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Old January 23, 2009, 09:08 PM   #26
Wildalaska
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Bill its a duplicate
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=333350

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Old January 23, 2009, 09:16 PM   #27
Shane Tuttle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Musketeer
No matter. As a NY resident this is the best bit of news on the 2A I have seen related to this state in a long while!
Seeing that NY is one of the most abusive states on the 2A as well as other rights of the individual, I must say that this could be a huge step in swinging NY back to restoring your rights.

I must still be aprehensive, though. Just because she's been given a good grade by the NRA doesn't necessarily mean she won't give in to political pressure. You think she will stand her ground when we really need her, Musketeer?
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Old January 23, 2009, 09:48 PM   #28
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That new Senator from Virginia, Webb, and the one from Montana are NRA 100%. All the WV house delegation are 100% I think. I'm sure they all got NRA money.

NRA has never been anti-democrat, just anti-gunbrabber.
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Old January 23, 2009, 11:59 PM   #29
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She is my kind of Democrat. I am a shooter, gun owner, CCW, and advocate for 2A & RKBA. I am also a Democrat. The discussions with my fellow gun owners has gotten dicey but nowhere near the rancor of the discussions with my fellow Democrats. But that is how it is - what you see is what you get. That is why she is my kind of Democrat.

But the issue (and this is the point of this post) is not support of hunters (which you hear a lot in the press) but rather the right of the rank and file citizens to keep and bear arms. This is as important as the right of free speech and assembly. In my (not so) humble opinion, the NRA and ACLU need to open a dialog toward mutual goals - ie the preservation of ALL of our constitutional rights.
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Old January 24, 2009, 12:32 AM   #30
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Yes it is. I'll merge.

Dang! I screwed that up and had to move the original thread back here to L&CR.
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Old January 24, 2009, 03:14 AM   #31
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Quote:
and the one from Montana are NRA 100%
Both of our senators, John Tester and Max Baucus, democrats, both graded "A" by the NRA.

Montana's governor Schweitzer, democrat, also got an A from the NRA. He keeps a rifle in his office (and a dog.)

In Montana, being anti-gun means losing every election, no matter party affiliation.
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Old January 24, 2009, 03:54 AM   #32
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The bottom line is gunowners ARE the majority in the US, and, from the ObamaMania gunsales, I would say by a huge margin. We have a Senate leader from Nevada, one of the most gun friendly states in the union, as long as you don't use one in a crime. What a novel idea.

I can accept that after being facist-democrats for a long time, they actually might look at the data, and, find that their facist position has not worked, and, might be willing to examine changing their mantra, in particular after loosing control thanks to GCL a couple elections back.

It would seem a politically unwise move to pass legislation that makes the majority of the people in the United States criminals....
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Old January 24, 2009, 05:20 PM   #33
Glenn E. Meyer
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Socrates - a note from the rules of this forum:

Quote:
The indiscriminate use of invectives such as Demon-crat or Repugnican, or otherwise twisting personal or group names, necessarily embodies negative emotional content.
Using 'facist' - BTW - spelling counts - is getting mighty close to the edge. As we know there a progun democrats and antigun republicans. There are actions that either party takes that one might describe as antithetical to freedom. Looking at data (here's comes Pax!) is not a strong point of most politicians. Let's discuss the issue itself and drop the invective.

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Old January 24, 2009, 08:26 PM   #34
Socrates
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Glenn sorry about the spelling. I use that term because it is exactly what occurs in this area. The original concept of 'liberal', and, in the true sense I am a liberal, is one that objectively and rationally looks at both sides of an issue, and comes to a reasoned response.

What exists in this area is a 'liberal' that has no tolerance for any thought but their own. They will not accept that another side might exist, and, they will attack your very ability to vocalize opposition to their position, while at the same time crying at the top of their lungs that they have the right to free speech, and you can't stop them from expressing their opinion in public.

They will drive you out of your position at work if you disagree with their party line. They will, if you, for example believe in the Second Amendment and actually discuss it cut your income by 75%, before getting rid of you entirely. Earlier in their lives, they may well have blown up your building, torched your car, or try and kill you.

I argue that this definition fits pretty much what the 'liberal' is here:
Quote:
Fascism is an authoritarian nationalist ideology focused on solving economic, political, and social problems that its supporters see as causing national decline or decadence.[1][2][3][4] ...[5] Fascists aim to create a single-party state in which the government is led by a dictator who seeks unity by requiring individuals to subordinate self-interest to the collective interest of the nation or a race.[6][7][8]
While it maybe somewhat inflamatory to put the two words together, it is none the less, describes perfectly the
focus and mentality, and methods of these so called 'liberals'.

I'm open to other ways of describing these folks...

Since this is a thread about the NRA, and the Second Amendment, I was trying to point out that the anti-gun position that is so common in 'liberals'
in Kali is not justified by facts, or rational thinking in Kali. It is not a reasoned argument, because the facts developed in my lifetime do not support
the concept that controlling guns leads to less crime, and less violence. The reverse is true, yet these people continue their anti-gun crusade.

It is, really, a class warfare tactic, rich against poor. And, that position is fueled by a somewhat justified fear of having their lives, and property taken away by poor people with guns, read the gangs that are only going to get stronger as the economy gets worse. The failure is in realizing that the only thing writing anti-gun laws does is make it impossible for law abiding citizens to have a chance to protect themselves. The very rich have their own, armed security, and essentially fortresses, and, they band together in times of crisis, read Rodney King riots.

I will say one more time that Nevada, with their enhancement of penalties if you use a gun in a crime, have, and use the right technique.
Making the majority of US citizens criminals by drachonian gun legislation is NOT a wise move.

Last edited by Socrates; January 24, 2009 at 09:25 PM.
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Old January 24, 2009, 08:27 PM   #35
maestro pistolero
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It's interesting that McCarthy objects to the nomination saying essentially that Gillibrand is pro-gun violence, which is absurd.

Isn't it possible for pro 2A rights folks to be pro-active against gun violence?

Gillibrand seems to have struck a nice balance here. Wouldn't the NRA do well to propose, support and campaign for aggressive anti-violence measures that don't affect 2A rights?

It's disheartening sometimes the extent to which 2A opponents seem to be better able to seize the moral high ground, in terms of PR. We know gun control doesn't work, so let's work to reduce violence in other, smarter ways.
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Old January 24, 2009, 08:37 PM   #36
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The NRA has already called for maximum sentences for violent offenders who used a gun but that is not reported in the media.
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Old January 24, 2009, 09:04 PM   #37
Huey Long
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I will say one more time that Nevada, with their enhancement of penalties if you use a gun in a crime, have, and use the right technique.
I disagree. Murder is murder. Robbery is robbery. Rape is rape. It makes not one iota of difference if the weapon used is a gun, knife of club. In fact, murder committed with a knife or club may call for a harsher penalty than murder committed with a gun since the victim suffers more. I don't know about you, but if I'm to be murdered, I'd much prefer a clean, quick shot to the head than to be bludgeoned or hacked to death.

I do not support gun control, nor sentencing enhancements for crimes committed with guns.
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Old January 24, 2009, 09:18 PM   #38
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Couple points. I'm listening to KSFO, and MY college, St. Mary's Moraga, is having Bill Ayers speak this Wednesday night, under the banner of free speech.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weatherman_(organization)

Folks from such wonderful terrorist groups retired, and, a LOT of them live in this area, or did at the time, and still live here.

Having also lived in the Berkeley area at the time, I can safely say that these groups are NOT 'liberal', and, my previous description should be more along the lines of Stalin.

Mr. Long:
The Nevada law that I've observed enhances legal penalty in the following ways.
If you are part of a group that conspires to commit a criminal act, ALL participants in the crime will be charged with the actions of the members who use guns, not sure about other weapons.

Also, they define kidnapping as almost any restraint in a confined area, by threat of force. In other words, if you use a gun to confine someone while you commit another crime, you are going to be charged with both robbery, and kidnapping. Then everyone in the group is going to be charged with using a weapon to commit the crime, in this case a gun, and both crimes as well.

I much prefer this method of law, rather then banning the private citizens ability to defend himself from armed felons.

Last edited by Socrates; January 24, 2009 at 09:26 PM.
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Old January 24, 2009, 09:32 PM   #39
maestro pistolero
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What if I witness a crime and use a gun to hold the suspect for the police?
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Old January 24, 2009, 09:43 PM   #40
Huey Long
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What if I witness a crime and use a gun to hold the suspect for the police?

Sounds like a citizens arrest to me. I'm sure that the kidnapping statutes make an exception for that.
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Old January 24, 2009, 10:45 PM   #41
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Glenn, I know us users don't get a vote here, but if we did I'd vote with Socrates on this one; there appears to be more than a superficial similarity between "Progressive" and Fascist goals and methods. No need to cut and past from Wikipedia; here is a link to their description of the Fascist Manifesto to use when you're making up your mind on this.
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Old January 24, 2009, 10:52 PM   #42
Wildalaska
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O well it was good whilst it lasted. Sorry meek, your analysis is off base and glens is on, guess this one will be gettin shut down shortly

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Old January 24, 2009, 10:56 PM   #43
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Thanks MeekandMild.

I'm not calling 'liberals' anything, if they are truly liberal, the situation described does NOT apply to them.

I find the same blind dogma on the far right. A lack of any kind of willingness to discuss a position, regardless of it's questionability.

I find irrational belief in either party ludicrious at this point.
How anyone can find much difference in the actions on most issues is nearly impossible at this point.
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Old January 24, 2009, 10:59 PM   #44
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I'm sorry - my call was the use of unnecessary invective. As I said, both parties have extremes that fit the description. Discussing whether some conservatives or liberals are more fascist - are not the way, I think we want this to go.

We've discussed that the new NY Senator may be a positive for the RKBA and that party lines can be crossed - so to all a good night.
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