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Old January 2, 2009, 10:09 PM   #176
BuckHammer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Armstrong
Who is better equipped, the guy with a Glock 17 and one 17-round magazine or the guy with a 1911 and two 7-round magazines? Or is it the guy with the J-frame and 2 speedloaders?
The question of this whole thread was "How Many Spare Mags?" I don't see how your question is related in the slightest. Really think about it.

1. Guy with 17 round G17 would be better prepared with one or two spares.
2. Guy with 1911 and two mags is better off than the guy who has only one.
3. Guy with J-frame and speedloaders is better off than the guy without speedloaders.

The question in the thread wasn't about guns, it was about magazines. You can't ask, "Is the guy with one 10,000 round magazine better off than the guy with a J-frame and a couple speedloaders?" Well, you can, but it's ultimately irrelevant to the thread. Yes, more mags/speedloaders will make you more prepared than carrying the same gun without more mags/speedloaders. If I'm missing the point you are trying to prove with your question, please elaborate.

Bottom line is:
Quote:
Originally Posted by BuckHammer
Basically, if carrying extra magazines is easy for you, and/or you want to do it, by all means do it. Even though your chances of survival in general have BARELY improved, they have improved nonetheless. If carrying magazines is trouble for you, or you just don't want to, that's FINE, your survivability increase of carrying an extra mag would have been negligible anyway.
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Old January 2, 2009, 10:38 PM   #177
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I have no doubt, David, that you could for days on end, sit there and casually dismiss any opinion different from yours as irrelevant (you already have). Just as you're about to dismiss this comment with yet another rebuttle.

All in the name of being right that one is not better armed when carrying a reload because the odds of needing it are insufficient.

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Old January 3, 2009, 12:15 AM   #178
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Quote:
it is actually sufficient for virtually any realistic SD DGU incident
except the ones it's not.
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So, from your perspective, the mythical person who DOES need a reload, actually might NOT really need a reload because they may not have needed the gun in the first place if they'd been more aware or had pepper spray or a stun gun?
no from my perspective "required" a reload means exactly that.the person needed a reload, and yes my hindsight is 20/20 also.
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Again, the question does not include any "as long" consideration.
that's the problem with your side of the argument. life does not follow your rules.
hey if you don't want to carry a reload fine.just quit trying to tell everybody your just as well armed without a reload.
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Old January 3, 2009, 05:12 AM   #179
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11 in the G26, 15 more on the hip

see above
(and a backup knife on the weak hand side in case you get locked by a bigger guy on your weapon...)
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Old January 3, 2009, 06:34 AM   #180
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i would rather carry an 8 round gun with a spare mag than a 17 round mag with no extra mag.

what if your primary mag fails?
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Old January 3, 2009, 10:08 AM   #181
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Always 2

I carry two spare mags loaded with Golden Sabers. My main carry gun is a 1911 and sometimes I carry FMJs in the spare magazines. The PM9 is always carried with HP bullets.
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Old January 3, 2009, 10:20 AM   #182
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i would rather carry an 8 round gun with a spare mag than a 17 round mag with no extra mag.

what if your primary mag fails?
That's an argument that neither peetza or armstrong have addressed fully and sufficiently.
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Old January 3, 2009, 10:30 AM   #183
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just quit trying to tell everybody your just as well armed without a reload.
Where did I say that? I said the odds are so ridiculously remote that you will never need it in a hundred lifetimes. That is what the data indicates. Does it help to carry 500 rounds if you need 2? Does it help to carry 20 if you need 2? It is logical to load a gun to capacity. That's why it has that capacity. If a reload was "required" we're back to the question of "What about the guy whose gun holds 18 rounds?" Does HE need a reload? If I carry a revolver do I need 2 reloads? If you think 12 is enough, can't I just carry a gun that holds 12 without a reload? See, there's no logic in the "reloads are necessary, period." but you obviously think it's VERY important or you wouldn't have asked me how I'd feel if I got someone killed.

By your thinking, I have to ask someone "How many rounds does your gun hold?" Them: "10." Me: "Oh, boy that's right on the edge. Hm, you better carry a reload..." but if them says "18" Well, see it's been determined that your only safe if you carry 20 rounds (For example). You better bring an extra mag with 2 rounds in it. If their CRAZY enough to pack a revolver! "Well son... you'd better have 3 maybe 4 speed loaders or you're under gunned."

See? There's no logic in the argument. My argument makes so much more sense:

Them: "Do you think I need a reload?"
me: "Well, odds are you'll never need your gun at all, but I do recommend that you carry one if your comfortable doing so. As for reloads, it's a near 0, once in 3 lifetimes event but, if it makes you more comfortable, go ahead and carry a reload."
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Old January 3, 2009, 01:22 PM   #184
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The question of this whole thread was "How Many Spare Mags?" I don't see how your question is related in the slightest. Really think about it.
It is related because some are using arguments for "carry spare magazine" that are actually "carry plenty of ammo", and the two are very different concepts.
Quote:
Well, you can, but it's ultimately irrelevant to the thread.
We'll disagree. The original post even asks "how many" to carry. Thus the question of ammo versus reloads is pertinent, IMO.
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Bottom line is:....
Agreed. That is what I've been saying for quite a while now.
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Old January 3, 2009, 01:28 PM   #185
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I have no doubt, David, that you could for days on end, sit there and casually dismiss any opinion different from yours as irrevalent (you already have). Just as you're about to dismiss this comment with yet another rebuttle.
I fail to see how pointing out flaws in an argument constitutes dismissal of a view. And I rarely declare an opinion is irrelevant simply because it differs from mine. I point out it is irrelevant because it has nothing to do with the issue. If you disagree, then point out why you think it is relevant, as BuckHammer and I are doing.
Quote:
All in the name of being right that one is not better armed when carrying a reload because the odds of needing it are insufficient.
I don't believe I have ever said that. That is part of the problem, IMO. The "carry spares" group consistently misstates the position of those who don't see a need.
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Old January 3, 2009, 01:36 PM   #186
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That's an argument that neither peetza or armstrong have addressed fully and sufficiently.
Wasn't aware it was much of an issue. IMO, if the odds are so great of your equipment failing you are that high, I think I'd try to find better equipment. I'm not aware of anyone who walks around carrying a spare firing pin just in case the firing pin breaks, or a spare barrel just in case the barrel cracks, etc. Again, it is a matter of cost versus benefit. If you want to carry those things around, go ahead, but the chance of needing them is, well, slim. Personally, I think "equipment failure" is a better argument for a spare weapon than a reload.
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Old January 3, 2009, 01:48 PM   #187
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Quote:
what if your primary mag fails?
Quote:
That's an argument that neither peetza or armstrong have addressed fully and sufficiently.

That's the only legitimate probability of needing a reload, IMO. If you carry one for that reason it's more justifiable than thinking you need more bullets. An equipment malfunction that can be most easily cleared by a mag replacement may be common enough to justify carrying a reload for some people. It's not common enough for me to carry one however, which has been my general point all along.

Like I said, you've got to draw the line somewhere. Nothing will cover every possibility. You've got to decide, for yourself, which events are unlikely enough to ignore and make your decisions accordingly. No matter what, you're ignoring SOME events that COULD happen, only you can decide how far you want to take your preparation. You might be prepared for 99.9% of all incidents, add a mag and be prepared for 99.99%, add a bug and be prepared for 99.999%. At some point, it becomes irrelevant. For me, that point is a 9+1 Glock 33.
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Old January 3, 2009, 01:57 PM   #188
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To me it is simple. The old better to have a gun and not need it, than need it and not have it applies to the carry a spare magazine or not.

I would of course carry a spare magazine, IF, and it is a HUGE IF, here in Wisconsin, I were allowed to conceal carry. Look we are not talking about massive weight or size for the assurance of having a reload.
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Old January 3, 2009, 03:46 PM   #189
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i am just trying to figure out why is everybody saying one way is right or one way is wrong? some want reloads and some don't. its just a matter of comfort. are you comfortable with just one load of ammo. since no one here is taking on any criminal organizations their only use of a firearm will be for imediate protection of their life or a loved one. and almost always it will be withing 5 feet and one load should be just fine. for those of you that are worst case scenario people then maybe someone will try to rob you from 25 feet, not likely but i will throw you that bone. and in that instance ok carry a reload. the point is what ever makes you comfortable. i personaly have done both.
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Old January 3, 2009, 04:00 PM   #190
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Based on my first hand/real life experiences....

I've had to draw and discharge a sidearm more than once while in fear for my life over the last fifteen years out in the world.

That being said,...

(a) if I am carrying my preferred 3" K-frame, it's 2 Safariland Comp I or II speedloaders and a folding tanto-blade knife.

(a1) if it is a higher risk area, then a 2" Model 10 (nubbed hammer)goes in the coat pocket, in addition to option A.

(b) if it is a 1911 Commander, then it's 1 or 2 spare mags -- all are JHP, plus the knife. I find the 1911 is being used very rarely for me. Usually use it when I absolutely need an ultra-slim profile.
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Old January 3, 2009, 06:04 PM   #191
Nnobby45
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Quote:
see above
(and a backup knife on the weak hand side in case you get locked by a bigger guy on your weapon...
Backup knife or a 642 BUG.
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Old January 4, 2009, 07:00 PM   #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Armstrong
Again, it is a matter of cost versus benefit. If you want to carry those things around, go ahead, but the chance of needing them is, well, slim.
You're right. The cost of carrying an extra mag that weighs a whole few ounces is way too costly to ever justify carrying it even. Oh and while yr at it you might as well leave yr gun at home too since yr chances of needing that are, well, slim
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Old January 4, 2009, 07:50 PM   #193
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I always carry at a minimum one extra reload when I'm carrying concelled.
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Old January 5, 2009, 11:34 AM   #194
David Armstrong
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You're right. The cost of carrying an extra mag that weighs a whole few ounces is way too costly to ever justify carrying it even.
Please find a post where I (or anybody in this thread for that matter) has said that. You can't.
Quote:
Oh and while yr at it you might as well leave yr gun at home too since yr chances of needing that are, well, slim
There is a world of difference between "slim" and "virtually never."
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Old January 5, 2009, 11:41 AM   #195
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A police incident - but are you an officer?

2008 Dec 23
Law Officer Magazine Volume 4 Issue 12
The Peter Soulis Incident
Brian McKenna

Officer Peter Soulis was monitoring traffic from a service station parking lot when he spotted a Toyota pull onto the lot with its lights off. The driver drove to a spot directly in Soulis' line of sight, turned the Toyota toward the street and stopped. Ignoring Soulis, he sat eyes straight ahead, focused on the small strip mall across the street. It was almost midnight, and the only business still open in the mall was a sandwich shop.

Soulis decided to investigate. The lot was dimly lit, so he left his headlights off as he pulled forward and stopped behind the Toyota. After angling his car to the left for cover, he logged out on his MDT, grabbed his heavy-duty flashlight, and stepped out into the cool night air. The driver never took his eyes off the strip mall.

Soulis, a safety-conscious, 38-year-old officer with 11 years on the job, worked for a large metropolitan police department in a city with more than its share of violent crime, but the driver didn't look like a trouble-maker and appeared only to be drunk. Still, Soulis knew better than to take anything for granted. Waiting to turn the flashlight on until he got closer, he cautiously moved to a spot about 10 feet behind the Toyota.

Suddenly, the driver lunged to his right and down. Without conscious thought, Soulis drew his gun—a .40 caliber Glock 22—as he moved to his left and shined the light into the car.
"Show me your hands!" he shouted.

Slowly and without looking at Soulis, the driver sat up and raised his hands. He didn't say a word as he kept his eyes riveted straight ahead.

At Soulis' command, the man slowly exited the car with both hands in full view. Soulis was now standing well off to the left of the Toyota with his flashlight aimed into its front seat.
Glancing past the driver, he spotted a beer lying on its side on the floorboard, its contents foaming out onto the carpet. He relaxed a little at the sight of the open beer, but kept his guard up.

Soulis kept his light on the driver as he reholstered and ordered him to come to him.
Obediently, the driver stepped forward and handed Soulis his driver's license. After frisking the man for weapons and finding none, Soulis checked the license and identified the driver as Tim Palmer, a 27-year-old from a small town located many miles from there.

"What are you doing on this lot?" Soulis asked.

Palmer started fidgeting as he replied that he was waiting for some friends and had stopped to use the station's pay phone. Soulis knew that was a lie. Palmer had never gone near the pay phone.

He decided to run him for warrants but suspected he might take off on foot. After ordering Palmer to return to his car, he walked backwards to his cruiser, sat down, and tried to run him on his MDT. But NCIC was down, so there wasn't much he could do. He decided to ask for permission to search the Toyota and take it from there.

In the meantime, he noticed Palmer was nervously glancing around in every direction as he sat waiting in the Toyota. Although not particularly alarmed, Soulis didn't like what he saw.
Becoming increasingly convinced that Palmer intended to run, he lit up the car with his spotlight, headlights and takedown lights.

At first, Palmer turned away from the blazing light, but then he adjusted his inside mirror and fixed his eyes on Soulis. Now even more distrustful of Palmer, Soulis opened his door to start his approach, only to see Palmer's door also swinging open. Moving quickly to make contact before Palmer could run, Soulis stepped out of his car and started forward.

He'd gone barely 10 feet when the alarm bells went off. No fear or panic, but his senses were crying out for greater caution, and he changed his approach. He circled around the back of his cruiser and moved up to the passenger side of the Toyota.

As he stopped alongside the car's right-rear fender and looked inside, every instinct told him Palmer was armed and waiting for him. The man was sitting behind the wheel, hunched forward with both feet firmly planted on the floorboard, his eyes glued to the mirror and his right hand thrust between his legs. His left arm was locked straight down along his left side, pressed down onto the floor next to the open driver's door as he readied himself to spring into action.

Soulis' first thought was to go back to his car and call Palmer out, but he would have to retreat across open ground to do that. Confident his position gave him a solid tactical advantage, he drew his gun as he shouted, "Show me your hands, and get outta the car!"

Soulis had planned to shoot through the back window if Palmer drew a weapon, but for reasons he still doesn't fully understand, he moved forward and to his right, stopping alongside the passenger door, not more than two feet from the window. Instantly, he realized he'd made a grievous blunder. Grinning with blood lust, Palmer lunged across the seat and shoved a Smith & Wesson Sigma up into firing position. Before Soulis could react, the S&W barked flame, driving a 9mm solidly into the center of his chest. The impact knocked Soulis back slightly, but his vest stopped the bullet.

Palmer was out of the Toyota a split-second later, firing the gun at him over the roof.
There was no other cover nearby, so Soulis went down onto one knee behind the front fender to put the Toyota between them. But, at the same instant, two rounds crashed through his left arm, one just above the wrist and the other dead center on the forearm.
Another struck him in the left thigh, although he wouldn't become aware of it until later.

Soulis was shooting back now, pumping rounds through the windshield into his assailant.
Palmer went down immediately, and Soulis used the opportunity to seek better cover. The only decent cover nearby was his patrol car, so he started backpedaling in that direction, Glock at the ready and eyes scanning for Palmer's return as he moved. Then, spotting the cruiser out of the corner of one eye, he turned and started to sprint toward it. He had barely completed the turn when Palmer opened fire again. One round missed, but another tore through his left shoulder and exited his left bicep. He kept moving until he reached the back of the car, where he dropped to one knee and got back into the fight.

Palmer was scurrying back and forth down the driver's side of the Toyota, shrieking with rage and stopping sporadically to fire, but Soulis was more patient. He held his fire, waited for Palmer's head to pop into view, and then took a shot each time it appeared. Although Soulis knew he was getting hits, Palmer seemed impervious to his gunfire.

Soulis was also becoming apprehensive about his wounds. The bullet hole in his left wrist was an ugly, swollen mess that made him wonder if he would have enough dexterity to reload, and the one in his thigh was spewing blood all over the back of his cruiser.
Believing his femoral artery had been hit, he pressed his left hand down over the wound, but that only caused the blood to shoot out another, previously unseen bullet hole. He feared he would bleed out before he could stop Palmer.

Soulis also heard a woman screaming across the street, leading him to believe he may have hit a bystander. He later learned she'd only been screaming in fear, but at the time he could only think of having hurt one of his citizens, and the idea angered him. It also had an unexpected effect—it made him focus on the importance of stopping Palmer before someone else got hurt.

With these thoughts came an unexpected calm, followed by a new resolve. Up to this point, he'd been fighting a commendable, though primarily defensive battle. But now, infused with the realization that Palmer had to be stopped and that only he could do it, he went on the offensive. Now the predator, he resolved that Palmer would never leave the parking lot, even if he had to take more hits to stop him.

Soulis' gun wasn't empty yet, but he knew better than to take the offensive without reloading. As he ejected the partially empty magazine and slapped in a fresh one, he saw something he hadn't expected. Apparently, Palmer had seen the ejected magazine hit the ground and assumed Soulis had either collapsed or run out of ammo. He left the cover of the Toyota, and advanced toward Soulis. Unaware that he was approaching a conscious and fully armed police officer who knew how to capitalize on an opportunity like this, Palmer walked toward the cruiser. Soulis waited patiently, tracking the man's approach by watching his feet under the cruiser.

Palmer hesitated when he reached the cruiser's right-front fender, as if to consider moving over to the driver's side. Soulis knew he'd have trouble tracking Palmer if he came around that way, so he decided to make his move without delay. He lunged out from behind the car, thrust the Glock up into firing position, and opened fire. His first two rounds hit Palmer center chest, rocking him back on his heels. Palmer flinched as two more rounds hit center mass, and then started backpedaling toward the Toyota. He was still holding his gun, but never raised it to fire.

After reaching the car, Palmer dove over the trunk and dropped out of sight. Soulis paused, and then cautiously started forward again. As he moved closer, he spotted Palmer crawling up into the Toyota's front seat and starting the engine.

Soulis stopped and fired two rounds through the back window. The first missed, but the second hit Palmer in the upper back, driving his head forward into the steering wheel.
That seemed to have done the trick, but then Palmer sat up again, dropped the transmission into reverse, and started backing up. With no time to ponder how Palmer had absorbed so many hits, Soulis took aim and emptied the magazine into his assailant.

Palmer rolled over to his right and dropped the gear shift lever into drive, causing the car to lunge forward into a chainlink fence a few feet away, where it came to a stop. After watching Palmer long enough to make sure he didn't get up again, Soulis called for backup and waited for help to arrive.

The Aftermath
Remarkably, Palmer had taken 22 hits from Soulis' .40-caliber Glock, 17 of which had hit center mass. Despite the fact that the weapon had been loaded with Ranger SXTs— considered by many to be one of the best man-stoppers available—Palmer lived for more than four minutes after the last shot was fired. His autopsy revealed nothing more than a small amount of alcohol in his bloodstream. Although Soulis could not have known it, Palmer was wanted for murder in a neighboring state.

Soulis made a full recovery and returned to work less than a month later. He has since retired, and now works for a national railroad as its principle special agent for counterterrorism. He also serves as an adjunct instructor for KFD Training & Consultation and Policecombat.com, which provide cutting edge training for police officers in advanced close quarters combative tactics and officer survival skills.

Discussion & Analysis
Soulis is quick to point out that he made a grave error when he moved up next to Palmer's passenger door, but he courageously overcame that mistake. Motivated by an unshakable commitment to winning and a warrior spirit, he went on the offensive and turned an almost certain defeat into an impressive victory.

This incident included many other important learning points—life-saving lessons purchased with Soulis' blood. We owe it to him to learn as much as we can from them.

An in-depth analysis of this case reveals many other crucial lessons related to officer safety, including how to respond to danger signs, how to handle suspicious persons, the hazards of allowing a motorist to return to his vehicle, what to do when you suspect a subject may be armed, resilience to gunfire and how to win even in the most desperate situation.

------ For the IDPA crowd - note - not a tac reload - give him a procedural!

I admit a puckish sense of humor on posting this - it is a police scenario. But civilian carry is a different beast - so let's see how this interpreted by our two sides of the debate.
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Old January 5, 2009, 11:54 AM   #196
David Armstrong
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Quote:
so let's see how this interpreted by our two sides of the debate.
You've already interpreted it, IMO..."civilian carry is a different beast ." Soulis was responding in an offensive mode, we don't have a SD situation.
BTW, what constitutes "grinning with blood lust"? Gotta love some of the imagery!

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Old January 5, 2009, 12:11 PM   #197
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Poor WildthinkshesprotectedAlaska

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I'm prepped, I wear a tinfoil hat.
We, the dedicated and well paid civilian contractors for big brother, figured out how to read your thoughts through the tinfoil hat back in the 70s. Then in the mid 80s we figured out how to use it as an antenna to put thoughts into your head….
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Old January 5, 2009, 12:21 PM   #198
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Well hears my 2 cents, carry whatever you like. I carried Para Warthog with 1 Extra mag the likely hood of me needing all 21 rounds of 45ACP are slim to none. But I was a boy scout and always prepared.
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Old January 5, 2009, 06:44 PM   #199
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Hm, a different beast? Maybe. Where would a civilian run to if the bad guy he needed to defend himself from took all the rounds of his one magazine and kept coming? Sorry no, to me, it is fool hardy not to have at least one reload for your concealed carry gun.

This guy wasn't even high and it took 22 hits, 17 center mass, to stop him from a .40 caliber handgun. Thank god this officer was ABLE to relaod or it would have more than likely been another LODD.

IF Wisconsin ever gets progressive enough to allow concvealed carry I will ALWAYS carry at least one reload. If for no other reason I can use it to cover my retreat.
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Old January 5, 2009, 06:50 PM   #200
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1 in the gun and 2 spare
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