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Old January 15, 2009, 08:47 AM   #51
TacticalDefense1911
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1. Then you don't know how to do it if it's not fast.

2. IMO, It's not the breath smelling close technique to use. You need arm length distance IMHO. A few shots from close retention low in the abdomen/pelvis may create the distance, it may not. Nothing is guaranteed with any technique.


I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I've done it and seen Roger(Sweatnbullits) put 17 rounds(15 from his G19) between the waistline/pelvic girdle and throat/head on center line from draw to full extension. It's not complicating anything, unless you don't practice it, but then a simple draw from concealment can be complicated if you don't practice it. Just sayin
Is it my favorite tool in the box, no, but there is no arguing that it will create a lot of trauma in a short amount of time.
I just see it as a solution to a problem that does not exist. In all the police video I've seen I've never seen a threat stand face to face with an LEO and try to "juke" or head fake them like a running back when being shot at.
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Old January 15, 2009, 09:41 AM   #52
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The Zipper is simply a concept of getting hits on board as quickly as possible out of the irrefutable law of economy of motion. Then putting fast and accurate hits on board targeting the centerline (CNS) up through the torso, to the thoracic cavity, up through the neck, and into the head.

The concept has been used by many gunfighters, for many decades.

It may not fit into the competition based training of the last 60 years but it has a solid combat proven history.
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Old January 15, 2009, 10:52 PM   #53
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When ever I hear about aiming at the pelvis, I have my doubts about its effectiveness. If the acetabulum or the proximal part of the femur is hit, it will drop the person. What happens is that lower extremity does not work anymore. However, at work, I have seen too many handgun hits in the pelvic wings that just left a nice round hole. I have yet to see a shattered pelvis by handgun. Those do not cause incapacitation. Painful,yes, potentialy deadly, yes.

In any situation at least one if not both of you will be moving. Therefore, I will used COM which will allow for the best chance of hitting my target and will continue to shoot until the threat is over.
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Old January 16, 2009, 07:58 PM   #54
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last time I checked the 75th Counterstrike Rangers didn't count as a military unit.


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The Zipper is simply a concept of getting hits on board as quickly as possible out of the irrefutable law of economy of motion. Then putting fast and accurate hits on board targeting the centerline (CNS) up through the torso, to the thoracic cavity, up through the neck, and into the head.
Forgive me if I come off as facetious but do you ask Mr. Bad guy to stay still and get zippered before, or after you start shooting? While you are busy shooting him in the bladder and intestines, he may be busy shooting you in the face.
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Old January 17, 2009, 05:44 AM   #55
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Forgive me if I come off as facetious but do you ask Mr. Bad guy to stay still and get zippered before, or after you start shooting? While you are busy shooting him in the bladder and intestines, he may be busy shooting you in the face.
Without very rapid emergency surgery for lower body hits, especially the added complication of clothing and dirt from said clothing carried into the innards so to speak, death can be the result of this kind of wound, peritonitis comes to mind.

But not quickly.

When faced with a life threating situation most of the action is in deciding weather to do, or not do anything! Common thought factor appears to be "Is this really happening?"

If you have been targeted for death, a very rare situation, the first clue could be inbound projectiles, striking you, or near you.

The most common interaction with a criminal, or more than one, out of your home, is normally a robbery. To accomplish the transfer of watch/wallet/ and or cash, from you to them as it were, is in threat talking.

This is a logistic consideration really, transferring the above objects is difficult if the individual is bleeding, on the ground and rolling all over the place.

Your window of opportunity is right at the point of "Give me your... because here the mugger is expecting movement, he asked you to! did he not?

As we all know what area to shoot with a 127g 9mm bullet, for instant incapacitation, and knowing the first round is the most important round you have ever fired in your life! Why would you put it around 25" from those small target areas? As apposed to the nose, or close to said nose/eye ball?
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Old January 17, 2009, 09:43 AM   #56
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As we all know what area to shoot with a 127g 9mm bullet, for instant incapacitation, and knowing the first round is the most important round you have ever fired in your life! Why would you put it around 25" from those small target areas? As apposed to the nose, or close to said nose/eye ball?

Borrowing some of Vlad's words, how do you get Mr. Badguy to stand there so you can shoot him in the eyes and nose?
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Old January 17, 2009, 10:05 PM   #57
vox rationis
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Borrowing some of Vlad's words, how do you get Mr. Badguy to stand there so you can shoot him in the eyes and nose?
True, depending on the range and dynamic variables, hitting the face and nose, one may argue, might be harder to achieve than even getting a chance (before getting shot oneself) to get to the vital parts while doing a zipper

That's why, I would think, COM in the high chest, where the heart and great vessels reside, is most commonly taught as the best target to aim for as it is sufficiently large, and has the potential to produce quick stops if hit.

Since I don't believe that rounds hitting the Pelvis would do anything other than make holes without significantly undermining the weight bearing capacity of the Pelvis, unless one was aiming laterally enough to hit an iliac artery, or moved superior enough to eventually get to the abdominal aorta, I don't see how hitting the lower abdomen/hypogastric abdominal quadrant would help one's cause of quick incapacitation of a criminal in any significant way.

Oh, and peritonitis doesn't count as a quick incapacitating medical condition until you go into serious septic shock, and that will take a while

Last edited by vox rationis; January 17, 2009 at 10:14 PM.
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Old January 17, 2009, 10:17 PM   #58
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I'm not in total disagreement with you Vlad. Given the the choice of CNS, COM or the zipper. I'll take them in that order, however we don't always get to choose our fights. I'm not sure how familiar you are with the zipper, but 6, 8, 10, 15 rounds running up the centerline is gonna cause a lot of trauma if it can be executed. We're (Roger and myself) aren't talking about throwing 1-2 shots out and wait to see what happens. We're talking about running to slide lock between the waistline and COM or head, using the initial shots to help create distance. Nothing is guaranteed.



Take Care,
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Old January 17, 2009, 10:42 PM   #59
vox rationis
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Don ,

I understand that people sometimes have to take the shot that is most practicable to take at that given moment, within the context of lots of different extenuating circumstances.

I was just raising the problem that while effort is being made to shoot the pelvis/abdomen/lower body, the criminal might be making effort to hit more vital structures instead, COM or CNS for example.

Therefore I don't know that it makes sense for someone to train to automatically go for a low shot, just because it offers a higher chance for a first hit, instead of spending a few more miliseconds to obtain a slightly slower but more potentially decisive shot since in the midst of the fight or flight sympathetic nervous response the combatants will often not react to hits that are not significantly incapacitating (and sometimes not even then, but that's a different story, right!?).

Therefore you might hit first, low in the Pelvis or Abdomen, but these hits might not temporarily inconvenience the criminal, but instead buy him the crucial miliseconds to get a slower, but more decisive, hit on you, while you are still in the midst of running the zipper northbound.

In the grand scheme of things I'm probably pretty high drag and low speed when it comes to gunfighting, but these were just some thoughts.

Last edited by vox rationis; January 17, 2009 at 10:48 PM.
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Old January 17, 2009, 10:49 PM   #60
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Vlad,
We agree way more than disagree I don't believe in training to automatically default to one particular pet tactic or shot. Situations are all different and a person needs to apply the most correct response to the situation and not try to force the situation to apply to their "pet" response.
IMHO, this is why these discussions are good. They get all involved to think about what their actions might be.
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Old January 17, 2009, 10:53 PM   #61
vox rationis
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We agree way more than disagree I don't believe in training to automatically default to one particular pet tactic or shot. Situations are all different and a person needs to apply the most correct response to the situation and not try to force the situation to apply to their "pet" response.
IMHO, this is why these discussions are good. They get all involved to think about what their actions might be.
Yesm...and you know, after all of the academic discussions are expended, it comes down to one aphorism: "It is better to be lucky then good"
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Old January 17, 2009, 10:55 PM   #62
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"It is better to be lucky then good"

Amen to that
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Old January 18, 2009, 01:02 AM   #63
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For a self defense shooting, when one is given the option of COM or pelvic girdle, why would anyone shoot at the pelvic girdle? If your options are limited by distance, time, etc... then shoot at the best place you can. If COM, and head shots are out of the question, the pelvic girdle is the best out of the remaining options. Here's why COM would be much better than pelvic girdle:

You're goal in a SD/HD situation is to stop the BG. Stop does not mean to limit his ability to walk or to knock him down. Stop means to stop him from being a threat. To stop the BG is to take away his ability to harm you, your loved ones, or anyone else. Shoot a guy in the pelvis, he can still pull a trigger, use a knife, choke you to death, etc.

A hit to the pelvis might not even stop his movement (if for some reason that is your goal). To take someone down to the ground you need to take him off balance. Hitting him right in his center of gravity is the worst way to do this. To take him down you'd need to hit a nerve, his spine, or break the pelvis bone in such a way as to make him unable to walk. Depending on the caliber size of BG, and many other factors, your chances of this are low to none.

When it comes to 2 to COM, 1 to the head style of training I would advise to leave this to people who have the ability to effectively train for it. If you can't spend at least a few hundred rounds at the range every month and/or don't have the ability to practice at moving targets leave the 2+1 training to the pros. The head is the smallest and hardest target to hit. It's constantly moving and in a real world situation almost impossible to hit. Most people make head shots by missing COM.

I'm not saying don't aim for the head. I'm saying that routine 2+1 training isn't a very good idea for the average civillian. Train for head shots, but not automatically following COM shots with them. Instead train for the situation where the BG isn't affected at all by your COM shots and suddenly becomes close enough for an effective head shot. That's a distance where the outline of the head can be easily seen above and on both sides of your sights.

I'll go ahead and assume that the guy the OP is referring to is actually who he claims to be, and was telling the truth. If you're not in a military special forces unit, don't train like you are. You're not going to be facing the same situations they will. What works for them is not necessarily what will work for you. Also, just because the military is doing something doesn't even mean it's what is best for them. The military changes the way they do things more often than I change shoes. Many times they do something for a few months only to go back to the old way.

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there are several very major blood vessels, large nerve clusters, large intestine, bladder.

hit any of these things and the bg is down. a femoral artery will have the bg bled out in 3mins.
put some holes in the intestine/bladder and sepsis will likely kill him even if the bullets dont.
and having a colostomy bag will keep him from too much crime.
There are major organs there, but no vital ones. To effectively stop a BG you need to hit something vital. Yes a direct hit to the femoral artery will lead to death very very quickly, but you have a better chance that the BG will drop dead from a heart attack than actually hitting a particular artery. Even if you do, that 3 minutes gives the BG plenty of time to kill you or your loved ones. Sepsis may kill the BG, but that will happen days or weeks later. Again he has time to do bad things to you and your loved ones.

TacticalDefense1911 (Post #23) is 100% correct.

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The hope is that even a person super high on drugs will go down if that basic needed hip bone is shattered.

And then the bad guy can be disarmed without killing him.
The BG is going to have three options when you draw your gun. He's going to surrender, he's going to fight, or he's going to flee. Very very few of them surrender. Most of them flee. Many of them fight. Take away the option to flee and a very large majority are going to fight back. If I miss COM and I hit the pelvis and the BG goes down, I'm going to give him about .5 seconds to throw his weapon away and keep his hands where I can see them. If he doesn't do this by .6 seconds, he's going to catch some bullets with his brain. One should never attempt to disarm a BG. Distance is your friend. If you get close enough to take his gun away, he's close enough to take yours, and he's close enough to put a bullet in your head.

Once again, the only way to eliminate the threat of the BG is to stop him. Being stopped and being dead have the exact same symptoms. That is why I practice to shoot to kill. If I kill the BG, I will effectively stop him. That's the whole point behind using lethal force. There are only two ways a human being dies from a gunshot:

1. They bleed to death. This happens when blood vessels and or vital organs such as the heart are ruptured. This type of death can take anywhere from just a few seconds to a few hours. A direct hit to the heart will cause death in about 3.5 seconds or less. While it is still possible for the BG to enflict lethal force during this time, the trauma caused by the wound usually keeps him from doing so.

2. Direct hit to the central nervous system (CNS). This is a hit to the brain, the brain stem, or the upper portion of the spinal cord. Preferably a direct hit to the medulla oblongata (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medulla_oblongata). This is the only way to immediately kill the BG. While FTF with the BG this area is located at the back of the skull right behind that nice little spot right between his eyes.

None of these vital things are located in the pelvic region. A shot there will not quickly stop a threat. This is why I train for COM, and if needed head shots. COM takes priority above the head because it's bigger and easier to hit, and because bullets have been known to bounce off of skulls.
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Old January 18, 2009, 02:39 AM   #64
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Your window of opportunity is right at the point of "Give me your... because here the mugger is expecting movement, he asked you to! did he not?
My idea behind the shot in the head, the person is very close. The target, head, is the distance away that a person would be asking for your wallet, 5 or 6 feet? At that range the head is a big target!

Punch gun forward, BANG!! This exact situation took place in Orlando, Robbery attempt at a car wash, the criminal was not that close with his sawn off shotgun apparently, and the chest was a better target, several rounds were fired, he ran away at once, fell down and died.

The place to shoot a mugger (that is what the individual appears to be here) is the part of the body that would do the most good, taking in to consideration the distance from muzzle to target. Five feet face, 12 feet center of chest, and keep firing.

Practice this on the range, electronic timer, gives you an idea of the time and motion parameters to some great extent. It all boils down to are you going for your pistol or not?
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Old January 19, 2009, 06:06 PM   #65
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last time I checked the 75th Counterstrike Rangers didn't count as a military unit.
Only if he has his "operator" tab, a current subscription to Gungho and Soldier of Fortune, and a 9th degree blackbelt in mall ninja training.
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Old January 20, 2009, 07:36 AM   #66
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Talking of Soldier of Fortune

I met Peter Kokalis (Sic) a long time writer for S of F on Sat: night at the Glock reception here in Orlando (Shot Show) as one of three partners in a small gun company, in Ontario Canada, we imported our first ten Glock 17s in 1984, and one we sold to a Canadian gun Collector was used by Peter K, in doing the Glock 17 review in that magazine, a really good review.

Should still be in the archives.

He is quite old and bent, is Peter, a bit older than even I! The reception was first rate, the Boston Police Pipes and Drum Band played for 20 minutes or so, incredible! Off subject, worth a mention.
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Old January 20, 2009, 11:51 AM   #67
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Okay, here's the can opener for a nasty can of worms: Center of mass is still taught by the military, especially in initial traing. However, experience in Iraq has shown a slight problem... namely failure to drop the S.O.B. Currently, the teaching is slightly above center mass for the initial hit. The target being the heart, lungs, and all the other fun stuff in the upper thoratic cavity... aorta, vena cava, et cetera. After a hammer pair there, IF the target hasn't stopped, THEN comes the "incapacitate / failure to stop" shot.
At close range, this is a head shot to the "T-box." At greater range, the pelvic shot is used. The theory is that he can not move towards you very well (if at all), is in a s**tload of pain, and is bleeding to death- you've already shot him twice in the chest. Keeping him away until he expires is good enough, especially when there is another one, two, or more bad guys out there.
Please note that this is a guideline. If a target is armored, don't waste the ammo on anything near center of mass... unless you've got AP rounds AND are closer than 100 yards to the aforementioned bad guy. If you've got a belt-fed weapon, AKA 'Heaven,' then low center mass is the aiming point, to compensate for muzzle climb, and the "stream" of lead will punch through. With either of those, the body armor may as well be butter.
As for a "Special Forces" guy advising a pelvic shot rather than a center of mass (or modified center of mass) shot, I can only see one reason why. He might be talking about using a full auto carbine, namely the M4. Then aiming at the lower left hip (as you see the bad guy; when he's facing you it'll be his right hip) would compensate for the right and up 'full-auto' climb.
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Last edited by warrior poet; January 20, 2009 at 11:52 AM. Reason: Not too clear in last paragraph... doh!
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Old January 21, 2009, 09:41 PM   #68
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Mozambique. Not pelvic girdle. Two to the chest and one to the noggin works every time. Definitely gives the bad guy something to think about when he gets over to the other side...
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Old January 22, 2009, 11:06 PM   #69
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Training...but......

I attended SD training while in the Army and also two civilian classes in the past couple of years. Even after the training, if it is ever necessary that I draw my weapon, I will most like start firing as the weapon clears the holster and continue to fire until the BG goes down. I would also guess that my first shot fired would hit the BG in the groin area, the next in the navel area and the next in the chest area. No one ever knows what their actions/reactions would be until they are placed in an actual attack/mugging or what ever. Hopefully we are never to be in a situation where we have to take another persons life.
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Old January 24, 2009, 06:08 AM   #70
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Mozambique.

Just for clarification, and we have all done the two to the body, and one to the head drills, and called it the Mozambique.

The drill comes from an actual shooting that did happen in Africa, but the two to the body did hit, good ones, the third, and final fight stopper, aimed for the head, landed in the throat!

That was what I was told by a South African any how.
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Old January 25, 2009, 11:06 PM   #71
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The students I teach firearms to get the hang of the Mozambique real quick and accurately too. I teach them to use the Mozambique at distances under 15 yards and to get the head shot right. That means that they have to concentrate on their trigger control/pull and their front sights. I figure that the 2 to the chest will probably take care of the overwhelming bad guy problems and that the 1 to the head is extra insurance or just in case. Around where I live we've had more than a good number of head shots that dropped a bad guy.

We had one where an armed robber walks into a store, announces, "We're professionals!!" and fires one round into the ceiling. Responding officers met one bad guy at the front door and one bad guy coming out the back. The bad guy at the back pulled his revolver and the cop strafed him from the groin right up to the point of his head. The officer's 6th shot struck the bad guy slightly dead center and above his eyes. Bad guy instantly falls to the ground, flops about a bit and stops moving. The next day there is a new poster in the police squad room. It shows the dead robber on the ground with a conversation balloon showing him saying, "We're professionals."

Got to love those head shots.
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Old January 26, 2009, 11:19 AM   #72
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Never heard of this alternate to COM... great read thanks for the info.

As I will remain with COM, it is still not a bad alternate.

Thanks!
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Old February 5, 2009, 05:55 AM   #73
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The path of a bullet

This has been a very nice exchange of ideas, and a lot of experienced Instructors use historical data to validate their training methods, a good valid path.

Physics dictate results really. The pistol, weight and ergonomics, plus the holster, in terms of removing this object (a gun) from it's resting place, concealed on your body, It is hard to time this exercise in a gun fight! Other factors are on your mind!
But we can test this action on a range,an electronic timer works.

Knowing that when a bullet leaves the muzzle, it's trajectory will be in an ever widening path, till it hits something, or some body.

The fastest way to achieve hits is to go as close to a straight line as possible, from holster to trigger press, so up lift pistol till it clears forward lip of holster (good idea to have a lowered lip, a cut away) at this time the pistol is pointed at it's destination, and punched straight at the target, if going to a two handed hold, that second hand is contacted, during that line following, gripped tightly, and helps in the forward trajectory of the pistol, the shot breaks at the end of that stroke, or close to that point.

The distance from muzzle to target dictates that target. Rough numbers follow, 6ft, nose, 15ft upper central chest.

And remember the rule, the quickest time /distance, from A to B, is a straight line. Less than 6ft, your hands move quicker going forward, than down to your belt and back. So grabbing a gun and going hands on might be the way to go, burying a thumb into an eye socket with one hand, whilst your other hand keeps the muzzle of your assailants weapon away from your body comes to mind, your choice.
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