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Old February 3, 2009, 08:36 PM   #26
Gaxicus
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Shoot, fight, kill etc.

I love the Shaw quote. Smart.

It's not that I'm so smart, it's just that I stay with problems longer. - Albert Einstein

I use that one when someone accuses me of beating a dead horse. (I figured I'd give it a shot on the whole rapist beating thing )

Ill make it quick and simple on what the lady did to the rapist in the story.

He took his life and hers in his hands when he attacked her. If she goes into a blind rage and kills him, its on him. She is no professional rape victim either. I dont think it is her that needs to be held to a higher standard here.

I don't condone it, but I understand.

On the other stuff:

Usually the part where a person says "I just cant see my self shooting another human being no matter what." is after the legal stuff has been discussed or when everyone is leaving from the range.

This is the point at which I get the pucker about that gun of theirs being used on them and/or the predators next victim. This is the most difficult part of advising people about defensive firearms for me.

I have advised martial arts classes to build confidence or as a replacement for the firearm, pepper spray, even offered to find a buyer for their gun. You could say that I am a bit hung up on it. I think with good reason.

I also believe very strongly in law abiding citizen gun ownership. I find myself conflicted because while it may be true that some people shouldn't own guns, I don't think it is those that really, really don't think like a criminal.

Most of the people who get the "Predator Killer" routine are people that just simply haven't contemplated violence on either end of it at all. God bless them but they make great victims for predators.

What they want is to be safe. They bought the gun to feel safe. The thought of actually using violence to protect themselves is just something they haven't got their head around at all. I am certainly not saying they are stupid. They are usually quite the opposite, they often pride themselves on their abhorrence of violence, but they just arent realistic about it at all. All of the rules that they live their life by, their ethics, philosophy, etc are useless when being attacked. This is also why so many people vote for gun control.

People who don't think like criminals are the folks who really should have the guns in the first place. My conflict lies in that their ignorance of violence makes them dangerous. That gun is going to end up in the hands of their attacker.

I use words like Kill, Attack, Predator because they are ugly and not easily talked around or dodged. My goal is to make them face both sides of the concept of violence and its consequences. To them, From them.

I dont think you can dismiss KILL as an incidental side effect to using a gun to stop an attack. Carry guns are very unlikely to be manstoppers in the classical sense. Kill is what can happen to them, it is what is very likely to happen to their attacker but more it is a concept they need to explore morally, legally, and intellectually.

Killing happens. Our judicial system kills, There are laws that allow our government and its employees to kill. Why? Is it a necessary part of a civilized society? Is killing murder? However you answer these questions you must answer before carrying a gun.

Killing is the ultimate extent and undeniable risk of violence. Defensive gun owners of all people should not dodge this fact but face it head on.

Ignorance begets fear

Look at the reaction to that word in my post. Are we dodging? I think maybe.

Thanks again. Its been a pleasure.

Last edited by Gaxicus; February 3, 2009 at 09:03 PM.
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Old February 3, 2009, 08:57 PM   #27
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Best Advice

It's Always loaded. Even when it's not.
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Old February 3, 2009, 09:17 PM   #28
Gaxicus
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

Quote:
It's Always loaded. Even when it's not.
Almost lost some toes to that once a long time ago. Im embarrassed about it because I have been around firearms my whole life. I bring it up because if it can happen to me, it can happen to you.

Consistent gun handling is critical. Every time a firearm leaves your hand, open it, check it first. When a gun goes in to your hand, open it, check it first thing.

EVERY TIME! Insist on it from the people around you EVERY TIME!

Still got 10 but barely.

Last edited by Gaxicus; February 3, 2009 at 10:03 PM.
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Old February 4, 2009, 12:09 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pax
A domestic cat is sweet and cuddly and non-threatening. Sure, it's capable of killing, if killing is called for. But it's not primarily a killer. That's not its identity. Its central identity is non-threatening; the claws only come out when threatened and the purpose is to get away from the attacker.
I get the point, but I have to point out that in my personal experience with domesticated cats, they will kill everything that they have the capability of killing. I think of cats as killers. They are one of the most violent creatures that God made. If you have a fish tank, they'll go after the fish. If you have a bird feeder, or just birds in your environment, then they will go after the birds. It comes in great handy when you have a mouse or rat or mole problem. The only thing that a cat will not kill (maybe with a few exceptions that I am not aware of) is kittens, and anything that it is incapable of killing.

I have no idea how cats have escaped being labeled as violent creatures. They have somehow gained the "cuddly" image.

Not trying to take anything away from your post, I'm just saying.
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Old February 4, 2009, 01:03 AM   #30
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Most of them are buying a firearm because of fear. You can just see it written all over them. This ditty is what I tell them to get out of the fear mindset.

It sounds a bit cheesy but it really pushes the right buttons. Ill spare you the intro and get right to the heart of it.


Say it to yourself.

............................................................


Hey thanks. Its often very difficult to get people to face their own ability to fight, keep fighting, and survive. Many are afraid of their own power.

I have been working on this little story for a while. I never tell it the same way twice. You really have to read your audience before associating the word "killer" with what a person thinks of themself.


.........................................................

If you ever attended a woman's self defense class you would be shocked at the things retired police officers tell them in order to get them out of prey mode.
The rapist had already victimized other women before he attacked her, he had practice. She took three knife wounds in the struggle but she survived because she kept fighting. He is rotting in jail with a colostomy bag or something like that.

..............................................................................





If you and PAX have a problem with that, take your popcorn to a victim recovery group and shut up and listen.



.......................................................................


Scared panicky people with guns, even at a range are very dangerous and prone to mistakes. Training with a firearm should start with dealing with all of that fear.

............................................


Most new defensive gun owners, Yes I do. Fidgeting, very little eye contact if any, jumpiness, extremely fast and start stop speech pattern. The big test for me is watching them load the gun in the range stall. Shaking hands, dropping rounds, bad muzzle discipline.


I have to ask , Why are they nervous ?

Did you do your talking before they hit the range.

I do not carry but after reading this I may start . Why you may ask ....you will not like my answer . Hindsight is almost always better. Maybe re-read what you posted after a while.

Last edited by noyes; February 4, 2009 at 11:44 AM.
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Old February 4, 2009, 01:12 AM   #31
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Cats are most assuredly killers. I like it when someone says that people are the only animal that kills for pleasure. I say; "Ever watch a cat?" They are cute to us at 10 to 20 times their size and weight. Ask a mouse how cute a cat is. It's perception all right, just like squirles and rats.

Glax has it right, and wrong. Your thinking it, and even teaching it, is one thing. Talking about it on the internet is another. It sounds as if you are a professional instructor. If this is true, expressing your approach on the "killer" mentality has damaged you and every one of your students, past and present. Not saying you are wrong, but it could look bad in court, even to have been trained by one espousing this view. You can take this risk for yourself, but for others?

On the other hand, I applaud your bravado. Mealy mouthed capitulation to the outright corruption of language by the liberals has had me ****** for well over a decade. We walk on egg shells for these two bit loosers, who can't win an argument without re-definition of every word in the book. You have done a rare thing, said what you mean. This kind of taking back of our language is much needed, and quite necessary if we are going to ever win the culture war we are engaged in. I am just glad I have never studied under you, that this entire thread may be used against me one day.

The "cornered cat" site is by far one of the best I have ever seen. I just sent it to everyone on my list and will expect it to go much further than that. Thank you Pax.
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Old February 4, 2009, 01:21 AM   #32
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...

1. When you are in a indoor range, don't be afraid of the loud "bang"!
2. Treat your gun as if they are LOADED at all time.
3. Experience=Knowledge=Confidence
4. Don't point that darn thing at ANYONE!
5. Attend an intro course!!!
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Old February 4, 2009, 08:34 AM   #33
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Don't worry so much about concealing your .44 mag that you can't extract it from your underware in time for it to be useful. If you really need deep concealment fine...but keep a BUG (LCP or similar gun) that you can get to in a hurry.

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Old February 4, 2009, 11:56 AM   #34
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Killing versus Stopping

To follow the "kitty" lne, it is obvious that we are *****-footing around with politically correct wording. The "correct" way to state our intentions is to say that we only shoot to stop the predator, not to kill him/her. To state our intent to kill brings us very close to an admission of a potential crime in the eyes of our justice system.

I believe that any reasonable person with a minimum of firearms training fully understands that shooting someone in the body regions required to stop an attack has a high probability of also killing the attacker. That reasonable person would have to step very carefully when dealing with an experienced prosecutor in court. Otherwise, he will be led to agreeing the two words, stop and kill, are interchangeable in terms of a defensive shooting.

In our modern world, there are certain buzz words that evoke immediate negative reactions. While the word sex is no longer a negative word - the word rape instantaneously evokes negative reaction. The same relationship is true for stopping versus killing when dealing with intent.

My advice for the new gunowner:

Once you learn the mechaniical, physical, and legal areas of how and when to use your gun in self-defense, learn the proper language required to defend your actions if you have to use that gun. "I am not a predator killer - I strive to be a predator stopper!"
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Old February 4, 2009, 12:28 PM   #35
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You have to shoot to stop an attacker. That being said, you should expect him to die if you do your job. You should be comfortable with the concept of killing somebody before you carry.

Gaxicus' theory of making new gun owners comfortable thinking and talking of the consequences of their actions has merit. We are splitting hairs if we talk of the difference of "being a killer" or "mentally prepared to become a killer". I think the concept goes far beyond hesitation to pull the trigger. sometimes self defense requires a level of offense. A person truly interested in self defense should be able to find the appropriate level of aggression to take the offense in the situation dictates.

A quick example, if you are unarmed and somebody were to try to shoot you, only to have a malfunction, you need to be capable to launch an offense, close distance, and defeat your opponent before they clear their weapon.

The name of the gamer is mental preparedness. Whatever words catchphrases of slogans gets a person there is fine. as long as they get there.
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Old February 4, 2009, 01:04 PM   #36
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Quote:
I use words like Kill, Attack, Predator because they are ugly and not easily talked around or dodged.
The problem is that they are also not at all accurate for self defense purposes. We don't attack, we defend ourselves. We don't try to kill anyone, we try to get them to stop creating a problem for us. We are not predators preying on others, we are simply avoiding being prey ourselves. My $.02.
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Old February 4, 2009, 01:23 PM   #37
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Whats the root word in counterattack?

Fighting back is still fighting, you have to be a fighter.

Running is always a valid option, but sometimes it is not what the situation calls for.

Can anybody here really tell me that they think drawing a gun and shooting somebody is not attacking them? The justification for the attack may be the preservation of self or others, but it is still an attack.

Heck, even a predator is just trying to save himself . . . from hunger.
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Old February 4, 2009, 03:35 PM   #38
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Scared of anyone I gave this advice to?

Quote:
I have to ask , Why are they nervous ?

Did you do your talking before they hit the range.

I do not carry but after reading this I may start . Why you may ask ....you will not like my answer . Hindsight is almost always better. Maybe re-read what you posted after a while.
The speech is for the people who say, after everything has been gone over, "I just can see me shooting another human being no matter what".

There they are with a new shiny gun that will likely end up in the hands of a predator if they are chosen as a victim.

What do you do? Try and make the act of shooting someone to save their life into some warm fuzzy game that really wont kill anyone? I don't think so.

The fact that they don't think like a criminal and the concept of engaging in violence, even to protect themselves, is so alien, makes them a perfect person to own a gun but totally unprepared to use it for defensive purposes.

If they are there to learn how to use the gun for defensive purposes, you need to put the guns away and talk about violence with naked truth. It starts them on the process of coming to terms with their own ability to endure and engage in violence. This process takes longer than any shooting session or class but it must be started or their gun could easily end up in the hands of a predator.

The reason they are scared? They are holding a gun. That can be a big deal to law abiding, non-violent, play by the rules, citizens. I believe that the answer to that question is ignorance as always. Ignorance not of the gun, but of themselves and their role in the world when the rules that they live by are ignored by others.

I am not molding minds of mush here. They dont turn into jumpy trigger happy thugs. Quite the opposite. As they actually face this, they become calmer, less jumpy, more settled and confident, or they realize that they should not carry a gun. Either way, it was a good outcome.

As for re-reading? Sure. They are things I would write differently. I would use different words or describe something from a different angle but the message would be the same.
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Old February 4, 2009, 03:45 PM   #39
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Quote:
Can anybody here really tell me that they think drawing a gun and shooting somebody is not attacking them? The justification for the attack may be the preservation of self or others, but it is still an attack.
So the U.S. troops attacked the Japanese troops at Pearl Harbor?
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Old February 4, 2009, 04:36 PM   #40
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The first amendment in a second amendment forum.

This thread may be a perfect example of why the first amendment came before the second.

Just about everyone likely to read this is a vehement 2nd amendment defender. I guess that is why it came as a shock to me how many times I was told to (in so many words) tone it down, use different words, you cant say that, stop giving the gungrabbers or lawyers fodder etc.

I heard it but I dont agree. I dont agree with limiting the second amendment to sporting rifles, shotguns, or other more politically correct erosions. Why would so many here call to do the same to our first amendment?

This is a public discussion where people exchange ideas. Yes, I could be sued. Yes, it could give fodder to gungrabbers. Yes, I might offend someone. No, I will not sacrifice the first amendment to please any of these people.

This thread evolved, as many others do, into a very informative discussion where important concepts were laid bare for all to see. Sometimes that isn't pretty but it is for betterment of all of us that it occur.

The bastards are are after talk radio, fox news, the internet, anywhere where they cannot control the flow and slant of information and discussion.

What good are any of these things if they dumb down and acquiesce to what the bastards want. They have readers, viewers, listeners, members, because they say things that people are interested and believe in. Stifle or dumb down their voice and the audience goes away, leaving an even more silent majority, destined to be a silent minority, without a means to spread its message.

Let them sue, let them demagogue, let them call me names, I wont voluntarily do anything to help the bastards win. Will you?

Im not saying be reckless. If you can say what you mean without being sued, offering fodder for the gungrabbers, etc. do so. If you cant say what you mean without doing so, say it anyway, and say it loud.

Last edited by Gaxicus; February 4, 2009 at 04:59 PM.
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Old February 4, 2009, 04:52 PM   #41
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For the person who considers the legal ramifications of self-defense, one can have appropriate mindset but be aware that if your 'good' shoot is seen as not so good (or ambiguous - which is why you are in court) - your utterances can sway a jury. It can also impact the penalty given to your attacker.

BTW, where do you teach Gaxicus? Just curious.
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Old February 4, 2009, 05:14 PM   #42
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Weighing in..

Advice to new gun owners: Keep your finger out of the trigger guard, and don't buy a weapon that requires a trigger pull to field strip.

And now, because I can't resist this juicy debate:
I think, should you need to draw your weapon, that you're trying to stop the situation. If the appearance of your weapon ends the conflict, then you're done.

In a situation where there are three attackers: if shooting one makes the other two turn tail and run, you're good. The attack has been stopped. If you miss your shot, and all three turn tail and run, you're good. The attack has been stopped. I won't tell Gaxicus or anybody else what they should want, but that's what I want. I only want to stop the attack and preserve my safety.

Practicing shooting to stop means that you interrupt a bad guy's CNS or circulatory system (if you shoot.) But the goal isn't to kill; at least not for me. If the bad guy grabs the bullet out of the air with tongs and says "You know, I do believe that I don't wish to continue" then that's good--no need to be a predator killer.
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Old February 4, 2009, 05:16 PM   #43
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Quote:
The problem is that they are also not at all accurate for self defense purposes. We don't attack, we defend ourselves. We don't try to kill anyone, we try to get them to stop creating a problem for us. We are not predators preying on others, we are simply avoiding being prey ourselves. My $.02.
I think you are missing the point, its probably my fault, but ( thanks to all of the discussion) I am getting a little better at explaining what i mean by all this.

When you punch, kick, scratch, etc., you are attacking, in self defense or not, all of the above will be more effective and forcefull if the person doing it is mentally prepared to attack. They need to be more than OK with it, they need to be resolved to it. They are already likely to be surprised and physically outmatched, why stack the odds even farther in the predators favor by adding hesitation and lack of force to the defender.

Killing is very likely to be the result if a defender rolls 4 rounds into an attackers chest. I believe that should be discussed in naked terms to allow the defender to be OK, and then resolved to it. Its that, or the gun ends up in the criminals hands in my view. They are much more likely to hesitate and miss without this mental resolution. Not something I can sleep well with.

A predator is what they are. They are not hungry homeless people who, through no fault of their own, are poor. They are predators. Chances are better you are the 5th or 6th person he has done this to and he is part of the drug problem or is a pervert. They are attacking you, you don't have time to sort out why, they are attacking you, therefore they are a predator.

Simple, pre-thought-out concepts that will increase effectiveness, reduce hesitation, and decrease the odds that the predator will end up with the defenders weapon.

Last edited by Gaxicus; February 4, 2009 at 06:17 PM.
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Old February 4, 2009, 06:16 PM   #44
Gaxicus
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Legal.

Quote:
For the person who considers the legal ramifications of self-defense, one can have appropriate mindset but be aware that if your 'good' shoot is seen as not so good (or ambiguous - which is why you are in court) - your utterances can sway a jury. It can also impact the penalty given to your attacker.

BTW, where do you teach Gaxicus? Just curious.
The discussion is what I am here for, not to solicit any business, favors, or otherwise. For the very reasons you stated above, I am not going to disclose personal information. I'm not wussing out, or meaning to snub anyone, I think everything you said above has merit and I take it seriously. I would rather speak my mind and remain anonymous than water everything down and make the discussion PC or bland.

The following is not really a reason but an observation:

When people talk about their personal credentials it often turns into a (please pardon the term) "penis waving contest" and everything goes down hill quick from there. Any statements I make here should stand on their own. Good or bad.

If someone wants me to contact them in the real world, they should leave private message or a link to their real world address as you and many of you have in your signature. I may have, or choose to sign in with, a "real world" account but I am not sure what the point would be in going "real world" with this account.

Again, not a snub or wussing out, just practical and real reasons.

A big thank you to everyone that took/takes the time to contribute to the thread and the forum in general.

Last edited by Gaxicus; February 4, 2009 at 06:27 PM.
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Old February 4, 2009, 08:04 PM   #45
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Quote:
I heard it but I dont agree. I dont agree with limiting the second amendment to sporting rifles, shotguns, or other more politically correct erosions. Why would so many here call to do the same to our first amendment?
Wait a minute...A couple of important points. The 1st Amendment has absolutely no bearing on personal exchanges, particularly on the internet. Second, nobody has said you couldn't say what you want, they have siad that they disagree with what you are saying and they have said why. Don't they get the same free speech consideration you are asking for? Lots of folks suggesting the way you are phrasing things is counterproductive and in some cases incorrect is not a 1st Amendment issue at all.
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Old February 4, 2009, 08:10 PM   #46
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Quote:
When you punch, kick, scratch, etc., you are attacking, in self defense or not, all of the above will be more effective and forcefull if the person doing it is mentally prepared to attack.
AFAIK, there is nothing to support that idea. In fact, given that self-preservation is one of the strongest drives out there, it seems doubtful that they will defend better or stronger by trying to fool themselves that they are attacking rather than defending.
Quote:
Killing is very likely to be the result if a defender rolls 4 rounds into an attackers chest.
So? Thta is not why you are shooting him. You are shooting him to make him stop bothering you. If he dies, he dies, but that is of no concern to why you act.
Quote:
They are much more likely to hesitate and miss without this mental resolution.
Again, I don't think there is anything that would bear that out, and a lot suggests otherwise.
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Old February 4, 2009, 08:54 PM   #47
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Every owner of a gun needs to be aware of the safety rules associated with handling a firearm.

Also, I agree with others who have advised that new gun owners learn everything they can about the firearms that they own. I would specifically indicate ballistics. At least a rough idea of where the bullet is going and how it will travel is an important part of owning and using firearms. Also important is the knowledge of strengths and weaknesses, applications and capabilities of the firearms that they own.

On a different note, every new gun owner needs a good knowledge of the second amendment and what it means to own a firearm and the measures put into place to protect their right to own firearms. We're all in this together.
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Old February 4, 2009, 10:00 PM   #48
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Intent, State of Mind, Guilt

Quote:
AFAIK, there is nothing to support that idea. In fact, given that self-preservation is one of the strongest drives out there, it seems doubtful that they will defend better or stronger by trying to fool themselves that they are attacking rather than defending.

There is lots of evidence to support what I am saying about pre-decision and resolve.

The US Military, Law Enforcement, Martial Artist, and even Golfers train in very specific ways to clear and reinforce the mental path to execution.

They take the entire chain of execution from thought to result and pre-make every decision along every step in the chain until the full and complete result is achieved.

An example many of us can probably relate to:

Mentally, golfers dont swing the club, they hit the ball to where they want it to stop. The final result is part of the mental decision to start the chain of events and involved in every step along the way.

Martial Artists dont just kick, punch, or throw, They defeat their opponent. The decision and resolve to defeat their opponent is present during every link in every chain of execution. Boxers and UFC fighters rely on this to maintain strategy while they are being pummeled. Intent starts with result.

The concept of result guides the building chains of execution until it reached.

Thats what I am talking about here but I am not sure you are.

I don't believe the chain of execution will be the same up to the point of opening fire for the reasons I described above but, for the sake of this discussion, lets assume everything up to the point where you open fire is the same.

You seem to focus on guilt. You refuse to say that you will kill a predator, only that you will shoot him, when you are very likely to kill him by shooting him. You only want to own the trigger, not the entire event. If you were a martial artist, you are stuck on the kick or the punch but not the fight. See what I mean yet?

This is a potential disconnect in the mental path of execution because the result is not complete enough to be able to guide the building chain of execution. Fights dont stop just because someone shoots a gun. Ask any cop who has seen it.

You only want to accept and intend up to where you point the gun, pull the trigger, and feel the recoil.

The chain of events doesn't stop there however. Blood and gore, screaming, unnatural facial and body positions, and even nothing. All of which are huge things that can stay with you for a long time. These huge things can very easily break the chain of execution.

I mentioned that some of those things can stay with you for a long time. After its over, you probably killed him. If you haven't come to terms with that before the act and made it part of the result from the beginning of your actions, guilt will likely eat you alive regardless of what you say now. "What he hell was I thinking?!?!"

As I said before, chain of execution starts with the result. If you can start with an honest and complete result, it will likely guide the chain as it builds its way unbroken to the result. A result you know you can live with.

If you want to say the result you want to start the chain with is to shoot him,its not honest or complete because the fight may continue from there, involve other people, and he will likely die.

If it makes no sense to you, I am sorry.

It might take a competitive boxing or martial arts class for a few years to understand what I mean because Im running out of ideas in explaining it. Honestly, I did my best.

Any competitive martial artists or boxers out there?

Last edited by Gaxicus; February 5, 2009 at 01:55 PM.
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Old February 4, 2009, 11:22 PM   #49
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My advise to people new to firearms is simple.

When it comes to the legal stuff, don't listen to me or people like me. Look it up for yourself. We might be able to point you in the right direction, but don't believe it until you see it in black and white.

When it comes to the gun stuff, shoot the gun until you are 100% comfortable and confident, both in the weapon and your abilities to use the weapon.
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A hit with a .45 ACP beats a hit with a .22 LR everytime. A hit with a .22 LR beats a miss with a .50 BMG everytime.
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Old February 5, 2009, 05:24 PM   #50
Deet
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Join Date: October 12, 2008
Location: INDIANA
Posts: 191
I believe in stopping the threat with any and all means at my disposal. I may end up killing them thru my self defense measures, but I am only trying to stop them, not killing them. I firmly believe in gun control, when things get out of control, I want to be the one with the gun.
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