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Old January 9, 2009, 11:01 PM   #1
Ponch2221
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#9 Shot

Today I was at the local gun store/range with a friend and his wife. We were talking about the use of a 12ga for home protection. The feller that works at the store told my friend's wife that she should use #9 shot because getting hit with it at close range is like getting slugged plus the pellets are so small they won't go into the neighbor's house. I understand the second part, but is it really as effective as a slug up close? I'm only familiar with 00 and slugs, I'm not familiar with any hunting loads, but 9 is so small.
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Old January 9, 2009, 11:12 PM   #2
Scattergun Bob
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Ponch2221

Gunshop rumor and myth are not the standards to gauge your personal defense on.

This is a very difficult subject because of its complex nature. It is very difficult to totally understand all of the influences that mould tougher to form the RIGHT defensive plan.

Here is a link for a couple of tests, perhaps they can enlighten and educate.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm - about shotgun penetration

and

http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/ballistics_shotgun.html - go to the bottom and view some of the test blocks.

Why don't you look at some of these and come back with your thoughts, If you do the work, your opinion will be more valid than some who simply listen to rumor and myth.

Good Luck & Be Safe
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Last edited by Scattergun Bob; January 9, 2009 at 11:45 PM.
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Old January 9, 2009, 11:26 PM   #3
Ponch2221
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Quote:
Unless you expect to be attacked by little birds, do not use birdshot. Use 00 Buck. It will do the job.


Thanks!
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Old January 10, 2009, 02:23 AM   #4
banditt007
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i'm in total agreement w/ scatter gun bob on this one.

remember too 00 buck in a 12 gauge is considered the premier as a 'one shot dropper'. i can hear the peanut gallery now...but but wait it will go through walls... well how about all the people that use a standard 9mm handgun for home defense. tell them they can't use it b/c it has more penetration through structure than a 00 buck pellet! the power of the shotgun comes from being hit w/ 9 projectiles all at once each creating its own wound track. each pellet individually is far out weighed by a standard 9mm bullet. and are shot at very close to the same speed. plus the 9mm has a copper jacket, whereas the buck shot pellets are usually a soft lead. on top of that a spherical shape (of the buckshot pellet) is not the best for penetration.

Its always spoken about like WELL ITS A SHOTGUN OF COURSE IT GOES THROUGH 235235235 WALLS IN THE HOUSE. Yet the 9mm is spoken about as if its only O.K. and nothing spectacular... funny how what you hear, and what is the truth are two different things!
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Old January 10, 2009, 02:26 AM   #5
Smallgame2100
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If you want to be safe for distance and still be effective, why not use a #2 or #4 shot?
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Old January 10, 2009, 10:04 AM   #6
USA123456789
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At close distance with #9 shot the bad guy or target with be hurt pretty bad. /there is almost 700 pelets in one of those shells. Go out to your local gun range and pattern those lil things and compare it to your 00 or 000 just try.
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Old January 10, 2009, 10:11 AM   #7
Scattergun Bob
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Usa123456789

Been there, done that. And nice patterns on a piece of paper tell me WHAT about shooting humans?
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Old January 10, 2009, 10:33 AM   #8
svenrh
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hmmm...
Lots of possible issues and discussion about birdshot effectiveness on humans. Pretty much cut and dry about what buckshot will do to a human. I think I would defend my family's life and my own with a proven stopper, not what so and so at the gun shop may think is true or not. I had this discussion many times at my foray selling guns, and it is hard to argue with proof vs speculation. My point was always if you actually are in a situation that you would have to shoot someone, would you rather be glad you had 00 buck that would put the bg down for sure, or would you rather be happy that you had birdshot that wouldn't overpenetrate, but may or may not work because of distance, furniture or doorways etc in the way. Sure you would stand a chance of getting a few birdshot pellts in the bg, but if you did not hit him square on and at very close range, there is little guarantee of a one shot stop. Usually if even one buckshot pellet hits someone anywhere, they are going to know it in a big way.
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Old January 10, 2009, 12:10 PM   #9
mwar410
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I use # 9 fro all my target loads, on paper and boxes it is devasting at close range. you would be hard pressed to tell the difference between shot and the wad ( with a tight choke ). I've used a cedar fence post for instruction, and that was quite impressive of the damage # 9 causes. That was shot at about 15', went in small and the back was gone. Granted it wasn't solid green wood, but it gave you a good idea of what would happen.
I 've to been pondering the idea of switching from a 9mm to a shotgun for HD. The Best Defense ( cable show) showed a scenerio of 4 walls spaced apart about 6-8', they used a 9mm, 45cal., OO buck, and birdshot?.
The 9mm obviously went through the 3 walls before it started to drop through the fourth. OO buck went through 3 walls but didn't carry much energy.
I'm thinking a larger birdshot is what I'll be using for HD, for my family's sake.
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Old January 10, 2009, 03:02 PM   #10
RetiredLawman
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As a retired cop, I can tell you that though birdshot might not kill a burglar, it will certainly change his intentions. I've seen fully loaded crack and meth heads attitude's changed considerably with #6 shot. It is not my intention to kill anyone. I feel protected very well with dove and quail loads. To say that you will kill someone is a terrible thing, even if the person is trying to do you harm. It is my intent to stop the crime. Let the courts fool with the punishment--if they will.

I understand the intent of the Box of Truth. It has accurate information. I want to protect what is mine. I don't care to execute a thief. Birdshot is OK for me.
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Old January 11, 2009, 08:30 PM   #11
hogdogs
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As a ROWDY REDNECK, I can tell you that if you can plant the muzzle on his chest, the wad and percussion are enuff to kill 'em deader than a fence post but if you could do that you could just pommel his grill with the muzzle and likely "change his intentions". Now if you need to approach a situation with any firearm "YOU NEED TO USE ENUFF FIREPOWER TO ELIMINATE THE THREAT"
Short of an apartment, you are very likely going to penetrate much more than 2 sheets of gyp board to put projectiles in your neighbor's home. If you hit your target COM you have already initiated the slowing of velocity.
I wouldn't even use 7 1/2 on an errant dog!
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Old January 11, 2009, 09:01 PM   #12
nutty ned
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I saw a deer killed with #9 shot from a 20 ga, it will do the job; however, I might up grade to #4 shot.
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Old January 11, 2009, 09:21 PM   #13
Ruger4570
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I would PREFER to use Buck Shot but in my place of abode I could not in good consious. If the shot penetrated more than one wall I could be taking out a neighbor or one of their kids. I use #4 birdshot in my shotgun, BUT, I use the Remington Turkey loads with copper plated shot, 1 3/4 oz. at 1300 fps. I think at across a small room it should do the job without an undue chance of hurting a neighbor.
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Old January 12, 2009, 12:07 AM   #14
zippy13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RetiredLawman
I understand the intent of the Box of Truth. It has accurate information. I want to protect what is mine. I don't care to execute a thief. Birdshot is OK for me.
As an old school architect with 20-years specializing in forensic investigations, IMHO, the Box of Truth is interesting; but, not an indicator of the number of walls a given load will penetrate. It should be used only for relative comparisons like wet newsprint or plastic water jugs.

I suspect gypsum wallboard was selected because it's easy to work with and inexpensive. From the pics, it appears the Box of Truth uses 5/8-inch thick fire-code gyp-board, where typical partitions use standard 1/2-inch. Not only is the Box of Truth gyp-board thicker, it's stronger (fire-code is reinforced). Also, the gyp-board in the Box of Truth is closely spaced allowing a domino effect from panel to panel. Other factors, including perimeter support, various wall finishes and cavity insulation contribute to differences between the Box of Truth and real world walls and partitions.
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Old January 12, 2009, 01:10 AM   #15
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I totally agree with zippy13, this test IS flawed. Actually A lot of LE departments have conducted very serious testing on all areas of scattergun performance and pellet terminal ballistics.

I do not have a links to share that type of data with you all, This is as close to real as I can find on the Internet. If someone has a better site, PLEASE, give it up!

I have stated before, there is much wrong with the testing protocols of "box of truth" however, it is 100% better than rumor and myth. And I tip my hat to Old Painless for his effort.
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Old January 12, 2009, 01:18 AM   #16
mskdgunman
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As a current LEO, I have to submit the opinion that it's a bad idea to shoot someone in self defense with something that does not have the likelyhood of killing them. Remember, (at least in FL) discharging a firearm at another person is considered deadly force whether or not you INTENDED to kill them. If deadly force is not warranted and all you wanted to do was scare the BG away, you apparently were not scared enough to fire the weapon in the first place. With attorneys the way they are, you shoot some burgler with #9 shot not intending to kill him, but instead blind the poor misguided youth with a load of pellets to the face, look for a law suit to follow, and possibly prosecution if you make the mistake and tell anyone that you just wanted to scare the guy. If it's bad enough to have to shoot someone in self defense, shoot them enough, with the right thing and with the intent of ending the confrontation as quickly as possible

Relying on birdshot to protect your life and the life of your family is a bet I would not be willing to take. The smallest I would go for the house is #4 buckshot and that would depend on where I lived. Currently mine is stoked with low recoil 9 pellet 00 Buck.
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Old January 12, 2009, 10:40 AM   #17
skeeter1
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Quote:
"but is it really as effective as a slug up close? I'm only familiar with 00 and slugs, I'm not familiar with any hunting loads, but 9 is so small."
It will probably work, but wouldn't be my first choice. That would be #4 buckshot. It also probably won't go through the walls of a house, and I'd rather use #4 buck than #9 birdshot. #00 buck, most peoples favorite, is probably too much for HD. That *will* go through the walls of a house. Just my opinion.
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