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Old December 23, 2008, 12:08 PM   #51
Stevie-Ray
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Never. I carry what fits in the magazine. I go to a lot of gun shows and you have to unload and lock your carry firearms. Without anywhere to go, a +1 would be sliding around in my pocket rather than going back in the magazine like it does now. To each his own.

And I find it fantastic for those that say that no matter how many rounds you have, that extra one is the one you're going to need. Right.
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Old December 23, 2008, 12:20 PM   #52
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And I find it fantastic for those that say that no matter how many rounds you have, that extra one is the one you're going to need. Right.
Maybe you're right but it's gonna suck for you if that one time you need just one more round it isn't there. But hey, to each his own, right?
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Old December 23, 2008, 12:27 PM   #53
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And I find it fantastic for those that say that no matter how many rounds you have, that extra one is the one you're going to need. Right.
What I find surreal is that someone doesn't understand this fundamental principle: It is better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.

Do I think that the extra round is the one that I'll need in a fight? Probably not. Between the 7 in the mag and 7 in the spare, I'll most likely have enough to fight or make an covered retreat. But -- there's always that chance, however remote, that the 15th round is the one that is critical. It is a little extra insurance, and one that is cheap and trivially simple to implement. It comes at little cost in weight, bulk or reliability. I mean, why WOULDN'T you carry that extra round, assuming that you are carrying with 1 in the pipe? Why go out of your way to handicap yourself? That's what I find puzzling.
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Old December 23, 2008, 12:40 PM   #54
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I definitely top off. Why not?
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Old December 23, 2008, 12:42 PM   #55
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"Oh, pardon me Mr. Robber/Rapist/Murderer, allow me some extra time after my draw to rack my slide. Thank you sir."

If you are carrying for defensive purposes you must expect the unexpected. That means accepting the possibility that you will have but a split second to draw and fire under non-ideal conditions. You may not even have two free hands. So what is the point of carrying without a round in the chamber of a semi-auto if it is being carried for self-defense?

If you're that worried about spring-set on magazines (a non-issue IMHO -- it's repeated cycling of the spring that fatigues the spring metal), insert mag, rack slide to chamber a round and then go around with your magazine -1 but your chamber LOADED AND READY FOR ACTION.

Last edited by perpster; December 23, 2008 at 12:45 PM. Reason: Edited to add: I ALWAYS carry with full mag and loaded chamber. It's a tool ready for use, not a conversation piece.
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Old December 23, 2008, 01:01 PM   #56
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This thread is about topping off the magazine after making a condition one pistol...not carrying a condition three pistol.
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Old December 23, 2008, 01:04 PM   #57
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My FNP9 has 16+1 capacity. I keep a round chambered with 15 in the mag.
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Old December 23, 2008, 01:34 PM   #58
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Creature, you are right -- I didn't read carefully. Mea Culpa.

Yes, I top-off the mag after stripping one into the chamber. Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it. The weight of that one bullet won't kill me, but not having that weight might get me killed.
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Old December 23, 2008, 03:15 PM   #59
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More than physics is involved, as spring manufacturers themselves will tell you. The manufacturers cannot agree on what causes fatigue, it seems rather presumptious for others to declare the debate over and done with. In fact, machinists list numerous casues of spring failure incluiding both repeated compression and extended compression.
My HD mags get new ammo in them about once a year and my carry mags about every 6 months.

The springs in my range mags sure seem to lose tension much sooner than the mags i keep loaded up for extended periods of time.The carry mags also seem to lose tension slightly faster than the mags used for HD.

This tells me that cycling wears out springs much quicker than keeping them compressed.
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Old December 23, 2008, 04:16 PM   #60
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ive had m4/m16 mag springs fail, both from over-usage, and just sitting for a
year full of blanks.

ive got over 18000rds thru my 4 xd mags and all springs are still strong.

like stated above i often have to unload my cary pistol, if ive got that +1 in there its just gonna be loose in my pocket and ill end up loosing it.
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Old December 23, 2008, 04:49 PM   #61
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But -- there's always that chance, however remote, that the 15th round is the one that is critical.
And there is always that chance, however remote, that the 16th round is the one that is critical. And there is always that chance, however remote, that the 17th round is the one that is critical. And there is always that chance, however remote, that the 18th round is the one that is critical. And there is always that chance, however remote, that the 19th round is the one that is critical. And there is always that chance, however remote, that the 20th round is the one that is critical. And so on. No matter where one draws the line it is always an arbitrary decision, and arguing that 15 is better than 14 is no different than arguing 15 is not as good as 16.
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Why go out of your way to handicap yourself?
You assume it is a handicap. Others might suggest that the handicap is in reducing the potential liability of the gun by fully loading the mag, or a variety of other things.
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Old December 23, 2008, 04:53 PM   #62
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You can only carry the maximum allowed by the gun/mag.

So why not do so?

If the capacity is too low for ones comfort than get another gun...and then load it to max as well.
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Old December 24, 2008, 04:33 AM   #63
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22-Mag is correct about the springs, so you may as well accept it. It's a fact of physics.

More than physics is involved, as spring manufacturers themselves will tell you. The manufacturers cannot agree on what causes fatigue, it seems rather presumptious for others to declare the debate over and done with. In fact, machinists list numerous causes of possible spring failure including both repeated compression and extended compression.

Quote:
On another note, no springs as bad as you are talking about would even be used in a gun or magazine.

And yet we have seen it on more than one occasion. I've never had a Glock mag fail me, I've had a couple of 1911 mags go down without any extended cycling. I've seen shotgun mag springs lose their set without any large amount of cycling but a lot of sitting around loaded
Well, that is certainly something for me to ponder, in the event I come across anyone else, with the same opinons, who is an authority on the matter.
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Old December 24, 2008, 10:45 AM   #64
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If I ever get into a shootout with someone I hope its someone that doesn't have their magazine topped off. It would be even better if they had to chamber a round before shooting at me. Enough said
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Old December 24, 2008, 10:53 AM   #65
Dresden2001
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Yes. I carry cocked and locked, and I usually have an extra magazine. In my double action semi autos (P229, P232) I also carry one in the chamber and the magazine completely full. I don't keep one in the chamber in my .223 or my 12 ga., but the magazines are full.

I would always avail myself of a design feature that the gun's manufacturer offered me. . .
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Old December 24, 2008, 11:43 AM   #66
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Well, that is certainly something for me to ponder, in the event I come across anyone else, with the same opinons, who is an authority on the matter.
you mean, maybe, like the folks at Wolff Gun Springs?
Magazine springs in semi-auto pistols are one of the most critical springs and are the subject of much debate and concern. Magazines which are kept fully loaded for long periods of time, such as in law enforcement and personal/home defense applications, will generally be subject to more fatigue than the weekend shooter's magazine springs in which the magazines are loaded up only when shooting.
Magazine design and capacity also affect the longevity of the spring. In many older pistol designs, maximum capacity was not the always the goal such as with the 7 round 1911 Colt magazines will last for years fully loaded. There was room for more spring material in these guns which reduces overall stress and increases the usable life of the spring.
More recently higher capacity magazine have become popular. These are designed to hold more rounds with less spring material often in the same space. This puts more stress on the spring and will cause it to fatigue at a faster rate. Unloading these magazines a round or two will help the life of the spring. Rotating fully loaded magazines will also help the problem somewhat but it is not always practical.
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Old December 24, 2008, 11:45 AM   #67
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There's always an extra zombie!

Anyway, what's with this I have to unload the gun at gun shows. You can't carry at most gunshows, so leave the gun in the car. Or is it cool to walk around with an unloaded gun. Ours don't like loaded mags, so you ain't loading the gun quickly for the zombies.

Anyway, the zombies hang at the jerky table - so just avoid it.
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Old December 24, 2008, 11:58 AM   #68
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I only go +1 when I am going to a hostile situation. Otherwise its just one in the chamber, and mag also not stuffed to limit.
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Old December 24, 2008, 01:01 PM   #69
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This is non scientific, but I was taught that if substantial force is required to seat a fully loaded mag against a closed slide/action, then it is indicated to download by one. This might just be a tactical consideration, so that it is easier to properly seat the mag when doing something like a tactical reload, but the same principle applies to topping off.

But beyond tactical and practical considerations if a mag is difficult to seat when fully loaded I think that also implies that the spring is perhaps being hyper compressed, and I'd tend to not top that magazine off.

For example, with my USPc, if I use the flat based magazine I really need to push hard on the mag to seat it if fully loaded; therefore I download by one. With the regular baseplate the spring must have a little more room because a fully loaded mag seats quite easily. I've switched to carrying these mags now, and I do top off when using them.

In my G17, the 17 rounder seats quite easily when fully loaded, therefore I top off. I tried my 17 rounder with the +2 extension, and it was significantly harder to seat that particular mag when fully loaded, so I downloaded that one by one.

Again, probably unscientific, but this approach seems to work well.
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Old December 24, 2008, 01:31 PM   #70
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apropos of nothing. We are mandated by General Order to carry FULLY loaded magazines in our weapons, Weekly weapon inspection to include magazine inspection.
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Old December 24, 2008, 03:40 PM   #71
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David Armstrong---

You still haven't revealed your source of all this wonderful information. LOL.
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Old December 24, 2008, 03:47 PM   #72
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Cocked and Locked

+1
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Old December 25, 2008, 09:37 AM   #73
WC145
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I only go +1 when I am going to a hostile situation. Otherwise its just one in the chamber, and mag also not stuffed to limit.
Wow, wish I always knew when I was going to face a hostile situation, then I'd only carry a gun on those days. I'm stuck with only the 5 basic senses so I keep my guns fully loaded, since I can't anticipate when a hostile situation will arise.
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Old December 25, 2008, 04:23 PM   #74
Stevie-Ray
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And there is always that chance, however remote, that the 16th round is the one that is critical. And there is always that chance, however remote, that the 17th round is the one that is critical. And there is always that chance, however remote, that the 18th round is the one that is critical. And there is always that chance, however remote, that the 19th round is the one that is critical. And there is always that chance, however remote, that the 20th round is the one that is critical. And so on. No matter where one draws the line it is always an arbitrary decision, and arguing that 15 is better than 14 is no different than arguing 15 is not as good as 16.
Amen, David! And I'd like to know why all these "Why handicap yourself" people and Murphyites aren't carrying PLR-16s with 30 round mags. Oh, I see, it's because then they'd probably need 32 rounds for their next gunfight. People, if Mr. Murphy is going to smile on your day, your plus ones aren't going to cut it. Neither is your extra mag.

Quote:
Anyway, what's with this I have to unload the gun at gun shows. You can't carry at most gunshows, so leave the gun in the car. Or is it cool to walk around with an unloaded gun. Ours don't like loaded mags, so you ain't loading the gun quickly for the zombies.
Uh, yeah. It's just so cool to carry an unloaded gun that I can't resist. How about because in this area cars are broken into about 10 times more than houses? I don't particularly want to lose a handgun at all, let alone the legal problems that may arise in the following months. What the hell is the problem with safeing your gun, letting them put a zip-tie through the barrel and having them cut it off and reloading before exit? I find it pretty easy. But I don't want a loose round rolling around in my pocket. So the full mag is enough, thank you.
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Old December 25, 2008, 07:01 PM   #75
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if i have to empty a clip, then god help me.
He helps those who help themselves...now top off the mag and carry on smartly.
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