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Old January 23, 2009, 02:19 PM   #126
azredhawk44
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table in the back full of Lorcins, Ravens and Tecs...
I don't know what the biggest gunshow in the US is, but I've been to probably one of the bigger ones... Crossroads of the West here in Phoenix. It sprawls 5 buildings at the state fair grounds and is pretty dang big.

I see tables with crap guns... sure. H&R .32 revolvers, lorcins, jennings and all that junk. Right out in the open.

No one is running a "wink, wink, nudge, nudge" table "in the back."

I've also been to some pretty small gunshows, or even seen just plain old folks selling guns at flea markets and outdoor community markets.

Still no clandestine crap going on there. They guard their inventory well because it means money to them. There's no "in the back" to go...

Can you expressly describe tables like this, that you've seen, Ken? You've undoubtedly been to more gunshows than I have been to, given your profession and the nature of your august personage...

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Old January 23, 2009, 02:24 PM   #127
Glenn E. Meyer
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Before I go off to eat my clam chowder, Al has it nailed:

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That, above, is the exact aim. No private sales without a NICS check. That alone presumes everyone is a criminal until they prove otherwise. It's bad enough that such a presumption is inherent with buying from a dealer.

Should we get this, then they push for the retention of NICS data (also on their list) and de facto registration (of both the gun and the owner) will be a fact of life in the US.
That is way to fight the battle. It doesn't do anything and will lead to a general infringement. Local time delays are not a strong argument.

In fact, there is a thing called the innoculation effect - if you make a weak argument that can be shot down, then your stronger arguments later are ignored or have less effect.
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Old January 23, 2009, 02:25 PM   #128
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If background checks are good for firearms, they are good for everything else.

We need background checks on gas purchases to prevent arsonists from carrying out their crimes.

We need background checks on computer usage so that internet predators won't harm children.

We need background checks on the sale or lending of books so that subversives won't get any ideas.

We need background checks before marriage licenses are issued to ensure that abusers or "undesirables" aren't marrying.

We need background checks on the sale or rental of vehicles to that criminals will not have them for use in fleeing from police or kidnappings, not to mention eliminating drunk drivers from causing carnage.

If we were discussing anything but firearms, background checks would be considered ridiculous at best, and as having a chilling effect that would deter the excercise of a constitutional right. But, because we have gotten used to the idea, we are "fine" with it in principle. So, let's expand it to everything that might cause harm and do it for the children.
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Old January 23, 2009, 02:27 PM   #129
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That is way to fight the battle. It doesn't do anything and will lead to a general infringement. Local time delays are not a strong argument.
The time delays provide backup for the argument. Ever go to a gunshow when NICS is down? Ever wonder how many times NICS would have to go down on weekends (due to computer issues) before gunshows started becoming less attended and thus died out?
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Old January 23, 2009, 02:30 PM   #130
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the counter argument to that is easily developed with some "provided, that if" language
That you could make a better system isn't an argument in favor of a wider application of the current system for licensees to non-licensees, which I believe is the thrust of the proposal.

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agin its not an either yea o rnay but in themiddle
I am not sure what you mean by this. What would be the middle ground between permitting a purchase at a show and not permitting a purchase at a show? Could you expound?

Also, if every sale needs to pass a background check, wouldn't it make sense to allow distributors to sell directly to the public? If not, what would FFLs ad other than a superfluous link in the chain of supply?


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Are you prohibited forever or just that show?
Unless approved, you have to wait three days before you and the licensee can transact.

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Since I have the role of playing Devil's advocate here - I would say in the argument that if you are turned down by the governmental mechanism for some reason to buy from an FFL, that might be a good reason for public safety and shouldn't we prohibit you from a private sale? See what I'm saying?
Yes, but your question contains some planted assumptions that are not merited. I've underlined them.

It isn't that the government has to turn you down for a licensed purchase on the spot, it is that the government must affirmatively approve you for such a purchase. Absent that affirmation, one must wait three days.

The government does not necessarily withhold affirmation for a reason. I am never denied, and there is in fact no reason to deny me.

I understand that if your name is very common, the chances of the government approving are reduced.

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Local time delays are not a strong argument.

In fact, there is a thing called the innoculation effect - if you make a weak argument that can be shot down, then your stronger arguments later are ignored or have less effect.
Glenn, it has been argued that a background check at a show is a minor inconvenience. I do not believe that mere inconveniece is the primary argument against expansion of the background check to non-lincensed transactions, but it is fair to note that this is not accurately described as a minor inconvenience.

Last edited by zukiphile; January 23, 2009 at 02:41 PM.
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Old January 23, 2009, 02:43 PM   #131
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Can you expressly describe tables like this, that you've seen, Ken? You've undoubtedly been to more gunshows than I have been to, given your profession and the nature of your august personage..
Sure..every gun show I have been to in Alaska, every one in Ohio and Pennsylvania, Missouri etc (now mind you I havent been to an outside gun show in 5 years or so)

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Old January 23, 2009, 03:01 PM   #132
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I agree that the strongest argument against this practice is that it will lead to de facto gun registration.

I think another very good one is that it will do nothing to prevent crime.


Criminals are criminals because they disobey the law they are not going to obey the new law anymore than they would current law which more than likely prevents them form buying or possessing a firearm.

Straw purchasers will still be a problem. All a criminal will have to do is find someone with a clean record. A lot of crime guns come through this route. And whiel this is illegal it is still done. No new law would change this.
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Old January 23, 2009, 03:03 PM   #133
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Buzz - you hit the nail on the head. Firearms are a special case. The others you mentioned are instrumentalities of business and commerce that could be used for evil.

However, firearms are primarily instruments of lethal force. They are protected in the Constitution because they are instruments lethal force.

Their primary design purpose is what shapes the debate in the public's mind. While they can be bought for sport or hunting, that is a trival usage for RKBA purposes.

So when the average person things of the issue - they might think it is reasonable to take a look at a person specifically wanting to buy an instrument of lethal force as compared to a car. And don't we have to take driver's ed and a test to drive?

My usage of minor inconvenience is the rhetoric that would be used against an RKBA position - devil's advocate here - again.

I've seen the behavior Ken describes, BTW. It should be handled by the show manager and BATFE.

There are two routes of persuasion - rational and emotional. I've been playing the emotional anti-gun rhetoric for 'educational purposes'.

There have been studies (don't kill me Kathy!) that demonstrated if you ask about gun rights and gun control - the majority of the gun favors the right for law abiding citizens to own guns. But they are also in favor of processes that prevent criminals from easily buying them. Thus, NICS or 'gun show loophole' arguments have great surface appeal. The debate has to be why excessive regulation will lead to depriving law abiding folks the access to guns. So closing shows or a registration for all private sales is better defensible than Table 1 with FFL Ken vs. Table 2 with Grampa Clem argument, if Clem is skirting retstrictions. So let's stick to argument as a stalking horse for total bans and fed registration.

Discussions among the committed lead to a group think that weakens your ability to argue to those who are on the fence or opposed, if you don't see their arguments.
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Old January 23, 2009, 03:05 PM   #134
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My take on it is that we as responsible gun owners and occasional sellers at gun shows need to better at self policing our own ranks. If we as a community do not allow the wink wink nudge nudge approach as buyers, sellers and show operators we will be better off as a community...

The individuals engaged in the occasional sell off will be allowed to continue as they have in the past. We will still be able to find those hidden gems and yes stocking dealers will still be able to truck out their entire store to the shows....

My issue is that when we are blind to the abuses and do not police ourselves we open ourselves up to Govt regulation under the idea of "reasonable restrictions." If the show operators and the buyers who know better look the other way they are doing the community a disservice. Every time we as the community allow this to happen we are allowing the rest of the public to view our right as firearms owners as a loophole. How can we expect an outsider to not call it a loop hole if we see ourselves see the abuse. For those who feel that reasonable restriction is necessary what other conclusion are they to draw when we do not monitor ourselves.

In the end I would prefer we do it on our own then have the BATF and the Govt lording over us...... but maybe that's just me.

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Old January 23, 2009, 03:21 PM   #135
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So let's stick to argument as a stalking horse for total bans and fed registration.

Discussions among the committed lead to a group think that weakens your ability to argue to those who are on the fence or opposed, if you don't see their arguments.
What weakens a position even more is not knowing the implications of the position. This isn't a matter of commitment, but foresight and knowledge. having more knowledge is rarely a disadvantage. While Ken doesn't appear responsive to questions, I assumed you were both genuinely unaware of how the proposed expansion would work in my state.

Thanks for your courtesy in responding.
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Old January 23, 2009, 03:21 PM   #136
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My take on it is that we as responsible gun owners and occasional sellers at gun shows need to better at self policing our own ranks. If we as a community do not allow the wink wink nudge nudge approach as buyers, sellers and show operators we will be better off as a community...
So are you going to go over to the table full or Ravens, Lorcins and other toss away guns being sold by the private citizen at every show and tell him he can't do that? What makes you think he will listen?
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Old January 23, 2009, 03:24 PM   #137
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So are you going to go over to the table full or Ravens, Lorcins and other toss away guns being sold by the private citizen at every show and tell him he can't do that? What makes you think he will listen?
No but you can point out to the show operator what is going on. You can tell him that only a blind man can't see what it going on. You can tell him that you and other responsible gun owners you know will stop coming to the shows run by them. You can tell them that it sad that for a quick buck they are endangering your rights. because they are putting a quick buck before your rights... .

You can open up a conversation with the guy and explain your point. You could ask the BATF rep there is he a dealer with a lic......

I am not telling you what to do but I know that if we as a community do not take this seriously and police ourselves better the anti-gun side will gain ground and will eventually undermine our rights. As others have said the majority of the population agrees people should be allowed to have guns but they are also heavily in favor of "reasonable restrictions." I think that if we do not make sure that not only the letter of the law but the spirit of the law is being honored we will eventually loose this battle. IMHO that would be a huge step backwards for this country.

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Old January 23, 2009, 03:33 PM   #138
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While Ken doesn't appear responsive to questions,
no, Ken just tries to pitch in whilst the phones ring off the hook, so Ken get get everyhting in with his two spastic finger typing technique

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Old January 23, 2009, 03:52 PM   #139
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That, above, is the exact aim. No private sales without a NICS check. That alone presumes everyone is a criminal until they prove otherwise. It's bad enough that such a presumption is inherent with buying from a dealer.
I agree that the issue is ALL private sales. I wish the name "Gun Show Loophole" would go away as it confuses the issue.

As to the presumption that everyone is a criminal, well that is one way of looking at it. Another, might be that since we don't brand tattoo or otherwise mark those who are prohibited by law from legally owning firearms how else can us law-abiding gun sellers know who not to sell to? See, I assume that those who sell guns are generally honest and don't want to sell to nuts or crooks. Then those who do (once the "loophole" is closed) are lawbreakers whether or not they previously knew the illegal status of the buyer since they didn't do the background check. I would say the NICs then is just an identification tool for nuts and crooks.

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If background checks are good for firearms, they are good for everything else...If we were discussing anything but firearms, background checks would be considered ridiculous at best.
buzzknox, actually here is TN (as you know) each time you buy some types of cold medicine in the pharmacy you have to register and show drivers license. Why? Because the over the counter ingredients of some cold medications are used to make methamphetimine. This program has put a real dent in those that cook the stuff and endanger others. It hasn't stopped the trade entirely but we put up with the registration scheme. Why not a NICS check for a FTF sale? Now, the technology needs to improve but there should be an easy way to do it. Heck, it could be done over the internet like these background check sites you can pay for to get somebody's public records!
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Old January 23, 2009, 03:58 PM   #140
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Ever go to a gunshow when NICS is down? Ever wonder how many times NICS would have to go down on weekends (due to computer issues) before gunshows started becoming less attended and thus died out?
Happened once. They sent it to a local gun store and I picked it up the following Monday. Every other time (and I go to a lot of gun shows) it works and I get the gun right on the spot. Maybe some states have the three day wait but not in TN.
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Old January 23, 2009, 04:01 PM   #141
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I've never seen those "wink wink nudge" tables in the back. Ive never seen dealers selling at tables without NICS checks. I have seen guys waliking around with a rifle with a card on the barrel saying "for sale". While I havent been to every gun show there is, I do go to every one that is in driving distance, and A few in other states when I've been traveling on business.

I think some of the dealers are in favor of closing this non-exsistant loophole because it would make more business for them. Getting rid of the competition. Imagine how much money a dealer could make if they charged say, $15 for every NICS call in? I think it adds up to a pretty hefty amount at the end of the show, or end of the year if guns can no longer be sold privately. To some dealers, dollars are King. After all, they are in busness to make money, not protect rights.

If ya want to find the problem, just follow the trail of dollars and cents.
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Old January 23, 2009, 04:15 PM   #142
Glenn E. Meyer
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I agree that money is part of it. I searched but couldn't find an ad that some gun stores here contributed to limit gun shows way back when. Said store once yelled at me when I asked if they would do an FFL transfer. We don't do such!!

I also have seen the table described and guys who walk around with the sign in the barrel of two long guns with two in their belt. When they sell them, they go to the trunk and get more.

So all things have some validity.
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Old January 23, 2009, 04:20 PM   #143
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If the supposed goal is to stop transfers ONLY at gun shows....

So who maintains all of these records? Without proof that you went to a FFL and had him run a NICS on a specific gun for a specific person, how can you prove to the cops that you actually did it when they come knocking a week later? How can the cops prove you didn't when they haul you to court? If you sell the gun a few days later to someone, how do you prove you didn't make the deal at the gun show?

Either it is a complete "all transfers through FFL" or it is unenforceable.
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Old January 23, 2009, 04:26 PM   #144
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So who maintains all of these records? Without proof that you went to a FFL and had him run a NICS on a specific gun for a specific person, how can you prove to the cops that you actually did it when they come knocking a week later and/or how can the cops prove you didn't when they haul you to court?
Probably the FFL would maintain the record after he charged you for doing it. My personal dreamed up deal would be a computer kiosk at all gun shows that anyone could log into, pay for the transaction with a credit card and then enter the buyers info (from an ID card) and would get a yeah or nay from the check. The machine could print a receipt with a control number or something to use later if needed as proof you ran the check. Or it could send the seller an email with such info. I see this as no different than the checks that ATMs and such do on your credit/debit cards when they are used.

Hmm, maybe a business model here?
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Old January 23, 2009, 05:25 PM   #145
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The machine could print a receipt with a control number or something to use later if needed as proof you ran the check.
So you are now requiring everyone that sells a gun to maintain a paper trail forever?


I'd rather convert my C&R license to include all firearms with the clause I could only dispose of modern firearms through an 01-FFL. In other words, make my "collectors" license a true collectors license where I can buy anything.
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Old January 23, 2009, 07:03 PM   #146
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you have seen Im sure EXACTLY what I have seen, you know that *smirk smirk nudge nudge* "table in the back full of Lorcins, Ravens and Tecs.
Well, actually no, at least not for the last 41 years that I can recall. Except back then there was some kind of pot metal revolver and nobody paid much attention to them nor the sellers except for folks who couldn't afford the $20 guns. But your reply reminds me of the big flap about "Saturday night specials". It occurs to me that an underlying principle whenever such questions come up the real question is "what class of people should be denied civil rights in this country, to what extent and how can we justify it so that the others don't take offense?"
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Old January 23, 2009, 07:27 PM   #147
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So you are now requiring everyone that sells a gun to maintain a paper trail forever?
Well, that doesn't sound good does it? Maybe that wouldn't be an issue with the BATFE in the scenario you mentioned. Or maybe the only practical way to do it would be to run it thru a FFL. Would cost I am sure. Actually how to implement it would be another thread maybe, I don't know. Good point!
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Old January 23, 2009, 10:45 PM   #148
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In California a few years back, it came to pass that all gun sales had to be thru a FFL dealer. A few FFL dealers will set up at the shows to do the papper work and hold the gun for ten days. For this service they charge any where from $25 to $50 and this is on top of the $25 the state gets in DROS(Dealer Record Of Sales) fees. And to buy a handgun you must possess a Handgun Safety Certificate Card, which requires a written test and another $25.00, and has to be renewed every three years. I hope this is not the model they use, when change comes. orchidhunter
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Old January 24, 2009, 10:02 AM   #149
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letsnotpretendtheproblemdoesntexist
Okay, the problem exist. People sell guns at guns without performing background checks in order to sell to those who can not pass a background check. You've been witness to this on multiple occasions, or at least that's been the impression I get from your previous postings. What have you done about it? Did you contact the BATF with your concerns? If yes, what action was taken? Did you notify the organizer(s) of the gunshows where this is happening? Did you notify any local legal authorities? Could the problem be solved with enforcement of current laws rather than with new legislation?
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Old January 24, 2009, 10:27 AM   #150
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Did you contact the BATF with your concerns?

He he he...now I know that in one instance, after 8 shows, the BATF gave one guy a desist letter and he stopped doing it...

So he only got to sell his Lorcins 8 times

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Could the problem be solved with enforcement of current laws rather than with new legislation?
No

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