The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > Law and Civil Rights

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old February 3, 2009, 05:29 PM   #1
jfinstrom
Junior Member
 
Join Date: February 3, 2009
Location: Tempe, AZ
Posts: 3
No Guns Allowed here!

I was thinking about starting up a blog or website to track both businesses that are anti-gun and businesses who are gun friendly. Does anyone know if such a thing already exists.

The point is to promote a gun friendly atmosphere and boycott the no guns allowed crowd. I realize it is a persons right to say I cant come in armed but at the same time it is my right to help them see the financial impact of such an error

Thanks
jfinstrom is offline  
Old February 3, 2009, 05:33 PM   #2
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 17,473
Interesting idea. How would you verify the claims of pro- or anti-gun?
__________________
Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza.
---
You do not HAVE a soul. You ARE a soul. You HAVE a body.
-----
He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose.
-Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old February 3, 2009, 05:43 PM   #3
jfinstrom
Junior Member
 
Join Date: February 3, 2009
Location: Tempe, AZ
Posts: 3
There are obviously some semantics to work out.

My thoughts would be submit a picture of their sign and basic contact information. We can call locations and ask what their policy is on customers coming in armed. Post can be tagged confirmed or unconfirmed. The picture thing would work well in blog format otherwise If I wrote an application it would take a day or so to do and all that could be worked in.. I would also provide a way to be removed if you decided to correct your errors....

The other concern would be moderation if such a thing took off. I would be happy to call and check on a light load but hundreds a day may become a challenge.
jfinstrom is offline  
Old February 3, 2009, 07:26 PM   #4
Mr Phil
Member
 
Join Date: January 23, 2009
Posts: 43
PM me about your idea and contact info I am working on something that this would be perfect with

Thanks
__________________
Don't bother running away ... you'll only die tired.
Mr Phil is offline  
Old February 3, 2009, 07:36 PM   #5
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 17,473
Quote:
I would also provide a way to be removed if you decided to correct your errors....
It would be interesting to advise the "anti" business' of their status and tell them that they can be removed by taking a different stance if they are so inclined. I wonder if any of them would care.

It's a pretty decent idea, IMO. Getting the word out would be trick.

Of course, in some places it's meaningless because the business has no right to ban CC in the first place.
__________________
Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza.
---
You do not HAVE a soul. You ARE a soul. You HAVE a body.
-----
He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose.
-Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old February 3, 2009, 08:15 PM   #6
Croz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 9, 2008
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 307
Quote:
Of course, in some places it's meaningless because the business has no right to ban CC in the first place
Doesn't really matter. Here in FLA, companies can't prevent you from carrying, but if they're putting up "NO GUNS" signs, I'd still prefer to take my business elsewhere.
Croz is offline  
Old February 3, 2009, 08:18 PM   #7
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 17,473
Quote:
I'd still prefer to take my business elsewhere.
True, as would I but in NY, at least my area, I have never seen a "no guns" sign in my entire life.
__________________
Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza.
---
You do not HAVE a soul. You ARE a soul. You HAVE a body.
-----
He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose.
-Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old February 3, 2009, 08:45 PM   #8
triggerhappy2006
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 19, 2006
Location: peoples republic of new york
Posts: 451
I live in NY too, oddly enough neither have I. Then again most of my co-workers, classmates, etc are astounded that I am carrying a tiny boot knife. "Holy crap where did you get one of those?!?!?" I am pretty sure some places have rules against it but most assume nobody has weapons.

A++ Idea on the website though.
__________________
"We make the voices go away"
triggerhappy2006 is offline  
Old February 3, 2009, 09:10 PM   #9
ds1973
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2000
Location: Grand Island, NY
Posts: 545
false premise

Quote:
I realize it is a persons right to say I cant come in armed but at the same time it is my right to help them see the financial impact of such an error
Actually, this line of thinking is part of the problem. First, allow me to define a "right" as a freedom of action. Why is it their right to keep you out of their premises if you are armed? How does being armed violate their property rights? By being armed, are you destroying their property somehow? Are you preventing them from doing what they wish with their property?

Now, what's the point of "right to carry" if everyone can decide to post "no guns" signs. There's no freedom to carry in that case. Your freedom to carry does not infringe on the business owners freedom to do business. They'd never even know you're carrying since its concealed.

Oh yeah, and most large companies have "site policies" regarding not being able to bring firearms onto work properties. Not sure about compliance in NY (I think it's high), but when I lived in Idaho, I know for a fact people kept firearms in their vehicles.
__________________
The first step is registration, the second step is confiscation, the final step is subjugation.

Last edited by ds1973; February 3, 2009 at 09:18 PM. Reason: Didn't put quote from OP in quotes
ds1973 is offline  
Old February 3, 2009, 10:18 PM   #10
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 10,609
Here's a thought...

See if you can find a business with a sign like this;
No Shirt
No Shoes
No Gun
No Service

Don't think you will, but good luck.

A grey area, with businesses, because they can be both a private owned place, and yet a public place.

I do actually support the business's right to set their store policy. They aren't infringing on me, because I don't have to go there. Unlike come govt buildings where by law I may have to go, which prohibit my bearing arms.

Your idea is a good one, but also consider all the businesses that may not post signs, but actively contribute to the anti-gun agenda. Do some reasearch, and I think you'll be surprised how many big corporations are on that list.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old February 3, 2009, 11:43 PM   #11
jfinstrom
Junior Member
 
Join Date: February 3, 2009
Location: Tempe, AZ
Posts: 3
I have taken some initial steps. I set up a blog @ http://gunfriendly.blogspot.com/ and a submission form @ http://spreadsheets.google.com/viewf...SMqSYgVrXCF-Pw

I will put it up on digg and do some other promotion to see what pops up. I will work on theming this and if support picks up putting it in a proper domain.
jfinstrom is offline  
Old February 4, 2009, 10:39 AM   #12
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,108
Some states have local gun forums and subforums about business issues. Might look for that.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is online now  
Old February 4, 2009, 11:12 AM   #13
Chuckusaret
Junior member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2008
Location: Florida
Posts: 708
Quote:
.........blog or website to track both businesses that are anti-gun and businesses who are gun friendly..............
Thats a great idea. Not only would it inform us of what business to boycott it might also save us a unecessary trip. Save some gas money to buy better things elsewhere
Chuckusaret is offline  
Old February 4, 2009, 11:38 AM   #14
Croz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 9, 2008
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 307
I agree the signs are rare, but I have seen them. Besides the unintentionally ironic ones posted at gun stores, I have seen them at 2 car dealerships and one at a doctor's office. They both stress "for the safety of our employees and customers, this is a gun free zone."

Until a BG decides to ignore the sign. Then safety's pretty much out the window.
Croz is offline  
Old February 4, 2009, 12:01 PM   #15
jaarond1
Junior Member
 
Join Date: January 21, 2009
Posts: 9
SwapGiant.com

I like the idea...just submited SwapGiant.com to your blog as a gun supporting site. It's a site dedicated to bartering/swapping and is getting nig very fast, especially among gun users.

Check it out and tell others about it for thier firearm ads and other things too.

http://www.swapgiant.com
jaarond1 is offline  
Old February 4, 2009, 12:04 PM   #16
Chuckusaret
Junior member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2008
Location: Florida
Posts: 708
Quote:
Until a BG decides to ignore the sign. Then safety's pretty much out the window.
Why would the bad guy obey the sign? The sign only restricts the good guy that has followed the laws of the land. If I were a BG I would carry out all my business at the places that have "No Guns" sign posted. Would be a safe place to rob, no guns except the BG's.
Chuckusaret is offline  
Old February 4, 2009, 01:34 PM   #17
Croz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 9, 2008
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 307
Quote:
Why would the bad guy obey the sign? The sign only restricts the good guy that has followed the laws of the land. If I were a BG I would carry out all my business at the places that have "No Guns" sign posted. Would be a safe place to rob, no guns except the BG's.
That's exactly what I meant, I just didn't say it well.
Croz is offline  
Old February 4, 2009, 01:45 PM   #18
#18indycolts
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 3, 2006
Location: Indpls
Posts: 1,159
just curious how you could attract the two together. Its like getting the pro & anti abortion crowd to go bowling...guns are a very touchy subject to some.
#18indycolts is offline  
Old February 4, 2009, 01:51 PM   #19
armsmaster270
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2008
Location: California
Posts: 1,924
It is a nice way to tell business owners its your right. But if you don't wan't my gun you will not get any of my money.
__________________
http://www.armsmaster.net-a.googlepages.com
http://s239.photobucket.com/albums/f...aster270/Guns/
Retired LE, M.P., Sr. M.P. Investigator F.B.I. Trained Rangemaster/Firearms Instructor & Armorer, Presently Forensic Document Examiner for D.H.S.
armsmaster270 is offline  
Old February 7, 2009, 01:12 AM   #20
DG45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 5, 2009
Posts: 904
This is an excellent thread because as some one mentioned, if your state law says you can carry a concealed weapon and you are licensed to do so, how can a private entity prevent you from doing so? There are certain places that my state law says I may NOT carry a gun, like onto a schoolyard, even with a CCW permit, which I have. There are different points of view on that, but I understand the intent of the law. But there are a few other establishments in my home town that are not on the list of places the state law mentions as gun free zones that have put one of those red circles with a gun in it crossed over and the words No Guns Allowed written on their doors. If I carried a gun onto their premises, have I broken a law? Or am I just somebody that they consider a social undesirable that they would rather not have in their place of business? (Hey, I'm for free enterprise. I fully suscribe to the belief that a business establishment has the right to refuse service to anyone (including me) at any time for any reason, except in cases of violation of someone elses civil rights.) But if I have a CCW permit from my state, and I take a gun into one of this places that are not mentioned in my states law but who say no guns allowed anyway, and they find out about it, have I actually broken a LAW?
DG45 is offline  
Old February 7, 2009, 09:22 AM   #21
Croz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 9, 2008
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 307
If their signs do not have the force of law, then you have not broken a law going in. They do have the right to ask you to leave, and you could be guilty of trespass if you do not leave after being asked.

At least, that's how my non-lawyer reading of the law in Florida works.
Croz is offline  
Old February 7, 2009, 10:48 AM   #22
Chuckusaret
Junior member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2008
Location: Florida
Posts: 708
I'm confused. I carry 99% of the time and I have made visits to stores that do have signs stating "No Guns Allowed" without a problem. How would the stores staff know I have CCW unless I told them or for some reason that they would know that I am armed, then they could ask that I leave. Would I leave, I doubt I would because I have broken no law.
Chuckusaret is offline  
Old February 7, 2009, 04:21 PM   #23
schmieg
Junior Member
 
Join Date: February 5, 2009
Posts: 4
Ohioans for Concealed Carry has done this for some time now with their "Do Not Patronize While Armed" database. You can access it from their home page at

http://www.OhioCCW.org/index.php

Contact Dan White or Jeff Garvas of OFCC and they can probably give you more information about the software and implementation.
schmieg is offline  
Old February 7, 2009, 04:25 PM   #24
schmieg
Junior Member
 
Join Date: February 5, 2009
Posts: 4
"I'm confused. I carry 99% of the time and I have made visits to stores that do have signs stating "No Guns Allowed" without a problem. How would the stores staff know I have CCW unless I told them or for some reason that they would know that I am armed, then they could ask that I leave. Would I leave, I doubt I would because I have broken no law."

Different states deal with this differently. In some states, the signs have no force of law and you must refuse to leave when asked before trespassing penalties apply. In other states, such as Ohio, the signs do have force of law. Knowingly entering a Criminal Protection Zone as we call them in Ohio is a 4th degree misdemeanor. The business must "conspicuously" post a sign indicating his wishes. The question becomes what is "conspicuous." Some business post tiny signs away from the door (one even posted it inside the exit door) and the question is whether that places the licensee on proper notice. So far, the police appear to have been reasonable on this issue.
schmieg is offline  
Old February 7, 2009, 06:51 PM   #25
dburkhead
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 10, 2008
Posts: 116
In Indiana, even signs saying "no guns" (unless they're on government owned property) have no legal force.

However, the owners or their proxies (which generally mean employees in the case of a business) can ask you to leave the premises for any reason. Failure to leave when asked is trespass and is illegal.
__________________
The award winning fantasy series "Heroes in Hell" returns this July with the new collection "Lawyers in Hell."
http://heroesinhell.wordpress.com/
Including a new story by David L. Burkhead
dburkhead is offline  
Reply

Tags
no guns allowed

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:05 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2013 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12929 seconds with 7 queries