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Old January 5, 2009, 09:22 PM   #26
onthejon55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by George PT-111
I have to agree w/ PeteZilla. I am a very cocky dude, I will fight anyone anywhere, but in this situation I woul just wait and see what happens next.
Good luck not getting shot in the head
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Old January 5, 2009, 09:52 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peetzakilla
That would be wise. It happens. If they don't have a weapon, you can run. If they have a knife you can run. You should, in both cases. If they have a gun what are you going to do? Run? No, they could shoot you. Fight? No, they could shoot you. If they have a gun, GIVE THEM YOUR WALLET! What makes any one think they can win a gun fight where the BG already has his gun out and they don't? Think about that for a minute.
Sorry, that's not what I was talking about. I was talking about your "nonviolent muggings" and "unarmed robbery".
1. Threaten with gun = violent and armed
2. Threaten with knife = violent and armed
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dictionary.com
vi⋅o⋅lence [vahy-uh-luhns]
-noun
1. swift and intense force: the violence of a storm.
2. rough or injurious physical force, action, or treatment: to die by violence.
3. an unjust or unwarranted exertion of force or power, as against rights or laws: to take over a government by violence.
4. a violent act or proceeding.
5. rough or immoderate vehemence, as of feeling or language: the violence of his hatred.
6. damage through distortion or unwarranted alteration: to do editorial violence to a text.
I'm gonna have to call BS, I don't think a mugging can be committed nonviolently. I want a specific example that isn't just a misunderstanding. It can be done unarmed, I realize, but I'm asking about the "nonviolent" part.

This might also come in handy:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dictionary.com
mug⋅ging [muhg-ing]
-noun
an assault or threat of violence upon a person, esp. with intent to rob.
Think about that for a minute.
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Old January 6, 2009, 02:13 AM   #28
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onthejon, why do you assume that you have a 50/50 percent chance of getting shot with compliance?

Peetzkilla is right. its stupid to draw on someone that has a bead on you, and should only be reserved as a last option...

Its not about proving a point, curbing the mugging rate, or any other gung ho crap some people can come up with. Its about saving your life... I say play the odds (which incidentally are not 50/50, and also incidentally not always to comply)
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Old January 6, 2009, 10:55 AM   #29
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bout 20 years ago i was robbed at gun point..mid day at a large mall.

was not aware at that time in my life and did not own a gun...but that said, knowing what i know know...even if i HAD been carrying and somehow got snucked up on ...there would have been no way to draw and fire. the grommet knew what he was doing and was a predator.

i gave him my wallet and lived...i honestly feel that had i had a gun and the training i do today...i still would have given him my wallet and lived.

the simple fact that i carry daily, now means my situational awareness is keeping me out of this kind of trouble. my head is up and the radar is on at all times.
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Old January 6, 2009, 10:58 AM   #30
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If you are armed you best better be more aware than ever. For sure you don't want a suprise & your weapon taken.
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Old January 6, 2009, 11:16 AM   #31
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
an assault or threat of violence upon a person, esp. with intent to rob.

Your own definition proves my point. The mere presence of a gun is not "violence". It most certainly is IMPLIED violence which is why you must act in a manner that keeps it implied. The goal is going home safe, not "justice", not "I'll show him who he's messing with..", "not pit my skills against any thugs...", not "maybe this will reduce the crime rate."

All that is great stuff, really it is, and I agree with the sentiment. However, when a gun is pointed at your head, the ONLY THING that matters is making sure your still breathing tomorrow. Once you're that far behind the curve your ONLY hope is that they won't pull the trigger and your only logical action is to do whatever it takes to maximize the odds that they won't pull the trigger. Pulling your own gun at that moment is the opposite of logical. It guarantees that they WILL pull the trigger and when it's 4 on 1 you are dead. You will not survive that situation. I doubt that your family will be talking about how there will be fewer muggings now since someone fought back.
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Old January 6, 2009, 11:23 AM   #32
Pbearperry
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muggings

Here are a few tips to protect yourself from muggings.They are not fool proof,but they will help.
1:When you leave the house,put yourself into condition Yellow mode right away.
2:Get off the stupid cell phone.
3:Be aware of your surroundings.
4: If you perceive trouble,attempt to move away and place your hand in the area of your firearm.
4:If the Trouble continues,take cover and while pulling your gun give loud verbal commands.
I have had to use these many times.When the bad guy perceives you as a hard target,many times he will flee.Are these things perfect.....no.But its better than having your head wedged way up your ass while on the phone.
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Old January 6, 2009, 11:33 AM   #33
George PT-111
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what kinda verbal warning do YOU give? Just currious.
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Old January 6, 2009, 11:37 AM   #34
Hondo11
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Lots of absolutes being thrown out in this thread.

Here's an example of a guy who was robbed by 2 badguys, one with a gun already drawn. He killed both of them without suffering any injuries.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=329962

There are also plenty of examples of people who complied and lived.

I'm not saying one is better than the other- each situation is completely unique- but you can't be making absolutes when you're talking about this stuff.
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Old January 6, 2009, 11:46 AM   #35
Brian Pfleuger
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but you can't be making absolutes when you're talking about this stuff.
You're right. If you draw your gun on 4 guys who have guns pointed at your head at point blank range there is a 99.99% chance you will die. It's not a guarantee.
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Old January 6, 2009, 11:52 AM   #36
ZeSpectre
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It would not have been a question of "killing for my wallet," it would be a question of DYING for your wallet.
No offense peetzakilla but this sort of thinking makes me want to scream in frustration at the skewed viewpoint.

The INSTANT someone threatens you for your wallet the event stops being about the property and starts being about the threat to your life. So this case is neither about "killing for your wallet" nor is it about "dieing for your wallet", it's about handling a direct threat to the victim not an argument over "stuff".
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Old January 6, 2009, 11:54 AM   #37
Hondo11
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Not everything has to be taken as a personal attack against you or your position. I simply stated that there is no one-size-fits-all response to anything. The folks who say they'd always draw are just as wrong as those who say you never should.
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Old January 6, 2009, 11:59 AM   #38
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
it's about handling a direct threat to the victim.
Yes it is, in a manner that makes it most likely that the victim walks away unharmed. When a BG has a gun to your head or, in this case, 4 BGs that ALL have a gun to your head what are the logical options?

You can:

1) Play hero, vigilante, "handle a direct threat", "pit your skill", any number of other descriptions.... and die

2) Comply and hope they don't kill you anyway.


When hope is all you have it really sucks but sometimes it IS all you have.
I'll repeat again, IN THIS PARTICULAR SITUATION, doing nothing, "complying", was obviously the correct course of action. The victims lost time and money, nothing else. The best outcome of a mugging is time and money lost. If you get in a defensive shooting, even one you "win", there's a world of legal and financial battles ahead. The best gunfight is one that didn't happen. Let's not go down the "He started the gunfight by pulling on me..." road. A gunfight doesn't start until someone pulls the trigger.
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Old January 6, 2009, 12:02 PM   #39
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo11
Not everything has to be taken as a personal attack against you or your position.
I didn't take it personally. I am serious as a gunfight. What ARE the odds of surviving a point blank 4 on 1 gunfight when the BGs are already drawn down and you are not? Do you think it's better than .001%? I don't.

Quote:
The folks who say they'd always draw are just as wrong as those who say you never should.
You're right about that too. I didn't say you should never draw. I said if someone has a gun to your head, never mind 4 some ones, and you draw, it's suicide. Who honestly believes otherwise?
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Old January 6, 2009, 12:07 PM   #40
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Relax, I made no commentary about HOW to handle the situation, I just wanted to clarify what the situation was about ("stuff" vs "your life").
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Old January 6, 2009, 12:10 PM   #41
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The whole idea of a 'non-violent' mugging baffles me. I'm not saying they don't exist. They do! There was a case of an MSNBC reporter who was recently mugged outside her hotel. The guy blocked her path and told her to give him $20. She gave him the $6 she had, and then said she felt bad because he "obviously needed $20 or he wouldn't have mugged her." (MORON)

I think we've been very conditioned to do what the BG tells us. We're constantly told to hand over the money so we don't get hurt. So even if they have nothing to threaten you with, most people comply anyway. Kind of amazing to me. Kind of like how people used to be conditioned to cooperate with hijackers because you'd just be taken somewhere and let go.

Is this the right approach in these situations? I guess if you're outsized and unarmed, perhaps it is. But I can't help but feel like we've collectively checked our nuts at the door, and left ourselves with more opportunities to become victims.
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Old January 6, 2009, 12:11 PM   #42
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
Not everything has to be taken as a personal attack against you or your position.
Quote:
Relax,...

I don't get it. Am I being rude or belligerent? I'm simply stating my opinion, same as you guys. I don't think your being personal or need to relax because you're telling me you disagree. What gives?
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Old January 6, 2009, 12:47 PM   #43
ZeSpectre
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It was the comment about "playing hero or vigilante" that set a certain tone for me.
Then again, this is "teh interwebz" so it's easy to misinterpret tone sometimes.

Last edited by ZeSpectre; January 6, 2009 at 01:10 PM. Reason: edit: tried to phrase it better.
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Old January 6, 2009, 12:58 PM   #44
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
When you start telling those who disagree with you that they are "playing hero or vigilante"
I listed those as optional reasons for a responding violently. I did not equate them with the direct quotes as used by others to describe their own actions:

Quote:
1) Play hero, vigilante, "handle a direct threat", "pit your skill", any number of other descriptions.... and die.
Four different reasons for acting plus an all inclusive 5th. Two of them provided by others. If you see the two provided by others as included in or described by "Play hero, vigilante...", it might tell you something about how you feel about those actions but it's not a connection I made directly.


Still, no one has answered the question:

Do you really believe that drawing on 4 guys that already have you covered is the wise thing to do? What makes you think you would survive that action? Do you plan on dying to prove that you're fed up with muggers getting away with their crimes? What is the logic in that action?
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Old January 6, 2009, 01:10 PM   #45
ZeSpectre
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peetzakilla,
Some folks would just rather go down fighting and knowing that they at least gave it a try. I'm not saying that's the smartest thing but I certainly understand especially since I had more than one instance back in the LE days where the "always fight, never give up" mentality carried me through far better than "capitulate" would have.
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Old January 6, 2009, 01:10 PM   #46
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A non-violent mugging is the same as an aggressive panhandler!
If it is a mugging/robbery than it is with violent overtones. If the mugger is unarmed then a robust "Take a hike Mike" is all I would start with. If he puts up his dukes he will be met with equal or greater force. with a knife I will attempt to draw a gun or my own knife while they think I am going for my valuables... If armed with a gun I suspect I would do the same tactics.
Besides that I am a great target for violence as I do not carry enuff cash etc. to satisfy their needs.
But to be approached by a knife or gun wielding BG is a drop in situational awareness...
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Old January 6, 2009, 01:17 PM   #47
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peetzakilla,
Some folks would just rather go down fighting and knowing that they at least gave it a try. I'm not saying that's the smartest thing but I certainly understand especially since I had more than one instance back in the LE days where the "always fight, never give up" mentality carried me through far better than "capitulate" would have.
I completely agree with that sentiment.

Don't you also agree that 4 guns pointed at your head is not likely to be one of those times that "always fight" is going to end well?

Doing nothing was OBVIOUSLY the right thing. The BGs took their stuff and left. If they'd been shot in the head for no reason then fighting back would have been right, since there was no survivable alternative. You have to read the situation and act accordingly. Like I said before, these EXACT people, in this EXACT situation were better off unarmed. If their guns had been found it could have been ugly. If they had attempted to draw, it WOULD have been ugly. Being unarmed and compliant was best for them. Being compliant is USUALLY best if someone has a gun to your head, unless there are signals telling you it's going to end badly regardless of your response, then you may have few if any other options besides fighting.
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Old January 6, 2009, 01:32 PM   #48
ZeSpectre
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Quote:
Don't you also agree that 4 guns pointed at your head is not likely to be one of those times that "always fight" is going to end well?
I agree that the odds in such a situation would be pretty grim.

Quote:
Being compliant is USUALLY best if someone has a gun to your head, unless there are signals telling you it's going to end badly regardless of your response
Well for me if someone has a gun, literally, to my head then I figure it's a good time to assume things are going to end badly and I might as well "go for it" but I do understand your point that "the proof of the pudding is in the eating" and since the guy went home in the end it was obviously the correct course of action for the situation.
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Old January 6, 2009, 02:21 PM   #49
George PT-111
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ok here is my take on it, not that anyone cares.

If you are at the gun point and they tell you that they will kill you (not that they will kill you if you don't give them something) I mean they just want to kill you and they don't want anything from you, YES it's time to act even if chances are slick.

BUT if they tell you give me the wallet and you are still at gun point In my opinion if they wanted you dead you would have been dead and they would take your $, so maybe if you give them $ or whatever they want, they most likely not to kill you.

This is my personal opinion, and every situation is different. It just feels right to give them $, I mean lets face it they could have killed you from a distance the reason the didn't (in some cases) is 'cause they just want the $
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Old January 6, 2009, 02:24 PM   #50
Brian Pfleuger
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ok here is my take on it, not that anyone cares.
I care George. I also agree.
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