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Old January 20, 2009, 02:25 AM   #26
boatmonkey82
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correct me if im wrong but it sounds like ... if i got to a junk yard to buy a part i can only do so thur a local repair shop , or was this a bad example ?
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Old January 20, 2009, 02:35 AM   #27
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Quote:
correct me if im wrong but it sounds like ... if i got to a junk yard to buy a part i can only do so thur a local repair shop , or was this a bad example ?
Think of it like this:

You want to sell you 1999 Toyota Camry to you neighbor in order to do so you would have to go to your local delaer to process the transaction.

If you want to use Autoparts it would go like this:

Your friend Joe has a water pump for a car you own and he doesn't want it so he is selling it to you. In order for him to transfer said water pump you need to go to your local parts store to process the transaction.

It is about face to face sales being prohibited without going through a dealer.
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Old January 20, 2009, 10:38 AM   #28
bikerbill
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Just sold two handguns to a lovely lady in Austin ... FTF, no taxes, no paperwork, no FFLs involved ... the gunshow loophole, as I understand it, is aimed at FTF sales at gunshows that don't go through the Feds ... but closing that tiny door would close a far larger one, like the sale I just completed ... this is one of those slippery slopes you don't even want to see started ... no to govt intrusion in my private business ...
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Old January 20, 2009, 10:53 AM   #29
buzz_knox
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Quote:
the gunshow loophole, as I understand it, is aimed at FTF sales at gunshows that don't go through the Feds ... but closing that tiny door would close a far larger one, like the sale I just completed ... this is one of those slippery slopes you don't even want to see started ... no to govt intrusion in my private business ...
The legislation to close the loophole typically is so onerous and expansive that all gun shows would be shut down, private sales would themselves would be banned, gatherings of a few shooters would be classified as gun shows, or some combination of the above.
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Old January 20, 2009, 11:30 AM   #30
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orchidhunter said:

Quote:
Well, I got to get back under bridge, here comes one on foot. orchidhunter
TROLL. SELF ADMITTED TROLL.

I am all for discussing the topic of the so called gun-show loophole. Unlike many here I believe there is such a thing and it is a problem, but not in the way the antis say. I believe it exists because enough of the voting public believe it does and it is a problem because that same voting public will support legislation on the matter.

Sorry folks, this is going to be like fighting the tide. The best you can do is to redirect it. The tone in Washington is almost entirely against us. Standing our ground on this will cause us to be brushed aside entirely. I would suggest we bite the bullet and forward legislation that would provide for publicly funded checks at organized gun shows for all while protecting FTF transactions outside of that event.

As long as 60 Minutes can show footage of someone looking like he is a gang banger, Aryan Nation member, Hells Angel, "suspected terrorist" etc. buying an "AK-47" at an "Arms Bazaar" in Middle America with no background check then this problem will exist. If we simply oppose it in its entirety then the legislation will be written to require FFLs for everything.
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Old January 20, 2009, 11:33 AM   #31
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Well, I would like to try and address this thoughtfully (and may get flamed) but I think I see the issue the Antis raise but it begs another question I will ask.

First, there is no such thing as a "Gun Show Loophole". That is a misnamed tag the issue has and it won't go away. The real issue is private sales. I think the Gun Show part creeps in because it seems that Gun Shows are where these sales seem to take place most visibly and publicly. I know they take place thru other means like the classified sections of some newspapers but I have been to many many gun shows where there are folks walking around or even sitting at tables in the show who will sell guns privately to anybody with the cash without a backgorund check.

What I think the antis fear (and I can see their point) is that private sales are a place where people who are not legally allowed to own or possess firearms can circumvent the background check and buy a firearm anyway.

What I don't know is how many criminals obtain their crime guns in this manner. I think for me that is the real issue. Is the "loophole" the major aveneue where criminals get their crime guns. If so, then the policy argument changes. If it becomes a crime to sell anyone a gun who has not had a background check will it deter those who would sell to anybody from doing so?
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Last edited by Tennessee Gentleman; January 20, 2009 at 11:44 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old January 20, 2009, 11:36 AM   #32
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Quote:
The legislation to close the loophole typically is so onerous and expansive that all gun shows would be shut down
buzzknox, How would this legislation shut down gun shows? The vast majority of sales go thru dealers anyway right? The show itself gets no cut from the private sales other than an admission ticket.
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Old January 20, 2009, 11:58 AM   #33
garryc
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Most of the FTF transactions I've done have been in the parking lot. You have to be careful about those. If you buy a gun don't resell it that day. You might just be dealing with an ATF set up.
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Old January 20, 2009, 12:03 PM   #34
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Yeah, for some reason most of my FTF deals have been in a Wal-Mart parking lot. Meeting halfway in different towns, Wal-Mart always seems to be a place that both parties could find easy.
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Old January 20, 2009, 12:12 PM   #35
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As I said most criminal get their guns through a straw purchaser as it is. Adding a prohibition on FTF sale is just adding one more law that the criminals will violate.

It may keep a few guns out of the hands of those that are prohibited but not that many. Most who want guns but are disqualified will continue to use a straw purchaser as they do now.
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Old January 20, 2009, 12:30 PM   #36
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Just for reference...

All the shows I have been to in New York have the requirement of a check for ALL firearm purchases, both long arms and handguns. We have a permit system for handgun ownership but not one for long arms where you can easily do FTF sales across the state with no paperwork. You are not allowed to circumvent the check by doing the sale in the parking lot outside the show.

It seems to work fine.
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Old January 20, 2009, 12:41 PM   #37
Al Norris
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From the latest GunFacts 5.0 (pages 19 & 20 of the pdf):

Myth: Gun shows are supermarkets for criminals

Fact: Only 0.7% of convicts bought their firearms at gun shows. 39.2% obtained them from illegal street dealers.(86)
Fact: Less than 1% of “crime guns” were obtained at gun shows(87). This is a reduction from a 1997 study that found 1.7% - 2% of guns used in criminal offenses were purchased at gun shows.(88)
Fact: The FBI concluded in one study that no firearms acquired at gun shows were used to kill cops. “In contrast to media myth, none of the firearms in the study were obtained from gun shows.”(89)
Fact: Only 5% of metropolitan police departments believe gun shows are a problem.(90)
Fact: Only 3.5% of youthful offenders reported that they obtained their last handgun at a gun show.(91)
Fact: 93% of guns used in crimes are obtained illegally (i.e., not at gun stores or gun shows).(92)
Fact: At most, 14% of all firearms traced in investigations were purchased at gun shows.(93) But this includes all firearms that the police traced, regardless of if they were used in crimes or not, which overstates the acquisition rate.
Fact: Gun dealers are federally licensed. They are bound to stringent rules for sales that apply equally whether they are dealing from a storefront or a gun show.(94)
Fact: Most crime guns are either bought off the street from illegal sources (39.2%) or through family members or friends (39.6%).(95)
_______________

86 Bureau of Justice Statistics, “Firearm Use by Offenders”, February 2002
87 Ibid
88 National Institute of Justice, the research arm of the U.S. Department of Justice. According to an NIJ study released in December 1997 "Homicide in Eight U.S. Cities"
89 U.S. Department of Justice, "Violent Encounters: A Study of Felonious Assaults on Our Nation's Law Enforcement Officers", August 2006
90 Center to Prevent Handgun Violence survey of 37 police departments in large cities, reported in a CPHV report titled “On the Front Line: Making Gun Interdiction Work”, February 1998
91 Timothy S. Bynum, Todd G. Beitzel, Tracy A. O’Connell & Sean P. Varano, “Patterns in Gun Acquisition and Use by Youthful Offenders in Michigan”, 1999
92 BATF, 1999
93 BATF, June 2000, covers only July 1996 through December 1998
94 BATF, 2000
95 “Firearm use by Offenders”, Bureau of Justice Statistics, November 2001

_______________

Now you have some of the facts, by which to attack any such legislation, on its merits... or lack thereof.

Tennessee, the last couple of bills (which never made it out of committee) were stuffed with a bunch of crud. Like declaring any more than 3 gun owners to be a "gun show," if all they did was to meet and discuss guns (just as one example - there are many more equally appalling "rules").
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Old January 20, 2009, 12:45 PM   #38
Hkmp5sd
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Quote:
It seems to work fine.
Here in Florida, we have a system where anyone can sell a firearm to anyone they think can legally purchase it at any location they desire.

Seems to work fine.

Wonder why my state has such a low gun crime rate than those that don't allow free trade.
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Old January 20, 2009, 12:55 PM   #39
kayakersteve
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Maybe orchid thinks this is the Brady website

He must be confused - happens this time of year!! Must be overwhelmed with the political times! Oh well, if he checks back, here is their website:
http://www.bradycampaign.org/
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Old January 20, 2009, 12:56 PM   #40
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Quote:
Just for reference...

All the shows I have been to in New York have the requirement of a check for ALL firearm purchases, both long arms and handguns. We have a permit system for handgun ownership but not one for long arms where you can easily do FTF sales across the state with no paperwork. You are not allowed to circumvent the check by doing the sale in the parking lot outside the show.

It seems to work fine.
Seems to work fine for what? The cost to operate the system is tremendous, the burden is carried by the law abiding people of NY, the criminals simply ignore the "mandatory registration" and the registration of firearms and the related trace data has been used to solve....wait for it.... ZERO crimes since it was enacted in 1936.
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Old January 20, 2009, 12:56 PM   #41
Al Norris
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Now, having laid out the facts about gun shows, everyone should go and download the GunFacts pdf. There is so much more very well researched information contained in this, to counter almost every new law proposed.

What good that does, is often in question. But just writing to your congress people without the facts at hand, is less than worthless.

Last item on this particular agenda.

Prohibiting private transfers, nationwide, at gun shows does in fact lead to nationwide prohibition of FTF transfers. It is only a short "hop" from one to the other. All in the name of "fighting crime," which it does not do. It merely makes another class of activity into a criminal class. Do we really need more criminals?
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Old January 20, 2009, 02:41 PM   #42
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Facts mean nothing. The opposition is arguing based on emotion and will win because there is one indisputable fact:

Anyone can buy a gun FTF without a check at a gunshow in most of the nation.

We all know that the actual occurrence of crimes with weapons from gun shows is next to nothing but that does not matter. Argue those facts all you want, public opinion is based on emotion. The emotion is against this practice and the party most supportive of restrictions controls the Legislative and Executive branches.

The FACT is the legislation is going to come and we can not stop it but we can craft it if we act first.
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Old January 20, 2009, 02:50 PM   #43
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"A Republic...if you can keep it" - Ben Franklin

Sorry Ben, we tried.
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Old January 20, 2009, 02:51 PM   #44
vranasaurus
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Quote:
Facts mean nothing. The opposition is arguing based on emotion and will win because there is one indisputable fact:

Anyone can buy a gun FTF without a check at a gunshow in most of the nation.

We all know that the actual occurrence of crimes with weapons from gun shows is next to nothing but that does not matter. Argue those facts all you want, public opinion is based on emotion. The emotion is against this practice and the party most supportive of restrictions controls the Legislative and Executive branches.

The FACT is the legislation is going to come and we can not stop it but we can craft it if we act first
If we somehow support a bill that prevents FTF sales at a gunshow it will simply be used as a foot in the door to prevent all FTF sales.

The past has shown us that gun control is a slippery slope. When newly passed laws do nothing to prevent crime, as both sides know they won't, the antis will always seek to pass more. We must fight every attempt to curtail the sale and possession of firearms as there are already to many restrictions on the books.

If we give an inch now the other side will eventually use that inch to get a mile.
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Old January 20, 2009, 02:57 PM   #45
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Private sales will never go away - I will willingly break the law if it comes down to it.
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Old January 20, 2009, 03:14 PM   #46
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I have a proposed solution to some of these problems, which I'm sure a bunch of you guys wont agree with, but hear me out.

I'm thinking that a large number of guns used by criminals are obtained through straw purchases. While illegal already, a person selling the gun shortly after buying it, pretty much needs to be caught red handed, or snitched out to be arrested for said crime. The people "legally" buying these guns to straw sell them need to be held accountable. The easiest way I can see to do this is, ready, to have guns registered to their owners. Easy now, I know many of you dont like this idea, but if your not going to be using the gun in an illegal way, whats the big deal? That wouldn't prevent us from owning guns or limit in any way our use of them, it would simply hold people responsible for the guns they bought ending up in the hands of criminals. FTF transfers/sales would require one to go to your local FFL dealer with the other person involved in the transfer and simply get a backround check, and to have the registration transfered to the new owner. All previously bought guns need not be registered, only guns bought after the law was put in place.

Why is that such a bad idea I ask?
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Old January 20, 2009, 03:23 PM   #47
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Quote:
Easy now, I know many of you dont like this idea, but if your not going to be using the gun in an illegal way, whats the big deal?
A few things you have obviously overlooked.

1) It is already possible to chase down the chain of possession of a firearm. Once recovered, the agency checks the serial number with the maker, follow that to the distributor, then to the FFL who sold it, and can find the first purchaser from there. If that purchaser does not say who they transferred it to, then even if the gun were registered the trail ends.

2) Registration is ALWAYS step one of any confiscation effort. While they can still track the guns down, the intermediate steps are a form of protection. The moment you allow full registration, you give a list that can be run down if they ever decide to even give gun owners grief (even if ownership is legal).

3) It flat won't stop crime. Period. The person can always say "oh, I didn't even know the gun was stolen." What can be done? Not a single thing.

Sorry, registration or a ban on private sales is not the magic wand to crime reduction that you are looking for. It gives the antis something they dearly love for absolutely no benefit to our side.
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Old January 20, 2009, 03:37 PM   #48
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Cerick, Re-Read post #40 to see how a 73 year experiment in gun registration has worked out so far.
(short summary, SEVENTY-THREE YEARS of taxpayer dollars thrown down a black-hole to track law abiding citizens to no useful purpose).
Additionally (adding insult to injury) stolen firearms, even those not used in a crime, were never returned to their rightful owners even though the registration system told police who those rightful owners were.
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Old January 20, 2009, 04:02 PM   #49
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Quote:
The past has shown us that gun control is a slippery slope.
AWB had a sunset clause.

3 Day waiting period expired with instacheck.

More Americans can carry a gun legally than in several generations.

Sorry but the "things only go downhill" argument does not hold water.
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Old January 20, 2009, 04:16 PM   #50
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So, what you're saying is that because things have been getting better on some fronts, they will ALWAYS continue to get better?

And nothing will ever change that?

Sorry, but that kind of complacent indifference is a recipe for absolute disaster.

The only reason the AWB had a sunset clause in it is because a Republican minority that was MUCH stronger than it is today managed to force it into the bill.
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