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Old January 29, 2009, 09:59 PM   #1
magnuumpwr
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Any help with identifing this rifle?

This gun was given to me and was told that it was a muzzleloader. This it is not, but exactly what it is, is a mystery to me. I know that it is a 7.62X54R, but that is where my knowledge about this rifle ends. Here are a few pics.

No, it's the bottom one.

This is the stampings on top of the chamber.

Side view of the rear sight.

Rear sight flipped up.

Front sight.
Any ideas
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Old January 29, 2009, 10:05 PM   #2
Chipperman
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It's a Russian M1891 Mosin-Nagant. Most of the ones floating around now are the 91/30. Yours is an earlier model.

http://world.guns.ru/rifle/rfl03-e.htm

Hard to tell from the pics, but it appears to be the Infantry model. If you measure the length, you will know for sure. It was made by the Ishevsk Aresenal, as shown by the triangular stamp with the arrow inside.

http://www.mosinnagant.net/USSR/mosi...t_markings.asp

edit to add more info

Last edited by Chipperman; January 29, 2009 at 10:11 PM.
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Old January 29, 2009, 10:15 PM   #3
magnuumpwr
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Measure from muzzle to end of chamber or where?
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Old January 30, 2009, 07:18 AM   #4
Chipperman
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You can either measure the barrel or the whole rifle. If you look at the first link I gave you, there is a chart which shows lengths for the different models.
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Old January 30, 2009, 10:53 AM   #5
carguychris
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This site has an excellent Mosin-Nagant model identification guide.

http://7.62x54r.net/

A few thoughts:
  • It is either an M91 Infantry Rifle or an M91 Dragoon Rifle, depending on its length. The Infantry rifles measure 51-1/4" (130cm) long overall, while the Dragoons are 48-3/4" (124cm) long.
  • Most of these rifles were converted to M91/30 standards during or shortly after the Great Patriotic War (known as World War II to Westerners). Converted models are quite common and cheap, but unconverted rifles like yours are somewhat of a rarity, and are more valuable than garden-variety M91/30s. (M91/30s are Dragoon length and have a flat rear sight and a hooded front sight, as well as a number of other minor differences.)
  • If it lacks import marks, it's even MORE of a rarity. However, importers usually stamp or engrave the LH side of the receiver or the barrel base, which aren't visible in your pictures.
  • FYI the rear sight is gradated in arshini (singular: arshin), an obsolete Imperial Russian unit of measurement equal to 2'-4", 0.77yd, and 0.71m.
  • FWIW the "r" mark after the year of production stands for the Russian word for "year". The numerical year in the Russian language is an adjective, not a stand-alone noun like in English, so it must always be followed by the word "year" to be grammatically correct. For instance, a Russian would say, "The rifle was made in the 1929 year", rather than "The rifle was made in 1929".
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Old January 30, 2009, 12:50 PM   #6
magnuumpwr
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Here are some more pics to help.

Taped from butt to muzzle.

Tape at the end of muzzle.

Right side of chamber.

Bottom of chamber.

Left side of chamber is slick with no stamps at all.

Symbol on top left edge of chamber.
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Old January 30, 2009, 01:35 PM   #7
carguychris
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Wowzers! It looks like you've got a mostly original non-import-marked Dragoon.

Do you have any idea where this rifle came from, or how the person who gave it to you obtained it? There's a story behind it, because it's probably a battlefield pick-up taken as a souvenir by an American soldier during WWII, Korea, or Vietnam. Even though this type was technically outdated during WWII, the Soviets were so deperately short on rifles early in the war that they armed their soldiers with whatever they could find. In the postwar era, the Soviets gave large numbers of obsolescent rifles to their satellite countries and to Marxist guerrilla groups in capitalist countries. North Korean, Chinese, and North Vietnamese soldiers were often found armed with Mosin-Nagants of all types.

{EDIT} Check if the serial numbers match on the barrel, bolt, top of the buttplate, and the bottom of the magazine floorplate. If the number on the bolt doesn't match the barrel, do not fire this rifle until it is thoroughly inspected by a gunsmith.
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Old January 30, 2009, 01:47 PM   #8
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Of the 4 serial #'ed parts, none are the same. I was trying to check for the value of this gun prior to doing any having it re-blued or having the stock refinished. This gun looks pretty rough and thought that it could use some TLC.
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Old January 30, 2009, 02:58 PM   #9
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Don't refinish it, reblue it, or anything like that. It will be more valuable as-is, despite the fact that it's beat-up and the numbers don't match.

FWIW it's common for Mosin-Nagants to have non-matching numbers, or renumbered parts that have had the old serial numbers lined out and the correct serial number engraved or stamped in their place. These rifles led harsh lives and most of them are "parts guns" to some extent. Furthermore, if the bringback theory is correct, the Soviets wouldn't have cared if the bolt blew back in the face of some Southeast Asian peasant.
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Old January 30, 2009, 03:31 PM   #10
magnuumpwr
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Thanks for the help Chris. Guess I'll just oil it down and leave it alone.
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Old January 30, 2009, 04:01 PM   #11
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Yes, this is a Dragoon from the last year of production (in 1930, all Mosin production was converted to the 1891/30, instead of having separate Infantry, Dragoon, Cavalry, and Carbine versions, but they put the M44 Carbine into production after WW2 experience showed that it was better for manoeuvrability). It's marked as being made at the Izhevsk arsenal.
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