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Old January 6, 2009, 03:01 PM   #51
Keltyke
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I can easily pass you by looking at the stars, then pull my gun out and come behind you and place my gun right to your head, and YOU will not get a chance to draw!!!
Don't bet your life on it.
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Old January 6, 2009, 03:10 PM   #52
George PT-111
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lol, unless you are a Bruce LEE or Chuck Norris, I don't believe you
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Old January 6, 2009, 03:12 PM   #53
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unless you are a Bruce LEE or Chuck Norris, I don't believe you

What part don't you believe?
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Old January 6, 2009, 03:14 PM   #54
George PT-111
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read above what keltyke said.
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Old January 6, 2009, 03:18 PM   #55
Brian Pfleuger
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Well, I don't know Keltyke but I would prefer not to bet my life on my ability to sneak up on ANYONE.
Which is partly why I make my money the honest way.
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Old January 6, 2009, 03:22 PM   #56
George PT-111
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Ok Peete, it's not a rocket science ok. BG most likely will have the weapon handy, and ready so if he is sneaking up from behind YOU DON"T HAVE A CHANCE. Not only that, the often BG does these things the better he gets, he learns a trick or two on sneaking up on people.

If it can happened it will happened.
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Old January 6, 2009, 03:28 PM   #57
Glenn E. Meyer
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I humbly suggest:

1. Decide what outcome you want - survive, save your money at risk of your life, make a statement about your self-image and how you save society.
2. Take action for that outcome. Don't complain if goes awry.
3. Before you posture on your ability to be observant, handle this or that kind of fight - please consider some serious FOF training that explores how you do act under stress and how you can be taken unaware.

If you have proven such ability, then you said document it here - rather than saying you could do XY or Z.

Having done the NTI and several FOF classes designed to put the civilian in some of the situations stated, I am not sanguine about some of the posturing of spider sense or ability.
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Old January 6, 2009, 03:58 PM   #58
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lol, unless you are a Bruce LEE or Chuck Norris, I don't believe you
Your belief or disbelief does not change the fact.

And on that note, I am outta here and George, you're ignored.
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Old January 6, 2009, 04:04 PM   #59
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its actualy a good question. in all the many robberies i have taken no one has been shot just giving up their property. BUT it has happened several times in this fine city i work. most recently that i can think of a guy went into a gas station and pointed a gun at the clerk. the clerk gave the bad guy the money with no problems. the bad guy then shot him for no reason. so it is a good question. with just one bad guy do you try to distract his attention by throwing your wallet six feet to his side and go for your gun when he is looking at the wallet? more than one guy with more than one gun do you go for your gun and hope for really really good trauma doctors in the ER? that would be a decission one would have to make for ones self when in that situation. cause everyone is john wayne when talking but most are just the opposite when actualy in the situation.
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Old January 6, 2009, 04:46 PM   #60
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Fact and opinion differ. Evidence would be interesting. I'm not trying to be rude but I know a fair bit about attention and postulating that one cannot be taken unawares doesn't jive with what we know about it.
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Old January 6, 2009, 05:24 PM   #61
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Add a wrinkle to this scenario

Lots of heated discussions about what we'd all do. So take this wrinkle. The below is my nightmare, why i carry, and i still don't have a good response.

So now you're walking with your wife, after seeing a show maybe, and these 4 guys pop up out of dark stoops in front, behind, your situational awareness couldn't spot them beforehand. The guns are pointed at both your wife and you. What do you do?

Is there any difference in your reaction? how can you save her when you're busy saving yourself? How good are you? does she carry too? Are the BG serious or just punks or can you tell? Do you give them your wallet?

Truth - when they get the drop on you, no matter how, your options are reduced to bad and worse. Compliance is bad, for all the reasons already stated. But dying, and getting your wife shot or killed, is worse. Somebody in that scenario is getting shot if you draw.
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Old January 6, 2009, 05:33 PM   #62
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Once the wife is brought into the realm... It is fight to the death! If we were both to escape with our lives and I had done nothing to protect her, she is gonna make my life a miserable hell! "YOU HAD YOUR GUN AND DID NOTHING???"
First move is to put the wife down... SHE HATES THAT PART The reaction of the BG's is likely astonishment when one victim jumps the other...
Then I commence to fight to the death with any and all weapons available to me...
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Old January 6, 2009, 05:37 PM   #63
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Truth - when they get the drop on you, no matter how, your options are reduced to bad and worse. Compliance is bad, for all the reasons already stated. But dying, and getting your wife shot or killed, is worse. Somebody in that scenario is getting shot if you draw.
You're right about that for sure. It all comes down your goal. My goal is to minimize losses. Unless I have a VERY strong feeling that I'm getting shot no matter what, I comply. It's already bad. You're behind the curve and, when guns are pointed at you, you're NOT getting back ahead of that curve. Your last sentence is the key. If you draw, somebody gets shot. Most likely multiple "somebodies" and most likely both you and your wife. I personally don't care if the BGs live or die, I want to maximize my odds of living, preferably without injury. The most probable action leading to a safe outcome is compliance.
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Old January 6, 2009, 05:43 PM   #64
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I just realized!!!
I make a real sorry example as the "proper victim" Kinda like when some dog postures up on one certain "catch dog" bulldog I own... She is the greatest dopey looking bulldog with not a mean bone in her body but if a dog postures (no matter their size) she is gonna commence to whoopin butt and taking names!
Brent
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Old January 6, 2009, 05:43 PM   #65
Glenn E. Meyer
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BTW, compliance has bounds as Pax once listed. For example, going with them, on your knees with the back of your head to them - may not be the way to go.

However, the point is survival or is the point 'ego'?

If your wife gets mad at you because you didn't kick butt but you are both unhurt (if robbed of cash), then next time - let her duke it out and you scamper off for help.
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Old January 6, 2009, 05:45 PM   #66
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Glenn, I never learned that "scamper" technique...
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Old January 6, 2009, 05:47 PM   #67
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BTW, compliance has bounds as Pax once listed. For example, going with them, on your knees with the back of your head to them - may not be the way to go.

However, the point is survival or is the point 'ego'?

Exactly, there comes a point where there's nothing left to gamble. "Turn around and get on your knees." is definitely at or beyond that point.
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Old January 6, 2009, 05:52 PM   #68
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glen i like it, after all are we not in the days of equality among the sexes? its time she takes one for the team.
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Old January 6, 2009, 05:52 PM   #69
George PT-111
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I tell you what, it pretty scary to deal w. something like that b/c you never know how it will turn out. I just hope that non of us would have to deal with that
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Old January 6, 2009, 06:02 PM   #70
hogdogs
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Another worthy point about Mrs.hogdogs... She isn't some mousy little thing. Likely in a mugging she is going to commence, in one breath, to cuss out the deviant subjects and order me to kill them! More than once I have had to pull her off of guys! There have been other times she has been mad because I didn't take her side in situations (back was sore for a month after those weeks in bowsers house)... It didn't do my case anygood when I tell her the reason was because she was out of line and/or off base in the situation...
She has "MEAN MOMMA" genes!
Brent
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Old January 6, 2009, 06:24 PM   #71
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One of the things that seriously complicates any discussion like this is the fact that after an attack, particularly one in which the victim cooperated, the victim often has a significant ego investment in believing that there was nothing else he could do other than cooperate. By necessity, most crime survivors who cooperate with their attackers are very adamant about that, but this belief may not always be congruent with physical reality. That's not to say crime victims lie about their encounters, but the human ego strongly protects itself. For many people, the only way they can live with the memory of the crime and their cooperation with it, is to cling tenaciously to their own powerlessness. To support or enable that belief is often (not always) to support a lie. But it's the kind and compassionate thing to do anyway.

On the flip side, and equally difficult from a discussion standpoint, nobody in the world is capable of a ruthlessly accurate assessment of their own capabilities and alertness status. Some come closer than others, but they're rarely the people who believe themselves to be fully self-aware (see http://www.apa.org/journals/features/psp7761121.pdf for a discussion of how & why that might be true). Whenever someone opines, "Nobody would ever catch me off-guard," it's a 100% certainty that the person who is talking is nowhere near as alert as they think they are.

This isn't rhetoric, either. It's simply the truth. As a human animal, you are blind and inattentive a lot of the time, and you simply do not recognize that fact because -- well, because you're blind a lot of the time. It's simply the way you're wired.

A lot of us in the firearms world are passingly familiar with the phrases "tunnel vision" and "auditory exclusion." We tend to think of these phenomena as if they are solely the product of adrenal stress. That's not true. (See http://www.forcescience.org/fsinews/...ime-to-update/ for a great discussion of that.) Tunnel vision is a variant of a phenomena sometimes called "inattentional blindness", "sustained inattentional blindness", or "change blindness." These are all separate but closely-related ways to describe some specific failures in how the human brain perceives and stores information. Generally speaking, the most intensely we focus upon a task, or the more difficult the task becomes, the less we observe about the world around us.

Incidentally, it's why magicians are able to work their magic. A skilled sleight of hand performer takes advantage of these known weaknesses in human perception -- in fact, he often walks right through them. Repeatedly.

Sometimes this blindness can be quite striking, and even humorous. A few years back, some researchers won an Ig Nobel Prize for their study, "Gorillas in Our Midst: sustained inattentional blindness for dynamic events." The authors ingeniously demonstrated that when we pay attention to something, it's all too easy to overlook other events happening right in front of us -- even a woman in a gorilla suit. Standing right in the middle of a screen at which the subject is directly focused upon. And remaining there for five full seconds while the subject continues to focus on the screen. And beating her upper chest before walking off the screen. Utterly invisible to roughly half the very attentive and focused observers ...

(Oh, yeah, I know. Everyone reading this would be in the other half... )

The people in that study weren't unusual in any way. They were normal. Just as the posters in this thread are all normal. Guys, you can be taken by surprise. If you are determined to be tactical and safe, you owe it to yourself to have a plan to cope with situations where you ARE taken off guard, where you ARE suprised by an unanticipated event, where you AREN'T ahead of the game and magically in control of all circumstances. Because quite frankly, failing to be prepared to cope with this reality is living in a fantasy world.

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Old January 6, 2009, 06:33 PM   #72
George PT-111
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Cool post PAX. i don't know the scientific stuff, but i do know that the more often those Muggers do it the better they get at it. They practice too ya know, it's a two way steet.
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Old January 6, 2009, 07:07 PM   #73
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"thats some catch, that catch-22"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfA3ivLK_tE
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Old January 6, 2009, 07:50 PM   #74
George PT-111
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very cool alloy!
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Old January 6, 2009, 10:52 PM   #75
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My dad always told me this, When dealing with an armed robber who has you at gun point, if you decide to draw, you have to;

1)Find gun with your hand
2)Unclasp button/move clothing
3)Draw weapon
4)Aim (even quick target aquisition counts)
5)Pull Trigger


The BG has to
1) Pull Trigger.

How fast are you?



As for situational awareness goes, i give a stern look to anyone even looking in my direction, and if they are within ten or fifteen feet of me i VERY Loudly ask "Can I help you?" I get alot of looks like "what a psycho" and "man that guy is a dick" But i've never been mugged... I've never even been solicited for spare change! And my girlfriend loves it because she says she never worries about being bothered when we're together. (which has it's withdrawls, as she loves to shop and i HATE IT!!! But i ALWAYS go with her)


It comes down to this, if i don't know you, and you're walking toward me, Especially if you're between my 3:00 and 9:00 I'm going to address you, and ask your business. (I.E. Hey, do you need something?) and if i get anything other than, "nope just walking home" Then i move to my aggressive stance (which is, turn and face you with my hands free of pockets) and hold my ground until the person has either walked by or changed direction. I may sound like a bully but I just want to make it home every night and unlike them, I KNOW that i have no intention to hurt anyone. My Kickboxing teacher always said that when someone starts talking crap or acting tough, you should leave. But if you can't, and you're sure that a fight is iminent, Lose your mind and scream like a psycho! Go over the top and yell like a rabid Grizzly... Become the aggressor, but not in a provoking mannor. I've done this at countless parties when i was in highschool, and the drunk bad ass never knows what to think or do... They are in awe. They turn around and walk out, yes i may look like a moron. BUT I"M SAFE! I don't care what that stranger thinks about me. Because i'll probably never see them again, and i'll be unharmed.
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