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Old February 5, 2009, 10:22 PM   #51
Marty Hayes
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Best advice?

Read "In the Gravest Extreme" by Massad Ayoob.
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Old February 7, 2009, 05:06 PM   #52
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I would suggest to them to work through possible encounters in thier mind while going about their daily activities.

If I go to "A store", what would I do if "This" happens.

This process will allow them to have something of a general game plan in place if something should happen (Hopefully speeding up their reaction time), and it will open up new avenues in their thought process and decision making.
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Old February 7, 2009, 05:49 PM   #53
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First and foremost is read the owners manual and be very familiar with your firearm. Practice loading and unloading using snap caps, then go to the range and practice loading and unloading and firing with live rounds. Go with a friend and someone with some experience with firearms on your first trip to the range. I went with a US Navy veteran friend of mine.
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Old February 7, 2009, 06:54 PM   #54
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Be safe, practice, shoot well and protect yourself, but don't become a tactics and training know-it-all on some forum.
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Old February 7, 2009, 10:04 PM   #55
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I concur with everyone regarding safety, training, and responsibility...

However every new gun owner should buy a .22 gun or, better yet, a conversion kit. Then they should practice sight picture and trigger control. Repeat ad nauseum.
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Old February 7, 2009, 10:51 PM   #56
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Quote:
However every new gun owner should buy a .22 gun
So if I buy a .22, and practice, practice, practice, and then the BG comes in and I'm ready to go with my .40, I should expect the same feel, same kick (or lackthereof), same accuracy?

Not to mention a lot of people say .22 is not stopping power enough...

Last edited by gollbladder13; February 8, 2009 at 02:28 PM. Reason: removed sarcastic barg smiley
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Old February 8, 2009, 01:21 AM   #57
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# 1. Learn the safety rules about handling firearms.

#2. Get some really good training from qualified firearms instructors.

# 3. Practice. Practice. And practice some more with your firearms of choice until you're really, really good with them.

# 4. Plan ahead of trouble. Make "what if plans" to know what to do and when to do it. Review your plans frequently and often then re-vamp the plans.

# 5. Go practice some more.
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Old February 8, 2009, 10:42 AM   #58
Gaxicus
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Practice

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So if I buy a .22, and practice, practice, practice, and then the BG comes in and I'm ready to go with my .40, I should expect the same feel, same kick (or lackthereof), same accuracy?

Not to mention a lot of people say .22 is not stopping power enough...
Good point. However:

The biggest benefit that NEW people get from the range is firearm familiarity, firearm operation, muzzle discipline, problem diagnosis, trigger control, front sight operation, and marksmanship. In that order. All of which can be gained with a .22 much more cheaply than full power loads.

Recoil comfort and control is important though. I usually recommend a 357 revolver as a first handgun, especially if they spend a lot of time outdoors. They can shoot 38 all they want but the rule I make is that they shoot at least 1 full cyl of full power loads at the end of each range session.

I dont think the .22 thing would be too different from that as long as the .22 is similar in design to the full power gun.

To spend an hour shooting a full power gun would easily cost $100. A .22 of very similar design would cost $25 to shoot (with at least 1 clip of full power rounds at the end). That means the shooter can hit the range 4 times as often for the same money and the .22 would pay for itself in just a few trips to the range.

The shooter with 4 times as much range time, even if it is mostly with the .22, is going to be a better and more confident shooter as long as they finish their session with at least 1 clip of full power rounds. There is just no substitute for trigger time.

I, like many/most of you can go through a rediculous amount of expensive ammunition in one single session at the range.

Be honest, how many times have you not hit the range because you didnt want to spend a fortune. Im not poor by any stretch but $200 is $200 any way you look at it. When training up, Ill go through enough ammo to buy a gun a week. How many of us would rather have a few more guns if all we had to do was spend more time behind the plinker?

Accuracy can be incredible.

Excellent marksmanship training tool. Lots of fun too.

Hard to go wrong with a good .22 for practice

Last edited by Gaxicus; February 8, 2009 at 11:17 AM.
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Old February 8, 2009, 01:56 PM   #59
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Haha I stand corrected, and humbled
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Old February 8, 2009, 02:27 PM   #60
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BTW, where do you teach Gaxicus? Just curious.
I'm betting on the Internet.

We want credentials Mr. Guru...
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Old February 8, 2009, 02:57 PM   #61
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In no particular order (this is how it came out of my scattered head. Upon review I might re-prioritize these)

1. Safety safety safety

2. Practice regularly, seek excellent training (the best that one can afford)

3. It is a firearm, not the end all be all and is only one part of the self defense solution.

4. Learn and know local laws.

5. Retreat when one can as soon as one can.

6. Refuse to be a victim.

7. Be very aware of your environment and those around you.

8. Do everything possible to avoid trouble, but if and/or when it pays a visit, unleash the righteous monster within until trouble is "stopped".

9. Seek More excellent training.

10. Should balloon go up, it won't be stationary paper targets, it won't be like TV or the movies and it will probably be dark or low light conditions.

11. Run "what if" scenarios constantly (at home, work, in car, alone, with family or friends, parking lot, bank/ATM, etc)

12. Movement is your friend.

13. In a fight for your life, second place is not a viable option.
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Old February 8, 2009, 03:22 PM   #62
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Guru...... Pfft

Quote:
I'm betting on the Internet.

We want credentials Mr. Guru...
Sorry.

If what I post here makes no sense to you, telling you I am some kind of expert with certs and perks to prove it isnt going to make it any clearer or more true.

Ive been shooting a long time. You can probably tell that from posts in this thread or others. The longer I shoot and the more I talk to people, the more I realize how much there is that I dont know. The discussion in this thread has great participants with excellent credentials but I really didnt see anybody throwning them around.

Call it a curse of age that you become more keenly aware of your own ignorance. I think it starts with not having anything to prove. You will probably catch me eating crow in several threads on this forum where I was wrong or somebody just had a better idea.

Hey, if youre not afraid to be wrong, you arent afraid to learn......

Im not sure what you meant by "betting on the internet" though.

Last edited by Gaxicus; February 8, 2009 at 03:40 PM.
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Old February 8, 2009, 03:27 PM   #63
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Know what a gun will do and what a gun will not do. Know what false confidence is vs confidence with firearms. That means training and good training means getting off with the right start in the first place. Get involved with a really good firearms instructor who is not full of himself and is concerned with you and security minded. A professional.
Know a pistol is a pistol and a rifle is a rifle. There is no comparison.

Know that the criminal mindset is not your own mindset. You cannot change people. You will not change criminal behavior. Secure your home and make it safer. If you live in a bad neighborhood then move out of it. If you cannot then make it harder to break into it. Get a dog like a German shepherd Dog (GSD) Not the kind from the AKC people. Those breeds are by and large bred for looks and not for function for the most part. Go to a specialized breeder.
If you want a particular breed of dog other than GSDs than research the breed. Golden retrievers are good for pets and a soft handling bite not for predators.

Shotguns rule IMHO. Pistols are not on top of the list for home protection.
Rifles keep criminals off of your property.
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Old February 8, 2009, 04:09 PM   #64
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Quote:
Get a dog like a German shepherd Dog (GSD) Not the kind from the AKC people. Those breeds are by and large bred for looks and not for function for the most part. Go to a specialized breeder.
If you want a particular breed of dog other than GSDs than research the breed. Golden retrievers are good for pets and a soft handling bite not for predators.
All good advice. I especially like that you brought up dogs. I, like many, cant realistically keep a dog anyone would really be scared of but they dont have to be HSLD to have a big impact.

Even a small dog is great help for keeping your house alert or reading people at the door and the environment when going for a stroll. I have a scotty and my lady has a little shi tzu. While not exactly the manliest dogs to brag about on the gun board, they dont bark needlessly and you can really tell the difference in the bark when they really dont like something or feel threatened.

I cant imagine either of my dogs being very effective in actually combating a predator but they make it damn hard for them to get the element of surprise and they are going to have to deal with the barking and some biting. If time is everything in a bad situation, even little dogs can buy you some.

Besides, dogs just KFA in every way. Velocipuppies ATTACK!

Good post. Thanks

Last edited by Gaxicus; February 8, 2009 at 04:47 PM.
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Old February 10, 2009, 01:13 PM   #65
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There is lots of evidence to support what I am saying about pre-decision and resolve.
Sure, but that has nothing to do with "be a killer" or such. One can and does have plenty of resolve for self-preservation.
Quote:
The concept of result guides the building chains of execution until it reached.
AFAIK, the preferred result is to win the event. That concept does not require any of the hyper-aggressive stuff you seem to suggest. In fact, sometiems just the opposite might be indicated.
Quote:
You seem to focus on guilt. You refuse to say that you will kill a predator, only that you will shoot him, when you are very likely to kill him by shooting him. You only want to own the trigger, not the entire event. If you were a martial artist, you are stuck on the kick or the punch but not the fight. See what I mean yet?
I see what you mean, I just disagree with the presentation. I do not focus on guilt, I focus on surviving and winning. I don't refuse to say I will kill a predator, I refuse to say that I need to kill the predator. If he dies as a side-effect to my efforts, so be it, but if he lives that is fine also. It doesn't matter so long as the incident is resolved in my favor.
Quote:
Fights dont stop just because someone shoots a gun. Ask any cop who has seen it.
True, but the other side of that is one does not need to kill to stop the fight. One's goal is to stop the fight, period.
Quote:
After its over, you probably killed him. If you haven't come to terms with that before the act and made it part of the result from the beginning of your actions, guilt will likely eat you alive regardless of what you say now.
Sorry, but I've been doing this a long time and I've never seen anything to support those claims. In fact, there is quite a bit to counter them. You probably won't kill him, and while guilt is certainly present in some it is also not there in others.
Quote:
If you want to say the result you want to start the chain with is to shoot him,its not honest or complete because the fight may continue from there, involve other people, and he will likely die.
But you make an assumption that is not valid, IMO. You don't want the result to be to shoot him, you want the result to be that he goes away and quits bothering you. If that require shooting, fine, if it doesn't, that is fine also.
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Old February 10, 2009, 03:41 PM   #66
Gaxicus
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Good enough for the goose.

Quote:
I see what you mean, I just disagree with the presentation. I do not focus on guilt, I focus on surviving and winning. I don't refuse to say I will kill a predator, I refuse to say that I need to kill the predator. If he dies as a side-effect to my efforts, so be it, but if he lives that is fine also. It doesn't matter so long as the incident is resolved in my favor.

I dont think we will agree on this, although I'm not sure we are talking about the same thing.

I am looking for a very direct concept that really pushes a specific kind of person to actually face, head on, the issues they need to in order to be able to effective in a nasty violent situation.

If I am to characterize your objection, it would be "you dont have to turn them into a predator in order to do this" Is that a fair assessment?

I dont think I am turning them in to a predator.

You start with a person that just cant see themselves being violent, even to save their life. After all the conventional training, they just still cant see it.

Breaking through their irrationalizations about violence will not make an anti-violent, rule of law oriented, gazelle type hyper-agressive as you say, it will help them face the things in themselves that will likely cause hesitation, weak execution, and possible disarmament.

I am helping them face and make decisions about their role in the world when all the rules they live their life by are ignored by a predator. They dont end up liking violence. They have looked it square in the eye and have decided what they must do if faced with it.
  • They must be able to fight before flight, the predator is counting on flight or panic.
  • They need to be able to be hurt and still fight.
  • They need to be able to attack their attacker with force, intent, and relentless determination.
  • They need to be able to press an advantage to force a hasty retreat by the predator or do enough damage that the predator is incapable of further attack.
  • They need to draw and fire the weapon several times without hesitation once the decision is made that is justified. Even reload and repeat.
  • They need to be capable of killing because if they are using a firearm to defend themselves and they use it effectively, the predator will likely be dead.

Your turn sir.

Im not talking the average person, Im talking about the one described above. The training is over they have heard all of the legal and moral justifications but they still just cant see themselves being violent or pulling the trigger even once to defend themselves.

Their abhorrance of violence makes them ideal responsible citizens, but it also makes them ideal victims for a predator, and very likely to lose their gun to the predator. They are looking to you to change that.

You have been doing this a long time, tell us how you accomplish the above list of things in this kind of person.

My method was certainly scrutinized as not PC enough, not nice enough, even that it would turn normal people into predators.

While my method has been criticized by the PC crowd and the nice people, yours will likely be criticized by those who want to guarentee the highest chance of success for this kind of person.

Its easy enough to criticize, I challenge you to subject your method to criticism as I have done.

Im not afraid to be wrong here, if it has a higher chance of success, I will use it.

Last edited by Gaxicus; February 10, 2009 at 04:30 PM.
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Old February 10, 2009, 04:41 PM   #67
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Glax,

It doesnt take a trainer to see the flaws in your approach.

Awareness, honesty, and education are key components to firearm ownership. Prerequisites even.

Your approach may be effective in creating a psychological state in which your trainees possess the mad-dog-mean mentality that life and death situations require.

Therein lies the error... creating a psychological state that you've manufactued in them through the manipulation of their emotion to convince them that they are someone they are not.

This is not what should be fostered in a new defensive gun owner. It is promoting a mindset of bloodlust as opposed to thinking clearly. Confidence should come from their own self-honestly, oppenness, clarity of thought, and knowledge/education about their weapon, situation and capabilities.
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Old February 10, 2009, 05:08 PM   #68
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The best advice that I would give to any new gun owner would be to get out the range as much as possible!!
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Old February 10, 2009, 05:21 PM   #69
Gaxicus
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Mad dogs

Quote:
Your approach may be effective in creating a psychological state in which your trainees possess the mad-dog-mean mentality that life and death situations require.
You are missing it entirely. The mad dog stuff you are talking about is getting them to face to concept of violence way prior to any actual event.

It could be that I have been ineffective at explaining myself but it could also be that some people get hung up on the strong words and wont see anything else.

I am not the cobra kai instructor in the karate kid. Telling people to KILL EM ALL! or such nonsense.

Quote:
Therein lies the error... creating a psychological state that you've manufactued in them through the manipulation of their emotion to convince them that they are someone they are not.
Again, I dont think it possible to remanufacture their personality even with these strong words. The exercise is meant to get the people who have not faced the concept of violence and their role it, to do so with realism, honesty, acceptance, and resolve.

Quote:
It is promoting a mindset of bloodlust as opposed to thinking clearly.
I dont think you have read enough of this thread to be able to justify the statement that I am promoting bloodlust or that I train people to be mad dogs.

Remember the people that get this routine are the ones who, after all of the range time and discussion, say they still dont think they could use the gun to defend themselves.

The term is "predator killer", not just "killer" as you and others want to characterize it. Please ponder the difference for a few minutes before replying with another post like this.

The exercise is meant to get the person to try on the identity of someone who can kill a predator that attacks them and have a discussion of the differences in themselves. It identifies barriers in their chain of execution and allows them to be discussed.

What are the differences in the state of mind that this predator killer has than me?
Is it even ok to kill an attacking predator?
What is a predator?
What is the predator counting on me to do?
What must I do instead?
What state of mind must I have to do these things?
If I needed to, could I be a predator killer?

Ask yourself all of these questions and then tell me it made you into a bloodlusted mad dog.

I didnt think so.

Last edited by Gaxicus; February 10, 2009 at 06:08 PM.
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Old February 10, 2009, 05:35 PM   #70
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+1 for Atticum

Glaxicus,

I have to say sir, you have missed some points here.

If you re-read the threads here it's all about perspective. Again, this is advice for new shooters. Not someone going to Iraq.

Yes, there is a "mindset" that is good to develop for more experienced concealed carry holders but that's a whole different thread. But I would say this line of thought as you have proposed may be a bit "over the top" for even such a topic thread.

Atticum, I feel is right on the nose with their comments about your posting.

Again, your wordage and intent and intense perspective is a bit off. Using the killer and killing and to kill and on and on... I would say this: I have read over and over from novice to experienced shooters commenting on your postings. I can't recall seeing one that see's what you are trying to say.

I don't think it's because of what your not saying or even how you think you are saying it.... it's the intensity, the overkill, the over the top message you are sending that has me questioning your post.

Can a moderator lock this thread. It's not an appropriate thread for new gun owners. I mean it's meant to give advice to new gun owners? It's getting lost in all this .... BS
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Old February 10, 2009, 05:54 PM   #71
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Quote:
Yes, there is a "mindset" that is good to develop for more experienced concealed carry holders but that's a whole different thread.
Here is a quote of the first sentence of the thread, notice the term "defensive firearms".

"We probably all get questions or even help train people new to firearms or those new to defensive firearms. "

Quote:
Can a moderator lock this thread. It's not an appropriate thread for new gun owners. I mean it's meant to give advice to new gun owners? It's getting lost in all this .... BS
Wow. I was wondering when someone that thinks they know what is best for everyone would call for the censorship of something they dont agree with, understand, or have probably not read in its entirety.

The post is not for new gun or defensive gun owners, its for the people that get called upon for training or advice.

The discussion in this thread is excellent. Anyone exposed to any of the training approaches discussed here will get to see counterpoints to it. Great stuff. I have picked up some new things to think about and I think others have too.

There have been, and continue to be, highly qualified people posting to this discussion. If they are commenting on it, its probably worth reading.

You are the newest person to post to this thread, the one whe seems to undestand it the least, and the first to call for its censorship. That doesnt bother a person like you in the slightest does it?

Last edited by Gaxicus; February 10, 2009 at 06:13 PM.
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Old February 10, 2009, 06:08 PM   #72
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I suspect that the main disagreement in this thread is with the presentation of method rather than, or at least more than, the method itself.

There is a distinct psychological change is a person between 2 seconds before they are required to use deadly force and the moment they actually DO use that force.

I have no doubt that there are people who carry a gun for SD and who would stand there pointing it at a BG until said BG walks right up and takes the gun, just like we see in the movies.

I also have no doubt that a good instructor will try to make their students aware of that weakness if they see it.
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Old February 10, 2009, 06:11 PM   #73
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Clarity

Quote:
I suspect that the main disagreement in this thread is with the presentation of method rather than, or at least more than, the method itself.

There is a distinct psychological change is a person between 2 seconds before they are required to use deadly force and the moment they actually DO use that force.

I have no doubt that there are people who carry a gun for SD and who would stand there pointing it at a BG until said BG walks right up and takes the gun, just like we see in the movies.

I also have no doubt that a good instructor will try to make their students aware of that weakness if they see it.
Nailed it. Thank you.
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Old February 10, 2009, 06:12 PM   #74
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Glaxicus,

Censorship? Hmm, I gave my reason for locking IMO a useless thread. Ironically, you started this thread and your first post was very good. I had high hopes to "teach" new gun owners something...

But you sir.

Your immediate second post is a totally different story.

Re-read your own first post


"The best advice we can give to new gun owners

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

We probably all get questions or even help train people new to firearms or those new to defensive firearms. I've heard people offer some bad, some useless, but mixed in there is usually some really good stuff.

In what could be a very useful thread to all of us and the lucky new gun owner that comes this way, lets put some of it down in print."



Now, look at all the useless post you have responded to and have responded to you. To what end?? This is not teaching.

There has been several direct question to your credentials. I see you have none. That's not bad? I guess... Experience does count for something but it's plainly painfully obvious you have none.

The internet is a great tool but one that can be used badly. I say sir... you are on that end of the spectrum. You have highjacked your own thread and from a possibly good one to a very warped one indeed.
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Old February 10, 2009, 06:26 PM   #75
Gaxicus
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Quote:
I gave my reason for locking IMO a useless thread.
And that opinion of yours is enough in your mind to lock it to those who are, or might in the future, participate in it.

Hey! Just move on to something else, not useful to you, why are you still here?

Quote:
The internet is a great tool but one that can be used badly. I say sir... you are on that end of the spectrum. You have highjacked your own thread and from a possibly good one to a very warped one indeed.
I hijacked my own thread...... Astounding logic there. You say this, of course, because you found it useless to what you expected to find here. The internet is not yours to judge. Dont like it, move along.


Quote:
Now, look at all the useless post you have responded to and have responded to you. To what end?? This is not teaching.
To what end? Its what we were discussing before you got here.

Our exchange might be the most useless hijacking of the thread and I dont intend to continue making that mistake. You didnt like it, just move along.

Last edited by Gaxicus; February 10, 2009 at 06:32 PM.
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