AK47's in the Civil War?

Darthmaum · August 10, 1999, 11:06 PM

On a thread a while back someone mentioned a book where some South Africans went back in time and supplied the South with AKs during the War Betwixt the States. I didn't write down the title or name of the book but would really like to read it.

Since the search is down, I thought I would post this. Can someone tell me the name of the book, the author's name, and where I can get a copy of it?

Thanks in advance for your help!

------------------
"...What will you do without freedom? Will you fight?... Fight, and you may die, run and you'll live, at least a while. And dying, many years from now, would you be willing to trade all the days from this day to that, for just one chance, to tell our enemies, that they may take our lives, but they'll never take our FREEDOM!!!"
-------------------------
je suis prest

bruels · August 10, 1999, 11:31 PM

"Guns of the South" I think is the name by Henry Turtledove. He has written a number of "alternative" history novels.

I've seen his books in B. Dalton's.

[This message has been edited by bruels (edited August 11, 1999).]

Razor · August 10, 1999, 11:55 PM

"The Guns of the South" by Harry Turtledove 1992. He specializes in alternative history fiction. You should be able to find it in just about any bookstore.

Ed Brunner · August 11, 1999, 05:53 AM

I missed the "back in time" reference as I reject the concept. If anybody could do it though the South Africans would be as good as any.

------------------
Better days to be,

Ed

[This message has been edited by Ed Brunner (edited August 11, 1999).]

Hades · August 11, 1999, 06:01 AM

In a book "The Guns of the South" by Harry Turtledove. A group of people use a time machine to bring loads of AK-47's and ammo back in time to the south. They supply the south with the guns and ammo and teach them to use the guns. The south then wins the war in very short order. I liked the book. it is a good What if type book.

Darthmaum · August 11, 1999, 10:52 PM

Thanks, guys!

I'm gonna try and see if the local library has it, if not I'll go to Barnes n Noble and check w/ them. Maybe they can order it for me.

------------------
"...What will you do without freedom? Will you fight?... Fight, and you may die, run and you'll live, at least a while. And dying, many years from now, would you be willing to trade all the days from this day to that, for just one chance, to tell our enemies, that they may take our lives, but they'll never take our FREEDOM!!!"
-------------------------
je suis prest

**Long Path** · August 11, 1999, 11:15 PM

I haven't read it, but I will. I'm betting that, while the concept is cool, it won't ring true.

While it is fun to think of what an army back then could have done with AK's, just what would the real damage to the Union have been, given that the Union Army was bigger and better supplied? How many AK's are we talking about, here? How much tonnage in ammo and spare parts? I should think one would need to bring in a bare minimum of 10,000 AK's and 2,000,000 rounds to make a strategic difference. However, the psychological impact of these mysterious automatic weapons should not be discounted, I suppose.

One must remember that the very first repeating rifles came on the scene at the time, and really didn't make that big an impact.
------------------

Somebody was telling me of a great novella he'd read which told of a guy flying a modern-day version of an armed SR-71 that takes a near miss of a nuclear-tipped SAM, and gets blown back into 1916, over Europe. Fun story, no? Imagine the Kaiser's Flying Circus being knocked out of the sky merely by a fly-by of a reconnaissance plane at about Mach 3.5! Can't find it, though, and don't know the title...

Jim Keenan · August 11, 1999, 11:22 PM

Hi folks,

So that is where the guy at the gun show got the AK with the CSA stamp and Bobby Lee's signature in electric pencil. And he only wanted $4000. Shoulda bought it.

Seriously, there were no AKs at Gettysburg, but the Discovery Channel did a Bonnie and Clyde biography which showed AKs and SKSs in the graphics.

Jim

RPM · August 12, 1999, 12:10 AM

Long Path:

They never really went into details about exactly how many, but there were enough AK's and ammo to arm almost the entire confederate military. The also brought back other goodies, like mortars and emplaced maching guns.

Correia · August 12, 1999, 03:54 PM

I was the one that posted guns of the south on the booklist. It is an alternative history book. That is Turtledove's specialty, he has another series where space aliens invade during WWII. First off, I enjoyed the book because of the treatment of the firearms, a big part was about the training to the CSA. None of the troops had every used a gun with internal parts before, the idea of field stripping was like putting together a puzzle. And as far as thinking that the guns really wouldn't have made that much of a difference against the well supplied north, do not forget that the underdog south won the first part of the war by trouncing the Union army at Bull Run, Fredricksburg, and Chancelorsville. The morale of the union at that point was very low. Then imagine having to march into a horde of entrenched confederates with automatic rifles. It was a good read.

Jim Keenan · August 12, 1999, 09:46 PM

They weren't selective fire weapons, but imagine the chagrin of the real Confederates who first encountered Federals armed with Spencers.

Jim

Darthmaum · August 13, 1999, 12:33 AM

Jim K,

Too bad ya passed up that one-of-a-kind, piece of history there at the gun show...

I agree with Correia, that we (CSA) would have stood a purty good chance of winning that "recent unpleasantness" if we'd had the AK's. Schmaybe if we had won, we would still be an independent country, not having to mess with all the Liberal, anti-gun mumbo-jumbo goin on now.

sigh...t'were not to be

------------------
"...What will you do without freedom? Will you fight?... Fight, and you may die, run and you'll live, at least a while. And dying, many years from now, would you be willing to trade all the days from this day to that, for just one chance, to tell our enemies, that they may take our lives, but they'll never take our FREEDOM!!!"
-------------------------
je suis prest

Dorsai · August 14, 1999, 06:09 PM

Actually, the fun place to take a load of AK's or SKS's (about 10,000) and 20,000,000 rds of ammo would be the Warsaw ghetto, 1943-44. I imagine that would have been spectacular!

p.s. just in case someone gets the wrong idea, they wouldn't go to the Germans.

------------------
Dorsai
Personal weapons are what raised mankind out of the mud, and the rifle is the queen of personal weapons. The possession of a good rifle, as well as the skill to use it well, truly makes a man the monarch of all he surveys.
-- Jeff Cooper, The Art of the Rifle

spark@onestopknifeshop.com · August 14, 1999, 07:21 PM

Dorsai, no kidding!

Concerning the number of AK's needed, IIRC, the South Africans certainly brought a few train loads in with them, and kept resupplying with them. Not everyone got one, but enough got them to turn the tide in several key battles.

There was mention in the book that the AK's came from several manufacturers out there, and given the widespread distribution of the AK in the world today, it's not that much of a strecth that they would be easy to get in numbers. After all, how many Chinese made ones just got seized last week? Multiply that by the ones from Russia, Hungary, Former Czechs, etc etc etc.

Of course, the South African's were using Apple II's when the book was written...

Spark

------------------
Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com
www.bladeforums.com

**Art Eatman** · August 16, 1999, 11:26 AM

Long Path: The novella you asked about was in "Analog" Science Fact & Fiction; back in the '80s, I think.

They're at http://www.analogsf.com.

An item I remember from the story was that the WW I airplanes, mostly made of wood and fabric, were invisible to radar. The best "weapon", then, was the sonic boom.

Regards, Art

Jack 99 · August 16, 1999, 03:41 PM

Interesting historical footnote:

Dysentary accounted for more than 1/3 of all Civil War casualties.

------------------
"Put a rifle in the hands of a Subject, and he immediately becomes a Citizen." -- Jeff Cooper

BMWGS80 · August 16, 1999, 05:47 PM

In the original story it was the STEN submachine gun from WWII. This was a more practical weapon for the theoredical plot.Given the reality of manufactureing then. The new version was updated with the AK for marketing purposes. Because the "new" generation of editers/readers do not have much knowledge of firearms history or developement.

Cheers,

ts

JJB · August 18, 1999, 11:36 PM

Art and LongPath,

I remember the story as well. But, I think it was earlier than the 80's in ANALOG.

Jim in IN

------------------
-- TANSTAAFL

dZ · August 27, 1999, 04:35 PM

Dakotan · August 31, 1999, 10:52 AM

As a friend and business associate (we had a gun shop) of mine once said: "Sometimes I wish the south had won that damn war!"

August 10, 1999, 11:06 PM	#1
Darthmaum Senior Member Join Date: June 23, 1999 Posts: 394	On a thread a while back someone mentioned a book where some South Africans went back in time and supplied the South with AKs during the War Betwixt the States. I didn't write down the title or name of the book but would really like to read it. Since the search is down, I thought I would post this. Can someone tell me the name of the book, the author's name, and where I can get a copy of it? Thanks in advance for your help! ------------------ "...What will you do without freedom? Will you fight?... Fight, and you may die, run and you'll live, at least a while. And dying, many years from now, would you be willing to trade all the days from this day to that, for just one chance, to tell our enemies, that they may take our lives, but they'll never take our FREEDOM!!!" ------------------------- je suis prest

August 10, 1999, 11:31 PM	#2
bruels Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1998 Location: Hayden, ID, USA Posts: 1,102	"Guns of the South" I think is the name by Henry Turtledove. He has written a number of "alternative" history novels. I've seen his books in B. Dalton's. [This message has been edited by bruels (edited August 11, 1999).]

August 10, 1999, 11:55 PM	#3
Razor Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 1999 Location: NE TN Posts: 104	"The Guns of the South" by Harry Turtledove 1992. He specializes in alternative history fiction. You should be able to find it in just about any bookstore.

August 11, 1999, 05:53 AM	#4
Ed Brunner Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 1998 Location: Natchez, MS, USA Posts: 2,562	I missed the "back in time" reference as I reject the concept. If anybody could do it though the South Africans would be as good as any. ------------------ Better days to be, Ed [This message has been edited by Ed Brunner (edited August 11, 1999).]

August 11, 1999, 06:01 AM	#5
Hades Member Join Date: July 8, 1999 Posts: 37	In a book "The Guns of the South" by Harry Turtledove. A group of people use a time machine to bring loads of AK-47's and ammo back in time to the south. They supply the south with the guns and ammo and teach them to use the guns. The south then wins the war in very short order. I liked the book. it is a good What if type book.

August 11, 1999, 10:52 PM	#6
Darthmaum Senior Member Join Date: June 23, 1999 Posts: 394	Thanks, guys! I'm gonna try and see if the local library has it, if not I'll go to Barnes n Noble and check w/ them. Maybe they can order it for me. ------------------ "...What will you do without freedom? Will you fight?... Fight, and you may die, run and you'll live, at least a while. And dying, many years from now, would you be willing to trade all the days from this day to that, for just one chance, to tell our enemies, that they may take our lives, but they'll never take our FREEDOM!!!" ------------------------- je suis prest

August 11, 1999, 11:15 PM	#7
Long Path Staff Join Date: May 31, 1999 Location: N. Texas Posts: 5,865	I haven't read it, but I will. I'm betting that, while the concept is cool, it won't ring true. While it is fun to think of what an army back then could have done with AK's, just what would the real damage to the Union have been, given that the Union Army was bigger and better supplied? How many AK's are we talking about, here? How much tonnage in ammo and spare parts? I should think one would need to bring in a bare minimum of 10,000 AK's and 2,000,000 rounds to make a strategic difference. However, the psychological impact of these mysterious automatic weapons should not be discounted, I suppose. One must remember that the very first repeating rifles came on the scene at the time, and really didn't make that big an impact. ------------------ Somebody was telling me of a great novella he'd read which told of a guy flying a modern-day version of an armed SR-71 that takes a near miss of a nuclear-tipped SAM, and gets blown back into 1916, over Europe. Fun story, no? Imagine the Kaiser's Flying Circus being knocked out of the sky merely by a fly-by of a reconnaissance plane at about Mach 3.5! Can't find it, though, and don't know the title...

August 11, 1999, 11:22 PM	#8
Jim Keenan Senior Member Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 11,873	Hi folks, So that is where the guy at the gun show got the AK with the CSA stamp and Bobby Lee's signature in electric pencil. And he only wanted $4000. Shoulda bought it. Seriously, there were no AKs at Gettysburg, but the Discovery Channel did a Bonnie and Clyde biography which showed AKs and SKSs in the graphics. Jim

August 12, 1999, 12:10 AM	#9
RPM Member Join Date: August 1, 1999 Posts: 28	Long Path: They never really went into details about exactly how many, but there were enough AK's and ammo to arm almost the entire confederate military. The also brought back other goodies, like mortars and emplaced maching guns.

August 12, 1999, 03:54 PM	#10
Correia Senior Member Join Date: December 3, 1998 Location: SLC Utah Posts: 3,742	I was the one that posted guns of the south on the booklist. It is an alternative history book. That is Turtledove's specialty, he has another series where space aliens invade during WWII. First off, I enjoyed the book because of the treatment of the firearms, a big part was about the training to the CSA. None of the troops had every used a gun with internal parts before, the idea of field stripping was like putting together a puzzle. And as far as thinking that the guns really wouldn't have made that much of a difference against the well supplied north, do not forget that the underdog south won the first part of the war by trouncing the Union army at Bull Run, Fredricksburg, and Chancelorsville. The morale of the union at that point was very low. Then imagine having to march into a horde of entrenched confederates with automatic rifles. It was a good read.

August 12, 1999, 09:46 PM	#11
Jim Keenan Senior Member Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 11,873	They weren't selective fire weapons, but imagine the chagrin of the real Confederates who first encountered Federals armed with Spencers. Jim

August 13, 1999, 12:33 AM	#12
Darthmaum Senior Member Join Date: June 23, 1999 Posts: 394	Jim K, Too bad ya passed up that one-of-a-kind, piece of history there at the gun show... I agree with Correia, that we (CSA) would have stood a purty good chance of winning that "recent unpleasantness" if we'd had the AK's. Schmaybe if we had won, we would still be an independent country, not having to mess with all the Liberal, anti-gun mumbo-jumbo goin on now. sigh...t'were not to be ------------------ "...What will you do without freedom? Will you fight?... Fight, and you may die, run and you'll live, at least a while. And dying, many years from now, would you be willing to trade all the days from this day to that, for just one chance, to tell our enemies, that they may take our lives, but they'll never take our FREEDOM!!!" ------------------------- je suis prest

August 14, 1999, 06:09 PM	#13
Dorsai Member Join Date: February 26, 1999 Location: Loveland, CO USA Posts: 83	Actually, the fun place to take a load of AK's or SKS's (about 10,000) and 20,000,000 rds of ammo would be the Warsaw ghetto, 1943-44. I imagine that would have been spectacular! p.s. just in case someone gets the wrong idea, they wouldn't go to the Germans. ------------------ Dorsai Personal weapons are what raised mankind out of the mud, and the rifle is the queen of personal weapons. The possession of a good rifle, as well as the skill to use it well, truly makes a man the monarch of all he surveys. -- Jeff Cooper, The Art of the Rifle

August 14, 1999, 07:21 PM	#14
spark@onestopknifeshop.com Wise Guy Join Date: October 10, 1998 Posts: 665	Dorsai, no kidding! Concerning the number of AK's needed, IIRC, the South Africans certainly brought a few train loads in with them, and kept resupplying with them. Not everyone got one, but enough got them to turn the tide in several key battles. There was mention in the book that the AK's came from several manufacturers out there, and given the widespread distribution of the AK in the world today, it's not that much of a strecth that they would be easy to get in numbers. After all, how many Chinese made ones just got seized last week? Multiply that by the ones from Russia, Hungary, Former Czechs, etc etc etc. Of course, the South African's were using Apple II's when the book was written... Spark ------------------ Kevin Jon Schlossberg SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com www.bladeforums.com

August 16, 1999, 11:26 AM	#15
Art Eatman Staff Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX, USA Posts: 17,460	Long Path: The novella you asked about was in "Analog" Science Fact & Fiction; back in the '80s, I think. They're at http://www.analogsf.com. An item I remember from the story was that the WW I airplanes, mostly made of wood and fabric, were invisible to radar. The best "weapon", then, was the sonic boom. Regards, Art

August 16, 1999, 03:41 PM	#16
Jack 99 Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 1999 Posts: 1,082	Interesting historical footnote: Dysentary accounted for more than 1/3 of all Civil War casualties. ------------------ "Put a rifle in the hands of a Subject, and he immediately becomes a Citizen." -- Jeff Cooper

August 16, 1999, 05:47 PM	#17
BMWGS80 Senior Member Join Date: April 15, 1999 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 288	In the original story it was the STEN submachine gun from WWII. This was a more practical weapon for the theoredical plot.Given the reality of manufactureing then. The new version was updated with the AK for marketing purposes. Because the "new" generation of editers/readers do not have much knowledge of firearms history or developement. Cheers, ts

August 18, 1999, 11:36 PM	#18
JJB Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 1998 Location: Logansport, IN Posts: 87	Art and LongPath, I remember the story as well. But, I think it was earlier than the 80's in ANALOG. Jim in IN ------------------ -- TANSTAAFL

August 27, 1999, 04:35 PM	#19
dZ Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 1999 Location: the Fetid Swamp, DC Posts: 7,551

August 31, 1999, 10:52 AM	#20
Dakotan Senior Member Join Date: August 24, 1999 Posts: 169	As a friend and business associate (we had a gun shop) of mine once said: "Sometimes I wish the south had won that damn war!"