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Old December 24, 2008, 04:58 PM   #1
Only S&W and Me
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Scenarios For Drawing and Fatal Shot?

Hi All....new to this forum and been reading the great info here. Not sure if consolidated in some other thread, but just got the CCW permit and still trying to train mind mentally to the scenarios/situation to draw the gun and take a fatal shot if necessary....of course situations only where I feared for my life but just to make sure here, I would like some "yes" or "no" answers (or longer answers) to the following typical scenes (of course endless but here are typicals):

1. In Bank or restaurant, BG or BG's with gun(s) tells all to get to floor while he/they robs. Can I take a shot at him even though not direct threat to my face, as just one of the scared crowd not knowing their intentions?

2. While walking, attacked from behind from a small BG and knocked over tries to get my wallet. BG has no gun. Can I shoot him immediately if I get a chance of recovery (I could possibly try to run but he may chase not knowing his potential hardware)?

3. Scenario #2 with gun and knock down . Obvious I draw mine and shoot?

4. Walking on trail, I **** off a guy who doesnt like my dogs running free, I smart azz back saying who owns this trail, the guy says, I think I'll have to kick your azz/or kill you (no weapon brought out). He approaches close with attempted physical harm. I could run, but may not be time to react faste enough. Should I draw and possible fire? Draw and scare may be better here..

5. Car Jack, guy comes to car as I am opening door. No apparent weapon I can see as he grabs my arm. He asks for the keys. I am prepared as have concealed holster gun ready to rock. Can I draw and shoot?


I stuggle with the gun no gun scenarios....I assume I can fear for my life when a gun is not present but the later jury could argue about the the size of attacker and options for me to flee if they are present right?

I assume anytime a gun is drawn on me first I can draw and shoot since I am in fear for my life??

Last edited by Only S&W and Me; December 24, 2008 at 08:54 PM.
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Old December 24, 2008, 06:07 PM   #2
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One never attempts what you term a 'fatal shot'. One shoots to stop the threat, period. If a death occurs, and it may, your intention was simply to stop the threat.

Other scenarios are simply situations where you would have to decide if you could articulate that you were in fear for your life. This does not mean that you decide to use deadly force simply because you are scared.
Consider how a jury of reasonable adults would view a perfectly healthy man (assuming you are one) using deadly force when he could avoid contact altogether or simple defensive tactics sans firearm.

Good luck
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Old December 24, 2008, 06:15 PM   #3
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anytime you have to shoot, you always, always, say "i was in fear for my life"
and "i need to speak to my attorney first"
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Old December 24, 2008, 06:58 PM   #4
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Good info Gents....Thanks...stop the threat, I feared for my life.
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Old December 24, 2008, 07:11 PM   #5
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I am not a lawyer and every State has its own laws that surround use of force. That being said...

You may want to read up on (Ability, opportunity, jeopardy). Just google it and you will find several refrences as it related to use-of-force.
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Old December 24, 2008, 08:42 PM   #6
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Quote:
4. Walking on trail, I **** off a guy who doesnt like my dogs running free, I smart azz back saying who owns this trail, the guy says, I think I'll have to kick your azz/or kill you (no weapon brought out). He approaches close with attempted physical harm. I could run, but may not be time to react faste enough. Should I draw and possible fire? Draw and scare may be better here..
Get bigger dogs...
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Old December 24, 2008, 08:47 PM   #7
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Generally, if you reasonably fear for your life and cannot safely retreat then deadly force is justified in almost all jurisdictions. Some states/jurisdictions and/or physical places do not require retreat. There's no substitute for knowing the laws in your area.

As has been stated, you do not shoot with the intention to kill even if that is the virtually guaranteed outcome. You are stopping the threat.

Quote:
I assume anytime a gun is drawn on me first I can draw and shoot since I am in fear for my life??
Your problem here is that you are FAR behind the reactionary curve. Drawing on a BG that already has his gun on you is a recipe for an early funeral. Sometimes you have no choice, sometimes you do.
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Old December 24, 2008, 08:48 PM   #8
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I already have 4!

Anyways....found this link. More info, at least for the Michigan CCW guys.

http://agonist.org/Learning-Center/M...to_draw%3F.htm
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Old December 24, 2008, 08:51 PM   #9
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#4 smart azz, draw and scare? if you have dogs you might want to leash them on public trails, i have dogs, but some folks have an aversion that i dont quite understand and they are deathly serious in thier fear which i always forget is possible. no need to ruin a hike over a few leashes.

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Old December 25, 2008, 12:54 PM   #10
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First, understand that state laws vary and what works in Peoria might not work in Flint or Detroit. Even within a given state, District Attorney's (DAs) often have their own axes to grind. One DA may refuse to indict in a given case where another one would be pushing hard for a conviction.


Quote:
1. In Bank or restaurant, BG or BG's with gun(s) tells all to get to floor while he/they robs. Can I take a shot at him even though not direct threat to my face, as just one of the scared crowd not knowing their intentions?
In general you want to avoid shooting in places where there are lots of other people. Each of your bullets has liability attached if it hits an innocent person. If the robbers focus is to rob the bank/business chances are that's all that will happen. No sense in starting a shootout and risking many lives. If the robbers are violent-prone, pistol whipping or injuring people, you have to weigh the risk to you and others before shooting.

But if your hypothetical robbers are taking the time to strip people of their valuables and/or patting them down for things like cell phones and blackberries, it may be that they'll obtain your weapon too. You'll be at the short end of the stick without the element of surprise too.


Quote:
2. While walking, attacked from behind from a small BG and knocked over tries to get my wallet. BG has no gun. Can I shoot him immediately if I get a chance of recovery (I could possibly try to run but he may chase not knowing his potential hardware)?

3. Scenario #2 with gun and knock down . Obvious I draw mine and shoot?
#2 is called a strong-arm robbery. No weapon was involved. Can you articulate how you feared for your life? Keep in mind that you'll have to articulate this to your lawyer after you told police you feared for your life and then quit talking. The police report will not the battery upon you and the fact that the deceased had no firearm.

#3 is an armed robbery. If he threatened you with the gun (or a fair sized knife) most people might consider it sufficient to shoot. But if the police arrive and his gun is concealed out of sight and you fail to mention it before it is discovered, you can't justify your shooting based on his possession of a weapon that you didn't see him using.

Quote:
4. Walking on trail, I **** off a guy who doesnt like my dogs running free, I smart azz back saying who owns this trail, the guy says, I think I'll have to kick your azz/or kill you (no weapon brought out). He approaches close with attempted physical harm. I could run, but may not be time to react faste enough. Should I draw and possible fire? Draw and scare may be better here..
Ask yourself if you would smart-mouth the guy if you were unarmed. Also ask yourself if there are any regulations about letting your dogs run free. Many DAs would claim that your reply was inflamatory and caused the other party to get angry. And because you knew you were armed, you did it knowing you could shoot him, so you acted (in part) as the bully here.

A better response might be to aplogize and say that you didn't think there were many people along the trail. Or that you were just about to re-leash the dogs. De-escalate the situation even if it means eating a little humble pie. Do you really want to shoot someone over such a trival dispute?

Quote:
5. Car Jack, guy comes to car as I am opening door. No apparent weapon I can see as he grabs my arm. He asks for the keys. I am prepared as have concealed holster gun ready to rock. Can I draw and shoot?
In most states, mere assault or battery is a misdemeanor. When two or more gang up on a victim and inflict injury it might give rise to felony charges. In general, it's a bad idea to shoot for misdemeanor crimes. If your assailant says something like give me your car keys or I'll kill you his intent rises above mere misdemeanor into GTA (grand theft auto) and robbery. Now you know his intent is a felony and can defend yourself appropriately.

Also note that if you're 6 feet tall and your assailant is on 5'4" tall there will be questions about how credible his threat(s) were.

Quote:
I stuggle with the gun no gun scenarios....I assume I can fear for my life when a gun is not present but the later jury could argue about the the size of attacker and options for me to flee if they are present right?

I assume anytime a gun is drawn on me first I can draw and shoot since I am in fear for my life??
Don't limit yourself to the idea of a gun drawn on you. A knife, broken bottle, baseball bat, pool cue, etc are all weapons that can seriously hurt you.

There are times when you can defend yourself even if no weapon is visible. Being knocked to the ground in a on-going, violent beating where you fear losing conciousness and being beaten to death (or having your gun taken and used to execute you). Or facing an angry man who is much larger or physical than you are who utters his intent ti do you great harm.
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Old December 25, 2008, 01:34 PM   #11
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Old December 25, 2008, 05:17 PM   #12
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Bill

Thank you...great summary. I hope this also helps others here....it sure did with me.

Constant learning with this new hardware.....
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Old December 25, 2008, 06:21 PM   #13
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Only S&W and Me.

Every situation you encounter in life has a right solution, a maybe solution, and a "HELL DON'T DO THAT" solution.

You are far better off being on your toes, and being alert, than having bottled ideas in your head on how to react to various situations you have invented in your head.

I have carried guns in different parts of the world, for different reasons, had occasion to point them, without the necessity of having to shoot anyone, no one, I am 73.

Learn the laws in your State, get proficient with your CCW weapon, dry fire is cheap, over and over, up to point of aim- challenge "Don't MOVE" lots of volume, and also, draw aim and click!

Just because you are carrying a pistol does not mean it is always a gun solution, you have hands and feet.

Do some self defense training, quite possibly some weapon training.

You never know, you might go two or three weeks and not get in a gun fight!

Welcome to the world of responsible weapon carriers!
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Old December 25, 2008, 06:42 PM   #14
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Legal advice is worth exactly what you pay for it and on-line legal advice is worth even less.
Best bet, take a course specifically having curriculum based around these questions and concerns. If there's this much "what if" going through your head the course you took for the CCW certainly wasn't enough. You need to go above and beyond what's minimally required. One doesn't go deep sea diving after a short basic swim lesson so why rely on a basic firearms course to be all one needs for defensive/concealed carrying of a handgun?
The better ones -Thunder Ranch, Frontsight, LFI - also bring a bit of real-world feeling into thier curriculum with live fire drills in mock situations. if one's serious enough, the time/expense shouldn't be an issue.
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Old December 26, 2008, 01:56 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by BlkHawk73
...Best bet, take a course specifically having curriculum based around these questions and concerns. ...the CCW certainly wasn't enough. You need to go above and beyond what's minimally required. One doesn't go deep sea diving after a short basic swim lesson so why rely on a basic firearms course to be all one needs for defensive/concealed carrying of a handgun?
The better ones -Thunder Ranch, Frontsight, LFI - also bring a bit of real-world feeling into thier curriculum with live fire drills in mock situations. if one's serious enough, the time/expense shouldn't be an issue.
+1. this is serious business and warrants serious training and education. And another good school is Gunsite in Arizona (http://www.gunsite.com/). Good training is time and money well spent.
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Old December 31, 2008, 06:11 AM   #16
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First of all, you should know the law/s in your area, Im not very familiar with your laws as Iam from the Philippines, Ive been carrying pistols and for the last 24 years of my life as a member of the Phil Marines but you see sir, not all problems and threats can be solve by pointing a gun, remember after you shoot someone (unless your in the military raid) there are always legal and moral recriminations. Nevertheless, when you think that a gun is indeed the solution, then by all means go for it. Always insist that the reason that you did shoot the bad guy is that "YOU ARE IN FEAR OF YOUR LIFE AND YOU IT WAS AN ACT OF SELF DEFENSE."
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Old December 31, 2008, 07:02 AM   #17
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If you are in Florida and your dogs are running loose anywhere except your personal property or a designated "dog park", YOU are in violation of both state and county (every county has similar laws) law. All animals MUST be leashed at all times. So if I happen to come across you on that trail with your dogs, I may be forced to shoot them if I think they are a threat to me.

Not saying I would, but it's just something to add to your thinking. Because I probably wouldn't have a gun with me. I don't have my permit yet. But I would truly hate for your dogs to get a face full of pepper spray.

Put the pups on leashes like laws, and general common courtesy, demand.
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Old December 31, 2008, 11:44 AM   #18
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Quote:
1. In Bank or restaurant, BG or BG's with gun(s) tells all to get to floor while he/they robs. Can I take a shot at him even though not direct threat to my face, as just one of the scared crowd not knowing their intentions?
Yes you can, but it is not a good idea.
Quote:
2. While walking, attacked from behind from a small BG and knocked over tries to get my wallet. BG has no gun. Can I shoot him immediately if I get a chance of recovery (I could possibly try to run but he may chase not knowing his potential hardware)?
Yes you can, but it is not a good idea.
Quote:
3. Scenario #2 with gun and knock down . Obvious I draw mine and shoot?
Yes you can, but it is not a good idea. (Starting to see a pattern here?)
Quote:
4. Walking on trail, I **** off a guy who doesnt like my dogs running free, I smart azz back saying who owns this trail, the guy says, I think I'll have to kick your azz/or kill you (no weapon brought out). He approaches close with attempted physical harm. I could run, but may not be time to react faste enough. Should I draw and possible fire? Draw and scare may be better here..
No.
Quote:
5. Car Jack, guy comes to car as I am opening door. No apparent weapon I can see as he grabs my arm. He asks for the keys. I am prepared as have concealed holster gun ready to rock. Can I draw and shoot?
Yes, but it is not a good idea.

The above is all subject to change/interpretation based on your state laws and numerous other variables, particularly #2 and 3. My point is that you are looking at it from the wrong perspective. "Can I shoot" is one thing, "should I shoot" is another. Shooting should be a last resort to save your life, not a first resort to stop a crime.
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Old December 31, 2008, 11:49 AM   #19
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Quote from Bill
"Do you really want to shoot someone over such a trivial dispute? "
Well said.

Its hard not to respond to a confrontation with aggression. We were taught in CCW class that if you respond with aggression and it spirals into a shooting then its a bad shoot and you can go to jail. We were told to check our egos at the door when you carry. This is no way intended as advice, legal or otherwise, just what we were taught in class.
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Old December 31, 2008, 07:55 PM   #20
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Good points but please point out a simple scenario where, "I should draw and possibly shoot". These listed are the most typical crime acts and your advice is in most cases is to keep the gun the holster..... what scene would merit drawing to stop the threat (outside of the home or rape)?
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Old December 31, 2008, 09:04 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Only S&W and Me
...but please point out a simple scenario where, "I should draw and possibly shoot".... what scene would merit drawing to stop the threat...
I don't think this type of question can be answered properly using a "cookbook" approach, i. e., if A then do B. First, much depends on the exact law of the jurisdiction in which the event takes place. Second, it's always going to be a matter of judgment based on the exact circumstances. As they say, "The devil is in the details."

The legal standard, in general, is that one may use lethal force only when a reasonable and prudent person, in like circumstances and knowing what you know, would conclude that lethal force is necessary to prevent otherwise unavoidable death or grave bodily injury to an innocent. To demonstrate that there was indeed a real danger from the assailant, one must show that the assailant had (1) the Ability, i. e., the power to deliver force sufficient to cause death or grave bodily harm; (2) the Opportunity, i. e., the assailant was capable of immediately deploying such force; and (3) an innocent was in Jeopardy, i. e., the assailant was acting in such a manner that a reasonable and prudent person would conclude that he has the intent to kill or cripple. A person claiming self defense will need to be able to articulate why in the exact situation as it unfolded he concluded that lethal force was necessary based in the forgoing paradigm.

Your hypotheticals 1, 2, 3, and 5 are simply too broadly drawn to be able to venture a worthwhile opinion. It's all about the details. And in your scenario 4, you are an instigator and therefore not an "innocent" for the purposed of self defense; you are contributing to the escalation of conflict.

There are no simple formulas.
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Old January 1, 2009, 02:05 AM   #22
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Quote:
what scene would merit drawing to stop the threat (outside of the home or rape)?
You don't draw to stop the threat, if I am understanding you correctly. You draw to fire your gun. Sometimes after you have drawn the scenario may have changed so that you no longer see a need. I teach clients that the only scene that you want to use your gun is the scene where you or someone you like a lot is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and using deadly force is the only reasonable response. When is it reasoanble? See fiddletown's post on AOJ. I tend to toss in a "P", as in preclusion myself, but again that varies a lot depending on state law, personal philosophy, etc.
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Old January 1, 2009, 01:57 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Only S&W and Me
Good points but please point out a simple scenario where, "I should draw and possibly shoot". These listed are the most typical crime acts and your advice is in most cases is to keep the gun the holster..... what scene would merit drawing to stop the threat (outside of the home or rape)?
One does not draw on a mere threat or the fear of a threat. You draw in response to a situation in which you believe you are going to sustain great bodily injury or death.

The AOJ above is typical of what's taught. For instance, you exit your house towards your car and your neighbor across the street starts cussing you out about your dog crapping on his lawn. He's holding an aluminum baseball bat, standing at the curb and finishes with "I oughta come over there and beat your [bleep]ing head in!"

He obviously has the means (bat) and a motive (property damage) but he lacks the opportunity because he is well out of range to use his bat. Even if he starts to cross the street in a "rude, angry or threatening manner", most police & DA's will ask why you did not get inside your car or retreat inside your house. (i.e. what did you do to prevent having to use deadly force.)

When circumstances allow it, you should always try something to de-escalate the situation. It may be words, backing away, gesturing agreement or even leaving the area.

However, you should know that an opponent with a knife, club or even bare hands can charge you from approximately 7 yards and inflict serious injury before you can draw your weapon (often called the Tueller drill). While this does not give license to shoot within 7 yards, it does assist in putting together a plausible defense in cases where witnesses might say your assailant was "too far away".
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Old January 1, 2009, 09:43 PM   #24
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In CA you can go to Jail for pulling your gun without legal justification It is called Brandishing. and you can lose your CCW for it.
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Old January 2, 2009, 01:18 PM   #25
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Rather than coming at this through a million individual scenarios, you need a solid foundation of basic principles.

Start here:

www.useofforce.us

and then hit

www.corneredcat.com/Legal/AOJ.aspx (and read the related articles too).

Hope it helps.

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