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Old January 3, 2009, 06:37 PM   #1
grdpounder
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COM?

I was at the local range today and had a dicussion with the RSO who also happens to be a Special Forces Soldier, he was telling me that Center of Mass is out and now the target is the pelvic girdle. Has anybody heard of this?
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Old January 3, 2009, 06:49 PM   #2
Chindo18Z
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I'm just gonna guess that he was confusing a valid technique for dealing with body armor clad opponents with wholesale implementation of new training doctrine. It's just a technique...not a lifestyle.

Who did he say it was "out" with? Center mass is still "in".

We don't teach pelvic girdle aimpoint as anything but an option.
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Old January 3, 2009, 06:59 PM   #3
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I would recommend you ignore that man's advice and continue to shoot center mass. I think it's safe to say the best way to stop a threat is a dose to the chest-- I don't think BG's even wear girdles
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Old January 3, 2009, 09:32 PM   #4
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Special Forces Soldier
To me, that says it all...he's trained to shoot when he has a full auto weapon with a 30 round mag and several spares mags about his body, AND he has help around him. Personal defense is usually with a very limited supply of ammo and you're usually the only one shooting.

Two VERY different situations requiring VERY different tactics.

My CWP class qualified COM.
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Old January 3, 2009, 09:56 PM   #5
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i actualy have heard of a version of this. i am not saying i am in agrement with it. but the philosophy behind the self defense aplication of this is:

you look just over the sights

as you draw and come up on target you fire two rounds into the pelvic area. the theory i was told that this is the fastest way to get acurate rounds on target in a damaging area. the weight of the body rest on this point. if your lucky enough to damage the bone structure the body will begin to fall and bad guys don't shoot well when falling.

after two very quick rounds to the pelvic area (basicaly the gun just continues up without stopping) you then deliver several to the chest and continue up to the head. if you feel the threat is still there.

it is a very fast fire method. i have shot this at the range and surprisingly i shot very acurate out to some long ranges.
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Old January 3, 2009, 10:06 PM   #6
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I have been told that it is sometimes the quickest way to actually halt an advancing opponent who is powered on by certain drugs...
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Old January 3, 2009, 10:12 PM   #7
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Let me give you the situation, he was working with someone doing a modifed "El Presidente" drill, I happened to like his targets and asked about them.

I showed him my version of the same drill with a target that was feature in a Rob Pincus (sp) video with multiple blocks outside the sillioutte and three target areas in the body and he focused on the pelvic girdle right away. I spent 25 years training to shoot COM and I understand when and where shooting lower could be to your advantage, I just wanted to see if things had changed.
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Old January 3, 2009, 10:14 PM   #8
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a small bullet precisely striking and then having enough OOMPH to crush/shatter a pelvic bone is not going to be easy to accomplish when you're sweating, have tunnel vision, shaky hands from adrenaline flush, etc...

The center of mass is the way to go. If that fails, I'd go for a headshot over pelvic.

Just my two cents.
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Old January 3, 2009, 10:17 PM   #9
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I can't but help wonder about which unit the former "special forces soldier" was with...last time I checked the 75th Counterstrike Rangers didn't count as a military unit.

In all seriousness though, the pelvic girdle is a legit target, but for civilian self defense is sort of a target of last resort. You shoot it if you can't get rounds in to part of the body where a stop is more likely.
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Old January 3, 2009, 11:23 PM   #10
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the pelvic girdle is a great target.

there are several very major blood vessels, large nerve clusters, large intestine, bladder.

hit any of these things and the bg is down. a femoral artery will have the bg bled out in 3mins.
put some holes in the intestine/bladder and sepsis will likely kill him even if the bullets dont.
and having a colostomy bag will keep him from too much crime.

the lapd(?) used the pelvic shot to put down the PCP guys that took bullets to the heart and kept coming
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Old January 4, 2009, 01:56 PM   #11
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IMO you will never be wrong with center mass.
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Old January 4, 2009, 02:07 PM   #12
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I will remain a 2 COM shooter... If the threat is still making forward progress, a head shot is shortly enroute...
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Old January 4, 2009, 02:14 PM   #13
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Aiming for and hitting the pelvic girdle can quickly incapacitate an opponent. Snipers and SOF are trained in several different aiming methods, typically based on their methods of operation, the opponents expected, and the weapons used. Infantry, LEO, and SD shooters will typically get good results with COM aiming, it is a large target with plenty of latitude for inaccuracy. It has a good likelihood of incapacitating the target.
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Old January 4, 2009, 08:25 PM   #14
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IMHO, other than a head shot, the quickest way to drop an opponent in his tracks is with a broken pelvis. A mouse gun won't do the trick for this scenario.

In my 30 plus years of packing I've been trained to shoot for center mass, but I wouldn't hesitate with a pelvic shot.
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Old January 4, 2009, 09:05 PM   #15
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Quote:
Aiming for and hitting the pelvic girdle can quickly incapacitate an opponent.
Depends on what you mean by "incapacitate". Based on my personal experience with a pelvis broken in three places, there was no loss of consciousness and I was able to move myself down from a height. If these pelvic injuries had been the result of a shooting, I would still have been in the fight and returning fire - not exactly too "incapacitating" if you're expecting those pelvic shots to end the encounter.
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Old January 4, 2009, 10:08 PM   #16
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As an 0311(any 03xx for that matter) in the Marines, we are taught two to the chest. As a shooting coach in the marines, I teach two to the chest. I can assure you this is practiced in combat too. He's wrong in saying its out, but the pelvic region is a very good target, especially when the target fails to stop..but so is the head. Im sure our failure to stop drills are no different then everyone elses, 2 to the chest and 1 to the head/pelvic region.

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Old January 4, 2009, 11:56 PM   #17
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Brent, I have a legit question for you.
Quote:
I will remain a 2 COM shooter... If the threat is still making forward progress, a head shot is shortly enroute...
Why don't you just start with the head shot? Is the head shot easier to hit after the target is momentarily stunned by two to the chest? I am not tactically trained, so someone please fill me in.
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Old January 5, 2009, 12:26 AM   #18
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Headshot on a moving target is hard and not worth risking the time/ammo when typically a good hammered pair or controlled pair will do the job. If a man isnt at least stunned by it, then I think you have bigger problems to worry about. But yes, usually they will be stunned for a moment. Depending on who you ask, or even the situation a failure to stop is performed in whole (2COM 1 Head/pelvis) after the first two didnt work, however others will just go straight for the head. Situation dictates my friend.
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Old January 5, 2009, 01:05 AM   #19
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That's what common sense lead me to believe, but I was just making sure.
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Old January 5, 2009, 01:14 AM   #20
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...who also happens to be a Special Forces Soldier...
Hmmm... How long did you talk to him before he volunteered that information?

Shooting at the pelvic girdle is a tool in the arsenal. I'm not aware of any reputable trainer teaching that the pelvic girdle shot should be taken in preference to a COM shot, just that it's an option that one should be aware of.

As pointed out, removing the mobility of an opponent armed with a firearm will not stop him from firing back, but it could be a useful option when engaging a determined attacker with a contact weapon (e.g. knife/club/etc.)
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Old January 5, 2009, 02:28 AM   #21
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Tell your RSO to go back to reading Soldier of Fortune.

Yes, a pelvic hit can be an option, but as the guy is falling down he is still pulling the trigger.

A COM may not stop him from pulling the trigger either, but I will prefer to take this shot over the pelvic shot.

Usually the pelvic shot is taught as an alternative to the head shot in the "two to the body, one to the head". Instead it would be "two to the body, one to the groin".
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Old January 5, 2009, 07:44 AM   #22
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Okay, a couple of problems here. As far as shooting at the pelvic girdle, while it may drop the threat to the ground, it does nothing to eliminate the threats ability to continue to shoot at you which should be your #1 goal. Knocking out the hydraulics or central nervous system is the only way to make sure that you eliminate a threat.

As far as the "technique" of two shots to the pelvis and then continue to fire as you draw the gun upward...this is an improper technique of drawing from a holster. A handgun should be drawn straight up from the holster, rotated 90 degrees and pushed forward into the firing position. The problem with drawing and sweeping the gun up is that if you always do that you may find yourself in a situation where the threat can block your arms as they raise up from a low position. By keeping your weapon close to your body, rotating and pushing out you can make viable hits on your threat with the gun close to your body until it is pushed all the way out; you are always in a good firing position to make good hits. Just my 2 cents.
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Old January 5, 2009, 08:17 AM   #23
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Buckhammer, In a nutshell... TIME is the only reason I choose COM first with a follow up head shot. I can, in less time, acquire COM in my sights. My first 2 shots are to be rapid fired... I won't even know if the first shot was enough. But following the second shot I expect the threat to have deviated from his initial itinerary at least a little bit. If still making forward progress I have my gun raised already and have assessed the situation while looking down the barrel which is still up and ready and easily pointed for a head shot... *hopefully*...
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Old January 5, 2009, 08:57 AM   #24
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Reality

Quote:
Okay, a couple of problems here. As far as shooting at the pelvic girdle, while it may drop the threat to the ground, it does nothing to eliminate the threats ability to continue to shoot at you which should be your #1 goal. Knocking out the hydraulics or central nervous system is the only way to make sure that you eliminate a threat.

As far as the "technique" of two shots to the pelvis and then continue to fire as you draw the gun upward...this is an improper technique of drawing from a holster. A handgun should be drawn straight up from the holster, rotated 90 degrees and pushed forward into the firing position. The problem with drawing and sweeping the gun up is that if you always do that you may find yourself in a situation where the threat can block your arms as they raise up from a low position. By keeping your weapon close to your body, rotating and pushing out you can make viable hits on your threat with the gun close to your body until it is pushed all the way out; you are always in a good firing position to make good hits. Just my 2 cents.
My thoughts exactly!

I have taught that Punch Draw since 1980.

In a training class I attended (10 years ago?) the guest speaker was Dr. Martin Fackler, the class attendees were all firearms instructors.

The question was asked "What is your opinion of pelvic girdle shots, Dr." the question was asked by a instructor who advocated this aiming point, it was on the Departments target.

Dr. Fackler said "The pelvic girdle is the largest bone mass in the body, pistol rounds would just make holes in it" he went on to say the top few inches of the spine, or the brain stem were the only guaranteed instant stop portions of the body.
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Old January 5, 2009, 10:31 AM   #25
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Shooting at the pelvic girdle is a tool in the arsenal. I'm not aware of any reputable trainer teaching that the pelvic girdle shot should be taken in preference to a COM shot, just that it's an option that one should be aware of.
The late Jim Cirillo wrote of this as a valid option/alternative to starting with the COM based on his and his unit's experiences with it. It was particularly well suited he stated for an LEO holding someone at gun point since you are able to see the suspects hands when focused on the pelvic region and cannot readily do so when focusing on COM. As we know, hands kill.

In his book he did not say write off the COM but that he saw the benefit of the pelvic shot first.

Has it replaced COM across the board, no. At least not for civilians. Guys who present themselves as Special Forces may say different and are in an entirely different environment if they are. If your two shots to the COM fail though you are going to need to switch to a higher or lower target. The pelvis may not be as reliable an area to rapidly stop someone compared to the head but it sure is an easier target to hit.
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