The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old February 3, 2009, 12:12 PM   #26
cjw3cma
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 9, 2007
Location: Chiloquin, OR
Posts: 217
Happened to me years ago...............

Back in the early 70's while living in northern San Diego county (Oceanside). It was about 10pm or so and my two younger brothers were out in the garage packing up the van as my brother was getting ready to head up to UCLA. My 2 daughters were asleep but my wife and my sister-in-law were in the family room watching TV. 2 members of a Mexican motorcycle gang entered the garage and began pushing my brothers around. My little brother ran into the house to warn me and the 2 "idiots" followed him into my home where they found me pointing my .357 revolver (with its 6" barrel) directly at their torso yelling at them to stop and don't move because if they did I would pull the trigger. My wife called the police and for what seemed like an eternity I held them at gun point until the police arrived - actually less than 5 minutes. The officers who came to the house 1 of them I went to high school with and the other I knew from college. They arrested the "idiots" and had to pry my fingers off of the trigger.

If anything like that were to ever happen to me again I do not think that I would hold them at gun point - they get into my house and I assume that deadly force is required to protect my loved ones. Inside the house they are shot / outside the house depending on their actions they either can run away or if they make a threatening move - I shoot to protect.
__________________
The Constitution shall never be construed … to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms. – Samuel Adams
cjw3cma is offline  
Old February 3, 2009, 04:09 PM   #27
OldMarksman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 1,839
From hogdogs:

Quote:
HOLD 'EM!!! In florida you can hold a person in the commission of a "violent felony" which I am positive is any case where I could feel my life and safety were at risk. I am legally allowed to use any level of force to hold the suspect. when they initially submit I will block the exit and if they try to flee they are coming at me thus lethal force to protect myself may be used and it is not shooting a fleeing BG...

Coupla assumptions there....

Everyone I have ever known, or directly known of, who has gotten into trouble with respect to contractual, legal, and/or regulatory compliance had been supremely confident that he would be able to justify his actions completely. Most, if not all, had been completely convinced that they had been doing the right thing.

Things didn't work out exactly the way they had expected.

I think these are the relevant portions of the law--don't rely on that or on a lay interpretaton:

Quote:
776.05 Law enforcement officers; use of force in making an arrest.--A law enforcement officer, or any person whom the officer has summoned or directed to assist him or her, need not retreat or desist from efforts to make a lawful arrest because of resistance or threatened resistance to the arrest. The officer is justified in the use of any force:

(1) Which he or she reasonably believes to be necessary to defend himself or herself or another from bodily harm while making the arrest;

(2) When necessarily committed in retaking felons who have escaped; or

(3) When necessarily committed in arresting felons fleeing from justice. However, this subsection shall not constitute a defense in any civil action for damages brought for the wrongful use of deadly force unless the use of deadly force was necessary to prevent the arrest from being defeated by such flight and, when feasible, some warning had been given, and:

(a) The officer reasonably believes that the fleeing felon poses a threat of death or serious physical harm to the officer or others; or

(b) The officer reasonably believes that the fleeing felon has committed a crime involving the infliction or threatened infliction of serious physical harm to another person.

776.07 Use of force to prevent escape.--

(1) A law enforcement officer or other person who has an arrested person in his or her custody is justified in the use of any force which he or she reasonably believes to be necessary to prevent the escape of the arrested person from custody.
Emphasis added. Note the influence of Garner v. Tennessee.

Without consulting an experienced Florida trial attorney, I would not feel comfortable using the threat of deadly force to hold anyone, unless it were clearly immediately necessary to protect loss of life.

There's much to lose, and in my mind, little to gain.

I don't carry a badge, I am not indemnified, authorized, or paid by a county or municipality to enforce laws, and I haven't been trained in how to make an arrest.

I have a friend who is a former police officer who has a concealed carry permit. In his words, his gun will only come out when he is about to die.
OldMarksman is offline  
Old February 3, 2009, 05:33 PM   #28
Milspec
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 19, 2008
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 117
When I was pulling Post Staff Duty Officer at Fort Riley I ran across a drunk carving up a picnic table with a combat knife. When I asked him to stop he started swinging the thing at me. I drew my .45 then backed off about 50 feet and called the MP's on my little radio. I suppose I could have placed him under apprehension and used whatever force was reasonably required to enforce my lawful order...but it was so much more fun watching the MP's beat the guy down with their nightsticks...

Milspec
__________________
"...there is no second place winner in a gunfight."

Colonel Bill Jordan
Milspec is offline  
Old February 3, 2009, 06:26 PM   #29
M1911
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 28, 2000
Posts: 4,055
Quote:
Emphasis added. Note the influence of Garner v. Tennessee.

Without consulting an experienced Florida trial attorney, I would not feel comfortable using the threat of deadly force to hold anyone, unless it were clearly immediately necessary to protect loss of life.

There's much to lose, and in my mind, little to gain.
Amen. Many people simply don't understand just how limited you are in using deadly force as a result of Tennessee v. Garner.
M1911 is offline  
Old February 3, 2009, 07:34 PM   #30
Jim March
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 14, 1999
Location: Pittsburg, CA, USA
Posts: 7,236
My PERSONAL policy is fixed in stone: let them run unless I'm 100% certain they've committed either murder, attempted murder, rape or attempted rape. (The latter two are influenced by the existence of AIDS and other serious STDs.)

I *think* that will pass muster under Garner.
__________________
Jim March
Jim March is offline  
Old February 4, 2009, 02:19 PM   #31
Para Bellum
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2005
Location: right there
Posts: 1,847
Hold them

Holt them, it's the only way of making sure that they won't stab you in the back later on.

Make sure you carry your cell phone in a way that allows you to grab it an call 911 with your weak hand.

Put 911 on Quick dial on the three lowest buttons on your cell phone (makes callin 911 under stress much easier).

Good post, makes many of us us check our local laws.
__________________
Si vis pacem - para bellum
If you want peace - prepare for war
Para Bellum is offline  
Old February 4, 2009, 07:26 PM   #32
OldMarksman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 1,839
Quote:
Holt them, it's the only way of making sure that they won't stab you in the back later on.
Really?

Well, maybe they won't take you out before they're apprehended... it happens.

And maybe the lookout or driver won't come around to see what's holding things up and shoot you from behind (had you considered that?)... it can happen.

And maybe you won't end up being arrested and charged.... it happens.

But how do you know they won't be released in short order, on bond or otherwise? It happens all the time.

I'd rather have them gone right away, give a description, let professionals pursue them, and give them as little motivation for retribution as possible.

Much to lose, little to gain.
OldMarksman is offline  
Old February 4, 2009, 11:26 PM   #33
scorpion_tyr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 10, 2008
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,305
Depending on the situation I would probably tell them to remain still and that any movement may be seen as a hostile one and I will fire. If they move and it is obvious they are retreating away from me and/or my family and no longer pose a threat, they are free to go.

If they attempt to retreat via a path that takes them any closer to myself of anyone else I'm attempting to defend I'm going to fire.

If they do remain still I will stay at least 6-10 feet away. I'll keep my sights on them until LEO's arrive, but I will NEVER try to physically detain them. If I'm close enough to touch them, I'm close enough for them to disarm me and kill me with my own gun.
__________________
A hit with a .45 ACP beats a hit with a .22 LR everytime. A hit with a .22 LR beats a miss with a .50 BMG everytime.
scorpion_tyr is offline  
Old February 5, 2009, 02:04 AM   #34
goldfacade
Member
 
Join Date: July 22, 2008
Location: Central, FL
Posts: 90
"HOLD 'EM!!! In florida you can hold a person in the commission of a "violent felony" which I am positive is any case where I could feel my life and safety were at risk. I am legally allowed to use any level of force to hold the suspect. when they initially submit I will block the exit and if they try to flee they are coming at me thus lethal force to protect myself may be used and it is not shooting a fleeing BG... "

I think you need to re-check your facts...
http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/wea...f_defense.html

"forcible felony" is what i believe you were trying to refer to, is narrow in its definition. The included link is a simple FAQ that will help you understand your rights in FL. In Florida State Statute 790 you will find the complete articles.
goldfacade is offline  
Old February 5, 2009, 09:03 AM   #35
Rich Miranda
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2008
Location: San Antonio, not San Antone...
Posts: 1,203
Quote:
- when he flees, he's no longer a threat.
Often true, but in many states there is castle doctrine. If they are still in my home, they are still a threat. What if they're running away to go grab a knife from the kitchen? Or to take a hostage?

Like someone said, complicated.
__________________
Read this!: I collect .38 Special and .357 Mag cartridges and I will PAY CASH for the headstamps I don't already have! Please PM me.
Please donate blood, plasma, and platelets - people's lives literally depend on it.
Rich Miranda is offline  
Old February 5, 2009, 12:11 PM   #36
hogdogs
Staff In Memoriam
 
Join Date: October 31, 2007
Location: Western Florida panhandle
Posts: 11,071
I ain't gonna hold 'em then... just stand in their path, armed, refusing to retreat...

Brent
hogdogs is offline  
Old February 5, 2009, 12:33 PM   #37
OldMarksman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 1,839
Quote:
I ain't gonna hold 'em then... just stand in their path, armed, refusing to retreat...
And that wouldn't constitute detaining them?

I guess it would serve to keep them in, if your have only one door and no windows, unless an accomplice outside shoots you in the back.

Of course, if they are not charged you may have a real problem, and maybe even if they are--civil, criminal proceedings--you may prevail, but at what cost? And then again, maybe you won't. And if they are released right away, a problem of a different kind.

But--if that helps your ego and you are not risk adverse, proceed.

Let's just hope that nothing you do helps the anti gun crowd infringe our rights.
OldMarksman is offline  
Old February 5, 2009, 12:34 PM   #38
Coyote Hitman
Junior member
 
Join Date: August 17, 2007
Posts: 88
Quote:
HOLD 'EM!!! In florida you can hold a person in the commission of a "violent felony" which I am positive is any case where I could feel my life and safety were at risk. I am legally allowed to use any level of force to hold the suspect. when they initially submit I will block the exit and if they try to flee they are coming at me thus lethal force to protect myself may be used and it is not shooting a fleeing BG...
Brent
Nothing personal, and I believe you are well intentioned, but I think this is extremely bad advice and a surefire way of bringing trouble upon yourself.

--Life and safety at risk; block the only exit--
Any decent attorney is going to eat you alive on this.
I.E.

So Mr. Hogdog, you were in fear of your life because Mr. Y was such a threat to you, correct? Yes, that is right. So you drew your pistol and threatened Mr. Y with deadly force--to protect yourself because he was a viable threat, correct? Yes. Then you blocked Mr. Y's only means of egress, preventing him from leaving the area and alleviating any threat to your safety? Uh, well...um.... So then you shot and killed Mr. Y as he tried to get away by running out the only entrance? Uh, well......um... The very entrance you blocked? Uh, well......um... Essentially, what you did is create and maintain a condition that would enable you to use deadly force. But I though he would come back and hurt me. Objection, speculation. Objection sustained. Are you a cowboy Mr. Hogdog? No sir. You could have fooled me, how many notches in the belt are you up to now, anyway?

In a civil trial where the burden of proof is P.O.E., you are hung.
In a criminal trial, you might also face conviction on several charges.

Win, lose, or draw, you have problems that will get VERY expensive to sort through.

IMO, it doesn't take much to make a well intentioned person appear a gun toting cowboy looking to carve a notch into his belt. This is what I seek to avoid. If I were a civilian without an oath to uphold, I would let them walk UNLESS I could reasonably articulate (not speculate) doing so posed a greater risk to my safety.

Last edited by Coyote Hitman; February 5, 2009 at 12:46 PM.
Coyote Hitman is offline  
Old February 5, 2009, 02:09 PM   #39
hogdogs
Staff In Memoriam
 
Join Date: October 31, 2007
Location: Western Florida panhandle
Posts: 11,071
Quote:
So Mr. Hogdog, you were in fear of your life because Mr. Y was such a threat to you, correct? Yes, that is right. So you drew your pistol and threatened Mr. Y with deadly force--to protect yourself because he was a viable threat, correct? Yes. Then you blocked Mr. Y's only means of egress, preventing him from leaving the area and alleviating any threat to your safety? Uh, well...um.... So then you shot and killed Mr. Y as he tried to get away by running out the only entrance? Uh, well......um... The very entrance you blocked? Uh, well......um... Essentially, what you did is create and maintain a condition that would enable you to use deadly force. But I though he would come back and hurt me. Objection, speculation. Objection sustained. Are you a cowboy Mr. Hogdog? No sir. You could have fooled me, how many notches in the belt are you up to now, anyway?
No sir, I did not block his egress, I chose a spot of floor to stand in my dwelling and refused retreat, then he ran at ME and I was forced to "stand my ground"... I didn't know he was running for the door, he was running at me and I felt my life was treatened by this home invading criminal entity. No i have no notches in my belt as I do not celebrate the taking of this person's life... I thank my lucky stars to have lived thru that nightmare...

BTW, I did not give advice, rather an opinion only.
Brent
hogdogs is offline  
Old February 5, 2009, 02:41 PM   #40
OldMarksman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 1,839
Quote:
I chose a spot of floor to stand in my dwelling and refused retreat, then he ran at ME and I was forced to "stand my ground"... I didn't know he was running for the door, he was running at me and I felt my life was treatened by this home invading criminal entity
Mr. Hogdog, you would have the court believe that you do not know where the door is in your own dwelling?

By the way, nothing forces you to stand your ground. The law in your state simply says that you do not have to retreat from a place where you can legally be without forfeiting the right to a justifiability defense.

I wouldn't try to extend that to a justification for shooting a fleeing suspect. The test case could be extremely expensive monetarily, and perhaps in other ways. What's to gain?
OldMarksman is offline  
Old February 5, 2009, 02:51 PM   #41
hogdogs
Staff In Memoriam
 
Join Date: October 31, 2007
Location: Western Florida panhandle
Posts: 11,071
Since this was another "what if" scenario thread I opted to play along... In all actuality I will not have the chance to hold 'em or let them go... Intruder in my home is going to be a lead receptacle in too short of order.
A home invader has me in fear for my life by gaining entry... No warnings from me at all. Simply defend my loved ones from danger results in 2 COM... I don't multi task well enuff to play games with the intruder.
Brent
hogdogs is offline  
Old February 5, 2009, 05:19 PM   #42
Deet
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 12, 2008
Location: INDIANA
Posts: 191
If the BG was in my house he'd be dead. Anywhere else if he ran I'd let him.
__________________
Ruger P95, GP100, KelTec P11, Mossberg 500, Mosin Nagant 91/30, S&W M&P 45
Deet is offline  
Old February 5, 2009, 05:35 PM   #43
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,099
Why is everyone so sure that the shots they fire will be necessarily lethal? That's not really the case - no offense to your marksmanship or stopping power of your gun.

When you say, he will be dead - isn't that posturing? Not all COM shots are lethal or head shots. So if you do hit the BG and they fall down - maybe they aren't dead. So you can call the cops.

So I find the statement that they will be dead or whatever, not really realistic.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old February 5, 2009, 05:43 PM   #44
hogdogs
Staff In Memoriam
 
Join Date: October 31, 2007
Location: Western Florida panhandle
Posts: 11,071
Mr.Meyer, If the BG is not dead how can one be positive it is safe turn your back on them to call the LE agency? I am guessing 2 COM followed by a head shot if BG is still standing will likely allow me to call 911... At which point I can likely let them crawl out if I did my job. Blood trails find plenty of BG's. As I understood the hold 'em question, it was without shots fired...
Brent
hogdogs is offline  
Old February 5, 2009, 06:03 PM   #45
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,099
No one suggested turning your back on a person. My point is that two in the chest and in the head (unless you have X ray vision) don't guarantee death as some posters usually suggest. Folks say in many threads that if the BG is in their house, they will be dead.

However, I've heard enough lectures to know that there is no gurantee that your shots will be lethal. If they are not immediately lethal - modern medicine saves most gun shot victims.

As for the tactical issue - one would continue to be oriented towards the downed person. If you live with someone - tell them to call for help. If you live alone, you might have a problem but what are your options:

1. Try to get to a phone with the BG in sight
2. Since the BG is incapacitated for the moment - remove yourself at speed to a safe distance or room to get help.
3. Finish him off and face murder charges as I don't think any castle or self-defense doctrine will support a finishing shot - yeah, you can lie and hope you don't get CSI'ed.

So, I was just objecting to the throw away - they will be dead in my house as I am the dead eyed lethal shot meister.

As far as holding them - if they want to leave - fine with me. Call the law and up the firepower and hunker down waiting for help.

While you might defend yourself on shooting a fleeing felon, you might not. And it will cost you a fortune. The idea that a fleeing felon will come back for revenge needs to be proven empirically. It might happen with stalkers or if you are in some gang mess. I don't see reports that pure B&E guys do that.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old February 5, 2009, 06:11 PM   #46
hogdogs
Staff In Memoriam
 
Join Date: October 31, 2007
Location: Western Florida panhandle
Posts: 11,071
Gotcha... Well rather an a coup de gras shot... one could just take a few minutes trying to remember the phone number to "911"...
Brent
hogdogs is offline  
Old February 5, 2009, 07:21 PM   #47
BillCA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 28, 2004
Location: Silicon Valley, Ca
Posts: 7,083
Back to the OP...

In order to draw my weapon the BG has to clearly pose a threat of great bodily harm or death. Fair enough.

Let's suppose Mr. BG accosts me in the parking lot of a 7-11 or similar stop & rob, displays a large fixed blade knife or bayonet and demands my money. The lethal threat is implicit in his brandishing the knife. I tell him "Fine! Okay fine! No sweat man!" As I sweep my jacket aside and begin to draw, he gets a clue and realizes what's coming, so he drops the knife and shows his palms, apologizing profusely. Now what?

Well, he's attempted a felony for which I may legally arrest him under the citizen's arrest doctrine. If I quickly follow up with commands to put him on the ground until help arrives AND he obeys, all is well and good.

I can tell him it's his lucky day and he has 10 seconds to get out of visual range. Let him run somewhere else and count his blessings.

But...
  1. What if you order him down on the ground and he just turns and starts walking away?
  2. If you tell him to get lost or start running, what do you do if he decides to simply walk away 50 feet? Or only 30 feet?
  3. Do you do anything different if he walks off across the parking lot some 50 feet away, then starts angrily cussing you and telling you how he's "gonna whip yo' a**"?

In (1) above, I'm going to keep him covered until he is either out of sight or too far away to be a viable threat, while maintaining a "watch-six" attitude. I may even retreat out of his sight. It's certain that I will modify my location while his back is turned.

For (2), the obvious answer is to use a cell phone or a nearby phone (if available) to call the PD and have them deal with the guy. Heck, he just may want his knife back.

For (3), the response is about the same as for (2) except that a careful eye is kept on him at all times and for any buddies lurking about.

Home Intruders:
Someone in my home who fails to follow instructions to leave or surrender will leave slightly heavier than he arrived. He may or may not survive his injuries.

In the event that one faces an intruder conveniently in the livingroom and at your first shot they double over, drop to the floor screaming and curl into a fetal position, you are now stuck with it.

Obviously the BG can be faking or not hurt as bad as you think. At this stage, obtaining help is your next step and dialing 911 is second to keeping him covered. SOP says you do what you can to keep out of his line of vision.

If you shoot someone who is down on the ground, I guarantee it will come up in the forensic examination. You'll need a solid explanation for those shots.
__________________
BillCA in CA (Unfortunately)
BillCA is offline  
Old February 5, 2009, 08:01 PM   #48
Deet
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 12, 2008
Location: INDIANA
Posts: 191
Glenn you are right I wasn't meaning that I am the greatest shot in the world. I should have stated that in my home I use a 12ga with 00 buck for HD, and most likely the BG would be dead. Or in your reality maybe he will live and I will die, but rest assured at 10 feet away the BG and I fire, someone is going to die. I do take exception with you knowing what kind of shot I am, or anyone for that matter. I shot a running 6pt buck at 35 yards away straight thru the heart. I have a witness and I also posted on this forum with a picture and story. (I'm sorry I don't know how to link to it but it is out there) So yes some people may not be able to shoot, may need more than one shot, or may not know how to handle a gun, as for me in particular I don't believe your statement holds water.
As far as letting the BG run it still remains ok by me.
__________________
Ruger P95, GP100, KelTec P11, Mossberg 500, Mosin Nagant 91/30, S&W M&P 45
Deet is offline  
Old February 6, 2009, 01:51 AM   #49
Sand Rat
Member
 
Join Date: January 4, 2009
Posts: 15
Many a buck has hit my dinner table and most of them seemed like pretty amazing shots at the time. The difference is they weren't attacking me in my sleep, scaring my family and myself then threatening our lives as I tried to grapple with my bedside blaster. They were just trotting through the forest on cold, quiet mornings...much different situation. Not doubting anyone's skills, just seems like apples and oranges.

I'd ask them to sit on the ground, facing away from me, keep my distance and have wifey call for LE>>>if they ran, I'd let them go.
Sand Rat is offline  
Old February 6, 2009, 10:10 AM   #50
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,099
I don't like to repeat myself - but it is a mistake to think that shots will be necessarily fatal or you won't miss.

Experts miss under stress and folks survive massage damage. That was my point.

The initial statement was that if someone was in the house, they would be dead - if you deconstruct - that was an overstatement.

I just like to be realistic so that one is aware of the contingencies.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:30 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2013 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.14609 seconds with 7 queries