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Old January 5, 2009, 05:29 PM   #1
George PT-111
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MUGGING and CC

I am not sure where to post this thread, i think thsis the right spot for it.

Anyway, in Houston are there are lots of roberies and muggins goin on. I have talked to at least 4 people who were recently mugged near their appartments by one or multiple individuals. And I asked them " if you had a gun in you would it help you? would you had time to draw it?" and everyone said the same thin "NO" they said that those muggings happend so fast they wouldn't have time to draw the gun and if they did had a gun on them they prob. would loose it too.

I am not asking for advice here, I just wanted to post this for discusion.
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Old January 5, 2009, 05:38 PM   #2
Brian Pfleuger
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Without knowing the situation and level of situational awareness of those individuals it is impossible to speculate on what could have helped any of them. However, unless they were physically attacked or had reason to believe that compliance was a dangerous course of action, then having a gun shouldn't affect the outcome.

If you have a gun and somebody says "Give me your money.", give them your money. Guns are a last resort. I would not use my gun to prevent an unarmed robbery or non-violent mugging.

Life > Property

No one dead > BG dead

Not being sued > money in my wallet

loss of money > risks of a gun fight

Act in a manner to minimize your risk of loss.
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Old January 5, 2009, 05:41 PM   #3
George PT-111
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I am sorry I forgot one fact, all those muggins that I asked about were armed with one or more handguns.
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Old January 5, 2009, 05:43 PM   #4
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Where these armed muggings? If you're surprised by someone who suddenly puts a gun in your face and asks for money, then it's too late for you to draw your weapon. Have to ask how aware of your surroundings you were that you were surprised by someone like that.

But if they're unarmed? I mean, they're basically asking you to reach into a pocket, fanny pack, purse, jacket, etc., and extract something. They're hoping for money, but it could be your gun. Whether you're willing to kill over your wallet is you're call. I'm not.

But I think the automatic assumption that their gun would be taken away is just the result of exposure to so much anti propaganda. If you're carrying concealed, and they ask for your wallet, and you give them your wallet, they're not going to know that you even have a gun on you.
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Old January 5, 2009, 05:45 PM   #5
George PT-111
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No Croz, two out for of my friends were hand searched, so YES they would have founds the pistol on them.
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Old January 5, 2009, 05:52 PM   #6
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An armed mugging with a physical search is a nasty situation. If they get the jump on you you're fixing to have a bad day if you're armed. It actually is one situation where you may be better off unarmed, so long as the BG is content to leave with your valuables, which I'm guessing is what these particular guys did. Hopefully, a good level of situational awareness and avoidance of danger prone areas would go a long way in preventing the incident in the first place.
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Old January 5, 2009, 05:54 PM   #7
George PT-111
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Yes very bad situation, they left them the wallet and bellonings exept for the cash and credit cards.
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Old January 5, 2009, 07:19 PM   #8
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Quote:
No Croz, two out for of my friends were hand searched, so YES they would have founds the pistol on them.
Then I stand corrected. Sorry. I hear so many people make the natural assumption that they would get the gun taken away, that I thought that was the case there. Like another person said, armed assailants with hand searches are nasty situations. Sorry to hear about that situation, and your friends.
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Old January 5, 2009, 08:02 PM   #9
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If you're surprised by someone who suddenly puts a gun in your face and asks for money, then it's too late for you to draw your weapon.
I'll repeat what several have said - if you're aware of your surroundings and the people close to you - it'll never come to this.
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Old January 5, 2009, 08:03 PM   #10
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Im not exactly sure how most muggings take place but if someone pulls a weapon on me and asks for my belongings im going to take a step back "reach for my wallet" and then let him have it when my hand returns with a gun in it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by peetzakilla
It actually is one situation where you may be better off unarmed, so long as the BG is content to leave with your valuables,
There is never a situation in which being unarmed is better. Ive heard of enough cases in which the BG shot the person after mugging them that I would much rather make an attempt at defending myself then leave myself at the mercy of the BG
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Old January 5, 2009, 08:12 PM   #11
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it kind of sounds like you are looking for a reason to not go native with a hoodie and a hammerless and your hands in the front pocket.

probably, there are lots of reasons not to do that, especially since nobody is getting hurt as it is. because other wise you are saying...lots of muggings, you shouldnt carry a gun cause it wont do you any good.
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Old January 5, 2009, 08:16 PM   #12
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Quote:
There is never a situation in which being unarmed is better.
The situation described is probably one in which the victims were better off unarmed. They did not have the situational awareness (apparently) to avoid the situation. Attempting to draw a CCW on apparently multiple BGs that already had them covered with their own weapons would be near suicide. Sometimes, when you're that far behind the reactionary curve the safest thing to do is stay there, until it's safe to make a move. If the BG are physically searching you and have you covered with their own weapons, how exactly are you going to draw without being shot? Hoping that they do not intend to kill you is NOT NOT a great option, but it's better than MAKING THEM kill you.

The best thing is to stay aware and stay ahead of the curve. Barring those two, you're left with a series of bad options and the hope that you can recover the advantage.

After all, what we're after is going home safe and sound, not bringin' down the hammer on the BG's that have the NERVE to mug ME.
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Old January 5, 2009, 08:26 PM   #13
George PT-111
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[qoute] I'll repeat what several have said - if you're aware of your surroundings and the people close to you - it'll never come to this. [qoute/]


That is such a bull****, there are so MANY MANY ways to come up to someone without you even suspecting anything at all, even if you are suspecting something you won't draw unless you feel danger for your life and usually you will feel danger is when some one is already pulled a gun on you.

I can easily pass you by looking at the stars, then pull my gun out and come behind you and place my gun right to your head, and YOU will not get a chance to draw!!!
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Old January 5, 2009, 08:30 PM   #14
troy_mclure
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Quote:
Quote:
There is never a situation in which being unarmed is better.

The situation described is probably one in which the victims were better off unarmed. They did not have the situational awareness (apparently) to avoid the situation. Attempting to draw a CCW on apparently multiple BGs that already had them covered with their own weapons would be near suicide. Sometimes, when you're that far behind the reactionary curve the safest thing to do is stay there, until it's safe to make a move. If the BG are physically searching you and have you covered with their own weapons, how exactly are you going to draw without being shot? Hoping that they do not intend to kill you is NOT NOT a great option, but it's better than MAKING THEM kill you.

The best thing is to stay aware and stay ahead of the curve. Barring those two, you're left with a series of bad options and the hope that you can recover the advantage.

After all, what we're after is going home safe and sound, not bringin' down the hammer on the BG's that have the NERVE to mug ME.

if they were armed they would likely have had better situational awareness.

i agree with onthejohn55 there is never a situation in which being unarmed is better.
its not a question of weather i am willing to kill for my wallet, but whether they are willing to threaten my life for my wallet.
any threat to my life/safety WILL be destroyed.
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Old January 5, 2009, 08:37 PM   #15
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its not a question of weather i am willing to kill for my wallet, but whether they are willing to threaten my life for my wallet.
It's neither. In the situation described, as it happened, not as we would like it to happen, they were better off unarmed. It would not have been a question of "killing for my wallet," it would be a question of DYING for your wallet.

Let's here from some people with Force-on-Force training to tell us about the futility of drawing on someone who already has you covered.

There's basically three possibilities:

1) You attempt to draw and get in a close contact fire fight. This will almost certainly result in all involved being shot.

2) They find your gun and steal it.

3) They find your gun and freak out that you're armed and shoot you.
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Old January 5, 2009, 08:41 PM   #16
George PT-111
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PEETZILLA you are right on the money. I would like to hear some pros lerics.
#2 is not such a big problem though, you report it stollen and you good to go.
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Old January 5, 2009, 08:42 PM   #17
troy_mclure
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i like to believe my situational awareness, and paranoia would have allowed me to notice them before they got too close.
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Old January 5, 2009, 08:46 PM   #18
onthejon55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peetzakilla
There's basically three possibilities:

1) You attempt to draw and get in a close contact fire fight. This will almost certainly result in all involved being shot.

2) They find your gun and steal it.

3) They find your gun and freak out that you're armed and shoot you.
Today 07:30 PM
so basically if i do nothing theres a 50% chance im dead... ill take my chances and defend myself

Last edited by onthejon55; January 5, 2009 at 08:47 PM. Reason: grammar
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Old January 5, 2009, 08:46 PM   #19
Brian Pfleuger
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i like to believe my situational awareness, and paranoia would have allowed me to notice them before they got too close.
I hope so, and I believe you. I hope I would notice too. Looking down the barrel of a gun is a BAD time to become aware of its owner.
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Old January 5, 2009, 08:54 PM   #20
George PT-111
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I hope so too, but nothing is perfect. if you want something you can make it happend. Trust me, if I wanted to pull my gun on anyone without him drawing first, I could do it, so can they.

I am even sure sure things like that happend from behind, one of my friends was mugged by 4 guys w/ 4 guns pointed at his head while he was told to look down and he was hand searched.

Thanks good thats all they did, 'cuase my buddy had a wife and 2 kids.
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Old January 5, 2009, 08:56 PM   #21
BuckHammer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peetzakilla
If you have a gun and somebody says "Give me your money.", give them your money. Guns are a last resort. I would not use my gun to prevent an unarmed robbery or non-violent mugging.
How exactly do you mug someone nonviolently?!? I'm pretty sure if someone tries to "nonviolently" mug me, I'm just gonna leave. WHAT? Why give them your money, it's "nonviolent". I'm pretty sure giving up money in that situation is charity. I mean, "unarmed mugging", seriously. Am I missing something? If someone asks for my money nonviolently, it's usually a guy collecting for the salvation army, not a mugger. Seriously, if someone tries to mug me nonviolently without a weapon, I'm just gonna assume their crazy and give them a dollar to help them out or whatever. Plus, you don't have to shoot someone who is nonviolently trying to mug you, it's NONVIOLENT. I must be missing something. Seriously, I don't get it.
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Old January 5, 2009, 08:58 PM   #22
Brian Pfleuger
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so basically if i do nothing theres a 50% chance im dead... ill take my chances and defend myself
We're not talking about "you". The right thing to do was clearly nothing. They did nothing and went home.

If "you" find yourself in this EXACT situation, discounting the "I would have seen them..." business, attempting to draw will make you DEAD. If your lucky, you'll survive with just a few bullet holes. Drawing your weapon on a BG that already has his drawn on you is the absolute WORST CASE, LAST THING to do, sometimes you might not have a choice. If you do have a choice, you do not draw. You WILL get shot. It's not like the movies. We're not Bruce Willis or Sylvester Stallone. The BG's have not been told what we're going to do and how they should react. They're going to react by SHOOTING YOU.
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Old January 5, 2009, 09:01 PM   #23
Brian Pfleuger
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I'm pretty sure if someone tries to "nonviolently" mug me, I'm just gonna leave.
That would be wise. It happens. If they don't have a weapon, you can run. If they have a knife you can run. You should, in both cases. If they have a gun what are you going to do? Run? No, they could shoot you. Fight? No, they could shoot you. If they have a gun, GIVE THEM YOUR WALLET! What makes any one think they can win a gun fight where the BG already has his gun out and they don't? Think about that for a minute.
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Old January 5, 2009, 09:01 PM   #24
George PT-111
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I have to agree w/ PeteZilla. I am a very cocky dude, I will fight anyone anywhere, but in this situation I woul just wait and see what happens next.
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Old January 5, 2009, 09:20 PM   #25
onthejon55
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If theres a 50% chance im going to get shot anyway im going to defend myself. Its that simple. I would rather die defending myself than get shot in the head by someone because they think im too passive to do anything to defend myself. People who just give up are the reason mugging is so popular. If everyone defended themselves in the manner i described then there would be a huge decrease in mugging. simply giving away your belongings because theres a chance you will get away unharmed is not the right answer and only promotes more crime. And by the way, i dont need you telling me in not an action hero but im willing to pit my skills against any thugs in order to save my own life if i feel its necessary.

Last edited by onthejon55; January 5, 2009 at 09:21 PM. Reason: grammar
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