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Old December 20, 2008, 12:39 PM   #1
Gunfighter123
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9mm for Bowling Pins --- HISTORY

Hello,
I seen a few posts about Pin Matches ---- first a little history.
Way back before even the InterNet --- a guy by the name of Richard Davis was the Father of BP Shoots. He was the inventer of "modern body armor" and he would take his product{called 2nd Chance} to Police Depts. and give a demo ----- he would shoot himself with a .44mag. ,while wearing a 2nd Chance vest , then right afterward , would shoot a few BPs off a table to show that he was unhurt and able to fight back after the vest took the .44mag hit. Do a Net search and you may still find vids of Mr. Davis doing so.
Well , after a year or two --- he started to make money selling his 2nd Chance vests ---- he decided to start The 2nd Chance Bowling Pin Shoots ---- these were the Grnd Prix of matches in their day -- he had over 100 firearms , a BMW car , cash payback etc. as prizes and the turnout was huge. All the Big Name shooters , at one time or another , competed.
At first , the object was to knock 5 BPs off a 4X8 foot table. The Pins were set back 3 feet from the back edge of the table and the 9MMs just couldn't get enough "momentum" to knock the pins off. Almost all shooters used a .45acp or a .357/.44 revolver.
Then Mr. Davis started to add other "events" such as the 9 Pin -- it had 9 BPs set up with the pins 1 FOOT from the back edge of the table. Reason being --- most 9mms were Hi-Cap and at 1 foot , they could be knocked off the table.
There was also a snub-nose gun event , a .22rf event , shotgun and battle rifle event etc. BTW --- only revolver shooters could use a 2nd revolver as Mr. Davis started calling that a "New York Reload"
After another couple years --- Mr. Davis redesigned the Main Tables so that the 5 Pin layout was as such ----- 3 Pins on the table and a single pin 2 feet UP on a shelf , left and right hand side of table.
People were getting runs in the sub-2 sec.for 5 Pins and these new table really slowed/changed the way the top shooters cleared them.
Other times , I seen where just the "necks" of used up Pins were cut off and placed right on the back edge of tables for the .22rf event.
I even seen where their were FULL AUTO tables for BP Shoots --- as Archie Bunker always sadi -- " THOSE WERE THE DAYS ".
Glad to see a small comeback in Bowling Pin SHoots
Have fun ---- GF123
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Old December 22, 2008, 11:31 PM   #2
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I still mourn the passing of the Second Chance Bowling Pins Shoots!!!!!!
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Old December 23, 2008, 04:37 AM   #3
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Ah yes I wore one of Bill's vests for many years.

I went to one of the local bowling alleys with my brother in law and picked up over 500 used pins for free said just get them the hell out of here.
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Old December 23, 2008, 07:38 AM   #4
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I have a newbie's BP question: How long do the pins last when shot with 9MM and up?
Seems it would be rather hard on the pins.
Thanks,

RMD
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Old December 27, 2008, 11:20 AM   #5
Gunfighter123
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rduckwor -------- hard question !!! My best Guess is a pin will absorb about 15/20 CENTER hits before its "shot" ---- remember that the "sweet spot" on a pin is about 3 or 4 inches.
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Old December 28, 2008, 08:30 AM   #6
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Quote:
rduckwor -------- hard question !!! My best Guess is a pin will absorb about 15/20 CENTER hits before its "shot" ---- remember that the "sweet spot" on a pin is about 3 or 4 inches.
Thanks Gunfighter.

RMD
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Old December 28, 2008, 11:10 AM   #7
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Weather will actually have an affect on the pins as well. If it's cold outside and the pins are frozen, they tend to get more brittle and have an increased adverse reaction to bullets.

Which is an overly verbose way of saying "they blow up", especially when you shoot them with the big boomers like .44 and .45 caliber cartridges.
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Old December 28, 2008, 11:18 AM   #8
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I have never used 9mm on them but with 38's and 44spl or 45ball they lasted a bit what really messes them up are the magnum calibers. Dont try low base 8's on them the pellets come back with a vengance. 00 Buck really tears them up and rifled slugs destroy them.
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Old December 30, 2008, 08:54 AM   #9
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Yes those were the days, pin shooting was my first love when it came to competition shooting.
I've shot the bigger pin matches in several different States, my favorite of them all was the Pin Nationals at Waterloo Iowa.
There's a video on my website of me shooting a pin match in South Connellsville Pennsylvania.
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Old December 30, 2008, 09:03 AM   #10
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I have a place where there's a tree right in front of a giant hill that makes an awesome backstop (out here in the desert). I hang a bowling pin from the tree with a rope tied around it's neck and shoot it to get it swinging then practice hitting it while it's swinging. It's a fun workout for my XD9 with 17 rounds. I shoot them with my .357 Mag too and that really pushes them around!

Armsmaster270 is right, the 12 gauge slugs blow the hell out of them. I usually save the slugs for the ones I'm ready to trash anyway and then only once in awhile since it's a little bit of a pain to clean up the mess after blowing them away with slugs. My 6.5x55 blew the hell out of a pin too with a 140 grain Federal Power-Shok. It was very similar to the 12 gauge Foster's slugs, so much so I was surprised.
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Old December 30, 2008, 10:29 AM   #11
Gunfighter123
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Bob ---- that was a great vid , what was the time ?? 2 - 2 1/2 sec ???

You all should check out the vid from Hunter Customs --- it shows the "new" table layout for Pins.

BTW ---- with a Rem 1100 and 00 buck , I did have a few sub 2 sec. runs --- with a centerfire HG , Low 3s to mid 2s would make me giggle !!!!!
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Old December 31, 2008, 05:16 PM   #12
Don Gwinn
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I've never gotten out to a pin shoot, but I love reading about the old Second Chance events at www.brianenos.com where a lot of the guys who were there are telling the stories.

There was some truly wild stuff going on there, and really, they were lucky nobody got killed. It's sad to think of the way Davis ended up, but the man had his fun while it lasted.
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Old December 31, 2008, 06:23 PM   #13
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Don, I never mentioned this at Blackwater, but if you're even in the Indy area around the 3rd saturday of X month, let me know and we'll shoot some pins together. I know I shoot the wrong game and everything, but we can put that aside to murder some pins!
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Old January 2, 2009, 04:49 PM   #14
Don Gwinn
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I need to write down which one is the wrong game--I know one is tactical and one trains you to lose, but I can never remember which is which.

I keep thinking I need to get to Indy, but I don't think it'll happen until at least summer. There's too much going on this semester, and this is the year they either give me tenure or send me packing, so work is crazy too.
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Old January 2, 2009, 05:06 PM   #15
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Summer's fine - it's lousy shooting weather out here right now anyway.
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Old January 2, 2009, 08:39 PM   #16
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Gunfighter123,
Glad you liked the video, the table was a 2.7 run. At the end of my pin shooting career I was shooting tables in the low 2's when timed by a stop watch, my fastest run on a last shot stop timer was 1.65.
I sure hated to see the big pin matches die out.
I did not know the video was be taken, the gentleman that took the video called me and ask if I would like a copy.
Regards
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Old January 3, 2009, 02:44 AM   #17
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"...they were lucky nobody got killed..." Absolutely not. The Second Chance Combat shoots were 100% safe. Shooter's brought their families knowing they'd be completely safe. Any idiocy was jumped on, immediately, by anybody who witnessed it. Never saw anything happen that was in the least bit dangerous. No drunks with firearms, no violence of any kind. Not even a harsh words between spouses. It just wasn't allowed.
"...All the Big Name shooters..." Yep. Most of 'em ignored the rest of us. Massad Ayoob wasn't one of 'em though. I still owe him an apology. He sat down with us two Canadian bozos and tried to start a conversation. I was in awe that a celebrity would initiate a conversation with me. Jim Scoutten, wasn't there(pity), but he answers his e-mail himself.
Dickie Davis used to say he told his wife he invited 600 of his closest friends to come shoot. Best vacations I've ever had. Factory reps and most of the big name smithies(met Mr Hogue. He had a card table set up.) were there with assorted firearms you could shoot. Their ammo, usually, for a nominal fee. .50 BMG, Vickers MG, M60, Thompson, American 180 .22lr mg.
The Colt rep was there, one year, with an M16K. FA in 9mm. He came back to his picnic table while my buddy and I were loading his mags wih IVI ball. Didn't bother him a bit. Friggin' SMG was accurate too. Had no problem hitting an IPSC target, up hill, at 150 yards.
One guy had a Hotchkiss MG. He said he got it from some VFW, bought 1,000,000 rounds of ammo(could be had then). The guy did nothing but load 25 round ammo trays and shoot it. For a week.
"...still mourn the passing of the Second Chance Bowling Pins Shoots..." You bet. Local politics caused the end of Dick's shoots. Local politicians decided that having a big pile of money(guessing the better part of a million) dropped into the local economy(a resort area) wasn't as important as being anti-firearm. Match entry fees did not include accomodations or breakfast(coffee and fruit was available though). They did include lunch and dinner.
"...How long do the pins last..." Until they got too heavy for a cast 230 grain .45 to knock them off the table. (9mm events were a side event, just like the SMG and team events.) My souvenir pin(they're 10 pin, pins) weighs 2 pounds. Haven't a clue what they weight without the lead.
"...never gotten out to a pin shoot..." Find one and go. Don't worry about placing. Pin shooting is far too much fun for that.
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Old January 8, 2009, 12:01 AM   #18
Don Gwinn
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I'm not trying to pick on anybody, but the guys at Enos' forum tell stories of people doing things like shooting residential propane tanks with machine guns. I recall one tale in particular in which Richard Davis took a client and the client's wife out to shoot these huge propane tanks (the sort of tank you see in the yard in rural areas, made to store enough propane to run a household.) Davis shot a tank in one end, which caused it to spin wildly--and move toward Davis, his client, and this poor woman who probably hadn't wanted to be there in the first place, with alarming alacrity. Davis kept pouring fire into it and eventually got it stopped, but it was a close call.

That one's buried in a long thread at BE.com, but none of the old-timers there mentioned that it wasn't true. It was presented as one of a list of examples of very dangerous stuff that was considered part of the wild atmosphere.

Again, I didn't post that to ruffle any feathers. That's simply what I was told by people who were there.
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