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Old January 20, 2009, 09:07 AM   #1
hoytinak
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Infractions...?

Another post got me thinking about this (been wondering since I got mine though). I looked through the forum rules and didn't find any mention of infractions so I thought I'd ask here. Seems many members on here have gotten infractions (including myself) and was wondering what the deal is with these. Have you always given these out, if not when did yall start this? (since there's nothing in the rules about them) How many gets you booted for good? Mine says is doesn't expire.....for those that do expire, how long to they stay on our "record"? Anything else we members should know about them?
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Old January 20, 2009, 11:21 AM   #2
Mike Irwin
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Infractions are something new that was recently (or fairly recently) added in the a VB software update.

Staff has not really used them before, but we've been discussion their use and will probably start doing so on a regular basis.

We're still working out the details.
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Old January 20, 2009, 11:26 AM   #3
hoytinak
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Quote:
We're still working out the details.
Shouldn't there be a set standard (in the forum rules) before some of the mods start using (and possibly abusing) them at their own will? I know this is a private forum, but it'd be nice to see them in the forum rules if you're going to use them.
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Old January 20, 2009, 12:56 PM   #4
Mike Irwin
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"Shouldn't there be a set standard (in the forum rules)..."

There is a set standard; the rules that you agreed to when you registered for TFL.

"Welcome to The Firing Line, a virtual community dedicated to the discussion and advancement of responsible firearms ownership. You are welcome to come in and visit our ranges and facilities, drop in on our conversations and enjoy our camaraderie. To participate and post messages, you need only provide a name and email address; we neither sell nor distribute Member information to third parties. We are not a commercial site.


There are only five rules for participation:


1) All Topics and Posts must be related to firearms, accessories or civil liberties issues. Multiple Registrations Prohibited.
2) Language that would be inappropriate in the polite company of strangers is quite unwelcome here.
3) No spamming, trolling, flaming or other personal attacks, be they acrimonious or veiled in humor. If you take issue with a Member's position, by all means speak your mind. If you have a problem with a Member's religion, creed, national origin, sex, politics, associations or personal hygiene, take it to email.
4) Mangling of the English language whether thru ignorance, age, sloth or intent diminishes and embarrasses each of us. Posts which are indecipherable due to inability to translate thoughts into coherent written statements will be deleted without explanation. Recidivists will be removed.
5) As we can never convey a philosophy through a few rules, we reserve the right, in our sole discretion, to edit or delete posts and/or to revoke Membership. No Second Chances; No Argument; No Trial; No Way. At best you will receive one warning."


The infractions feature is a tool, it is not a rule in and of itself.

Violations of the above enumerated rules will draw an infraction, the seriousness of which is based on the particular rule that was violated and the manner in which the violation occurred.

If you don't want to be issued an infraction, learn our five rules, adhere to any posting guidelines that are provided in sticky messages at the top of individual forums, and work and play well with others.


My comment about "working out the details" means that we're working to get all moderators into the mindset of issuing infractions whenever there is a violation of the forum rules.
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Old January 21, 2009, 12:58 PM   #5
pax
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As a side note, rule #5 says that we're doing you a favor if you get an infraction:

Quote:
5) As we can never convey a philosophy through a few rules, we reserve the right, in our sole discretion, to edit or delete posts and/or to revoke Membership. No Second Chances; No Argument; No Trial; No Way. At best you will receive one warning."
A rule violation is always justification for an immediate ban. Sometimes a moderator might be lenient based on extenuating circumstances, and give an infraction instead, but it's dangerous to count on that. The only safe thing to do is to follow the rules from the beginning.

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Old January 24, 2009, 12:18 AM   #6
Scattergun Bob
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Pax

No offense, but it is hard to know the intent of Rule#5, Or how one would stay in the safe zone of such a all encompassing statement. I can see some folks having a problem with it.

The Uniform Code of Military Justice (toughness) has an article # 134, which in general states anything not covered in the previous 134 articles is covered here, a nifty little piece of justice.

Good Luck & Stay Safe
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Old January 24, 2009, 09:07 AM   #7
Mike Irwin
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Number 5 is our Number 134.

You're missing a vital distinction, though.

Rules 1 through 4 list what is expected of you, the TFL Member.

Rule 5 isn't really a rule per se, as it it's not something that posters are either to do, or are not to do. There are certain actions/postings/ideas etc. that may not be covered adequately by rules 1 through 4; rule 5 says staff will deal with those situations when we come to them.

For example, nowhere in rules 1 through 4 does it say not to describe in detail how to convert a semi-auto handgun into full-auto.

Rule 5 would apply, as such an activity would fall afoul of Federal law, and we don't do how to break the law here.
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Old January 24, 2009, 01:45 PM   #8
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Seems to me Rule #5 is your standard CYA. Which, I have no problem with. In general, it is a quite common forum rule, i.e.; "this is our forum and we reserve the right to let you stay or send you packing. More over, should we decide to send you packing, we reserve the right to keep the reasons we did so entirely to ourselves." Don't get me wrong, I mean no disrespect. In fact, I use the same rule in my own forum, and it is pretty much stated there as I have stated it here.
Whenever interacting with a group of people, strangers or friends, and discussing topics which folks potentially have very strong opinions about, and topics which can, at times, spark quite passionate if not volatile debate; I find it best to follow two simple rules of my own:

Rule #1. The Golden Rule
Rule #2. Stick to the topic
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Old January 24, 2009, 01:48 PM   #9
Scattergun Bob
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Mike

No offence but I was trying to speak to PAX, guess I should have P/Med her.

Quote:
Rule 5 isn't really a rule per se
I disagree , this forums rule # 5 is the most powerful item on the slate, because it provides " discretionary powers", in the right hands that can be a good thing, in other hands and zealous minds it can be a nightmare. Again, how one would stay in the safe zone of such a all encompassing statement can be an issue.

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Old January 24, 2009, 10:46 PM   #10
Mike Irwin
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Bob,

What part of this isn't clear?

"Rule 5 isn't really a rule per se, as it it's not something that posters are either to do, or are not to do."

The first four points are part of your code of conduct, what is expected of you when you travel TFL. Those are your RULES for participation.

The fifth is not rule because it gives you no definitive guidance. It indicates only that the staff is the final arbiter. At best, it's a notice.

But, since you seem to be quite worried that somehow the staff is going become zealots tomorrow (I can tell you definitively, that's not scheduled until March), I invite you to write a set of rules that covers ALL possibilities and eventualities of what might transpire on this board so as to guide staff and to ensure a fair and equitable application of the rules in all circumstances.

Simply stating "one will not insult other members" is not enough. To prevent the boards demise into heavy-handed zealotry, you must give every possible example of what constitutes an insult. You must also include a comprehensive list of when an apparent insult is not actually an insult.

Another problem area in the past has been the occasional advocacy of illegal activities by some on TFL.

To prevent this in the future, we need a comprehensive list of all illegal activities, all potentially illegal activities, and it must be broken out to the Federal, State, and Local levels given that what may be illegal in one state may not be necessarily illegal in another state.

Of course, that's just the tip of the iceberg, a few examples to get you started. I'm sure the comprehensive list of rules will be far more expansive than that. In fact, I know it will be.

I figure this shouldn't take you more than, oh, say, a few hundred years if you really put your shoulder to the wheel...

See how ludicrous it is to try to craft a comprehensive set of rules for a venue such as this?


TFL's four rules and one guideline have been in place now, without too many changes, for close to a decade, or a bit over.

I've been a member here since 2000, and many of the same names continue to occupy staff roles.

Given that they haven't revolted, seized control, and imposed their own brand of zealotry on the boards should tell you something.

It tells me that the four rules and a guideline work, and to put too much effort into worrying about their application is time wasted that would be better spent doing something more productive.
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Old January 24, 2009, 10:54 PM   #11
Mike Irwin
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Oh, by the way...

"Or how one would stay in the safe zone of such a all encompassing statement. I can see some folks having a problem with it."

If you've received no warnings from staff and have accumulated no infractions, then I'd say that you're well within the safe zone. Continue to post as you have before, and you should remain in the safe zone.

Those who have "problems with it" would very likely have problems no matter how exacting, how indepth, and how comprehensive the rules are.
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Old January 24, 2009, 11:03 PM   #12
Scattergun Bob
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Mike

I am not going to have a long drawn out argument with you again, did that before and it did no good.

Quote:
But, since you seem to be quite worried that somehow the staff is going become zealots tomorrow
I am not disgruntled or unhappy, nor will you bait me into an attempt to reclarify. I have a difference of opinion as to the intent of this rule and it's application, I voiced it, DONE.
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Old January 24, 2009, 11:21 PM   #13
Mike Irwin
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Tell you what, get a few more years under your belt here, and then we can discuss this again.

That way you'll get a long-term feel for how the rules are actually applied on a daily basis.

To be honest, I don't recall ever having an argument with you before.

If you're not disgruntled or unhappy, why the "OMG, WHAT IF...." scenario crafting?
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Old January 24, 2009, 11:30 PM   #14
Scattergun Bob
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Quote:
To be honest, I don't recall ever having an argument with you before.
So do you still insist in removing your sideplates upside down?

Quote:
OMG, WHAT IF...." scenario crafting?
No that was not my intent, as I said in the begining, I made a mistake;

Quote:
No offence but I was trying to speak to PAX, guess I should have P/Med her.
Can we disengage from this please, if not then who is the moderator for moderators?
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Old January 25, 2009, 12:38 AM   #15
Bud Helms
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It really is not complicated.

Quote:
No offense, but it is hard to know the intent of Rule#5, Or how one would stay in the safe zone of such a all encompassing statement. I can see some folks having a problem with it.
You don't need to know the intent of a rule to follow it and as has been pointed out, it's not so much a rule as additional info as a footnote to Rules 1 through 4. But since it seems to be so important to some of you, I'll tell you.

If you violate Rules 1 through 4, you are not promised a warning.

Rule #5: If you behave like a bozo, whether it specifically violates Rules 1 through 4 or not, you may receive a warning, you may not. And what constitutes "behaving like a bozo" is up to staff's judgement. It usually involves general uncivil behavior or constantly having to be warned. If you become high maintenance, you are a candidate. I can tell you that staff is reluctant to swing the axe on any member. A banning will be due to an obvious offense or one agreed on by more than one staff member, if there is a question.

I hope that helps
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Old January 25, 2009, 01:14 AM   #16
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don't stop now, gentlemen, lets wind up and flog this deceased equine a little more!
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Old January 25, 2009, 02:06 AM   #17
Scattergun Bob
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Bud

What started out as a simple question to PAX, has erupted in to 11 posts!!!! I truly asked to disengage from it and that I made a mistake, I should have used the P/M system.

Thank You for the amplification, I surrender

Good Luck & Stay Safe
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Old January 25, 2009, 02:24 AM   #18
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Quote:
I hope that helps
Do we still have double secret probation?

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Old January 25, 2009, 07:41 AM   #19
hoytinak
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Wow, I didn't think I'd start all this by asking what I what was a couple simple questions (which still didn't get answered)....mods, please lock this thread.
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Old January 25, 2009, 09:20 AM   #20
Al Norris
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OK. Let me try, hoytinak.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hoytinak
Another post got me thinking about this (been wondering since I got mine though). I looked through the forum rules and didn't find any mention of infractions so I thought I'd ask here. Seems many members on here have gotten infractions (including myself) and was wondering what the deal is with these. Have you always given these out, if not when did yall start this?
IIRC, they became available as a tool with the current version of vBulletin. Bud was the first to start using them. Then I started. I think we are the only mods using them at this point. For what it's worth, we really haven't given that many out, regardless of what it seems.
Quote:
(since there's nothing in the rules about them)
...because the rules were all made before this tool was available?
Quote:
How many gets you booted for good? Mine says is doesn't expire.....for those that do expire, how long to they stay on our "record"? Anything else we members should know about them?
Infractions are nothing more than a warning. Like any warning, if you get one, that's more than the rules say we need to give. They can be set to ban a member if a certain point value is met, however that has not been set up. Theoretically, you could receive several infractions (over the years) and not get booted. That's the same as with formal warnings... Which also stay on your "record" forever.

Here's the thing. We all make mistakes. If you are warned about a certain thing and don't repeat that behavior, then your safe from the boot. There are members with several warnings, all about different things and they are still members. It's the people that don't get it and keep running afoul of the rules in the same or similar manner, after being warned, that will be shown the door.

Folks who contribute to the goals of the Firing Line are not booted, because of a mistake, now and then. It's generally the anti-social neanderthals that will see the exit sign. Many of that type, never even see a warning.

Does that answer your questions?
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Old January 25, 2009, 09:25 AM   #21
hoytinak
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Thanks Antipitas
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Old January 25, 2009, 11:13 AM   #22
Mike Irwin
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"So do you still insist in removing your sideplates upside down?"

Uhm...

OK, your memory is better than mine, I guess.
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Old January 25, 2009, 11:17 AM   #23
hoytinak
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I still didn't mean for this to turn into a spitting contest between members and mods....since my question was answered can I request to have this thread that I regretably started closed?
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Old January 25, 2009, 12:01 PM   #24
Mal H
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Yes.
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