arm and walk himself to the ambulance and then to the hospital and he didn't even loose his arm.

Hits to extremities are rarely fatal unless a major vein or artery is cut.

Last edited by ZeSpectre; February 18, 2009 at 09:12 AM.
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Old February 16, 2009, 06:48 PM   #36
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Im with ZeSphectre on this one...

I have also seen with my own eyes the results of shootings with the .40 s&w.
Every time it produced the "stop" people are looking for (in one of the shootings the shot appeared to be instantly fatal).

I'm at a loss for words how someone who brings up Sanow and Marshal can take one story they read in the local penny-saver paper and dismiss and entire caliber of bullets.
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Old February 16, 2009, 08:00 PM   #37
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I think this info speaks for itself:
http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppi....asp?Caliber=0
165 gr S&W performed better than some .45 +p and better almost every .40 round tested better than the best 9mm round.

That info is probably years old too, .40 ammo has only gotten better since then with the HST and DPX.
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Old February 18, 2009, 12:08 AM   #38
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thank you guys! i will ask around some more and try out some different kinds. I am leaning toward the Remington Golden Sabers, Corbon DPX, Gold Dots, or Federal Hydra Shocks...
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Old February 18, 2009, 10:41 PM   #39
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Are you also representing that a 9mm is ballistically superior to a .40??

The Navy Seals would seem to think so, because a 9mm cartridge is what they use. Say the word and I'll back that up.
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Old February 18, 2009, 10:50 PM   #40
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Baltimore city PD and myself trust .40 golden sabers. 165 grain. Penetration is nothing... wound channel is everything.
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Old February 19, 2009, 07:02 AM   #41
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it ridiculous, all this .40 Short & Weak bashing that goes on with all the internoobs.


this test said it sucks, this story said it failed, bla, bla, bla!



the real world shooting results coming in indicate that the current premium rounds are increadibily devastating and effective, particularly the 165gr. versions . reports from witnesses indicate grusome wounds with the ranger-T and HST bullets


shot placement 1st

rounds selection 2nd

caliber 3rd


one just might find that many critics cant shoot it for beans. just a thought.



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Old February 19, 2009, 09:02 AM   #42
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I keep my GLOCK 23 packed with Gold Dots, but would certainly try the HST's if I could find them locally.

This rocks, my 666 post.
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Old February 19, 2009, 09:56 AM   #43
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The Navy Seals would seem to think so, because a 9mm cartridge is what they use. Say the word and I'll back that up.
The SEALs use a 9mm because that's what they're told to use. I believe it's some variant of the SIG p226, but I'm not 100% certain on that one. The military supply chain is loooooong and procuring a new round when you've got X,000,000 rounds of 9mm stocked up is expensive, and not something that the titan of bureaucracy that is the military is likely to do.

The reason the Coast Guard was able to switch to Sigs in .40 S&W is because they were sitting on top of a big fat pile of Homeland Security bucks, and wanted to get more in line with the "law enforcement" image.
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Old February 19, 2009, 10:09 AM   #44
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The SEALs use a 9mm because that's what they're told to use.

Wrong. The Seals aren't treated like regular grunts. They get to use whatever, and I repeat WHATEVER weapon they choose to use, in whatever caliber. I can also back that up if you're interested. They use the nine because they know where/how to place them, with more firepower per magazine.
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Old February 19, 2009, 12:40 PM   #45
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By all means, go ahead and try to back that up with cites from military/government sources; because what you're repeating a really, really common misconception about the SEALs, who are issues Sig M11 (9mm) or the H&K SOCOM in .45 ACP.
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Old February 19, 2009, 01:15 PM   #46
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Here you go. The clip talks about their flexibility to use the weapons of their choice, and the use of the nine (beginning at 2:55, I believe):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFw4tgB5RE4
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Old February 19, 2009, 01:46 PM   #47
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Protip: all that clip said was that the SEALs can pick any weapon from their "list of weapons". Their list of weapons only has two handguns on it, the Sig M11 and the H&K SOCOM. Also, all that guy said about the 9mm was "you won't think its ineffective when I shoot you with it", or something to that extent.

In the beginning, when they're talking about an operator choosing whatever he wants, what they mean is "we have X weapons that you're allowed to use, pick whatever you feel is necessary and fits the mission profile", not "pick whatever gun you want from all the guns on the market." As flexible as the SEALs are, they're still part of the military, and subject to the .mil rules on procurement and supply. They use a 9mm because 9mm and .45 ACP are the standardized cartridges, not because 124 grain ball round is the ultimate death ray.
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Old February 19, 2009, 01:49 PM   #48
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Irrelevant. They have a choice whether or not to use the nine, and they choose to use it. You said they were forced to use it. They aren't. THEY CHOOSE TO USE IT. Case closed.
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Old February 19, 2009, 01:53 PM   #49
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Wait, so because a 9mm pistol is the standard issue pistol for SEALs, that means that they choose to use the 9mm? They don't "pick" the 9mm any more than Joe Army "picks" his Beretta M9, it's called an "issue" handgun for a reason. The SOCOM is used for, I don't know, whenever the mission profile calls for a gun the size of a Colt Dragoon.
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Old February 19, 2009, 01:55 PM   #50
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The 9mm is "standard issue" for SEALs? Show me your evidence for that. EVIDENCE. As far as that documentary is concerned, there is no "standard issue" for SEALs.
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