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Old December 10, 2008, 06:37 AM   #1
Double Naught Spy
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So You Have a Flawless Running Semi-Auto? IISHOT1000 2009

So you have a carry gun that functions flawlessly? Or perhaps you have a new home defense handgun you would like to put through its paces to see how well it can perform? Then this will be a fun and informative match for you!

2008's ISHOT1000 match was a great time and yielded some interesting results (see http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...ight=ishot1000). There are still some guns left untested and some questions to be answered so we are announcing the 2009 IISHOT1000 to be held on 2 May 2009 in Forestburg, Texas. (Forestburg is north of the DFW metroplex.)

The purpose of the match will be the same as last year - 1000 round function testing of guns to see which makes and models perform best. The match will also be designed to challenge the shooter, to be entertaining, and to provide useful trigger time.

There will be no maintenance of ANY kind allowed during the course of twenty, 50 round stages. Malfunctions will be recorded and the results will be posted after the match. While the last match involved a lot of blasting at various stationary and moving targets but no accuracy scoring, this match will include some specific stages that will challenge shooter skills and further test the abilities of the gun. At least four stages will be competitive shooter stages, of which two will address speed (best time) and two will address marksmanship (best score/group). All stages will be shot with a time limit.


Requirements:
Semi-auto carry/defense handgun (.380 caliber or larger)
8 magazines that hold at least 7 rounds each
Holster (or appropriate case)
Standard safety gear (eye/ear)
1000 rounds of factory ammunition (Reloads did not perform well at all last year. The match is not designed to test the reliability of ammunition but rather the reliability of the handguns.)

No Entry Fee is Required
All awards will be in the form of certificates which indicate the performance of the shooter/handgun combination.

Email Double Naught Spy with your email address if you are interested in participating - IISHOT1000@gmail.com
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Last edited by Double Naught Spy; December 11, 2008 at 06:59 AM.
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Old May 2, 2009, 11:07 PM   #2
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Preliminary results

Attendance was down a bit from last year; it appears that ammunition costs were the primary factor.

The weather threatened all day, but although things were very damp throughout the match, it didn't really rain any significant amount until just after the last stage was complete.

There was a bit more variety in the pistols entered this year with only two 1911 style pistols and only one Glock. Other entrants included a couple of Berettas, a Ruger and a Browning HP.

Magazine problems plagued a couple of the shooters, namely the Springfield 1911 shooter. the BHP owner and the shooter using the Beretta 92FS. I'm sure there are some lessons to be learned there.

As with last year, several pistols malfunctioned before the first stage was complete, and again, most pistols had at least a couple of glitches before the 1000 rounds were downrange.



More to follow in the next few days...
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File Type: jpg Results_small.jpg (123.2 KB, 1090 views)
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Last edited by JohnKSa; May 4, 2009 at 12:58 AM. Reason: Corrected Chart
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Old May 3, 2009, 01:21 PM   #3
455sd
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Ammo correction

John-

I was using Blazer Brass, not aluminum, just for the record.
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Old May 3, 2009, 02:31 PM   #4
Ishtacka
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details details.... psh
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Old May 3, 2009, 07:46 PM   #5
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This is something I'd like to have done, although I know that my finicky princess race guns wouldn't last 1000 rounds (well, one of them might). It'd be a hoot if you'd do a set up similar to the Pro-Am, where all the targets are falling steel. 1000 rounds at steel in a day would be a good day.
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Old May 3, 2009, 10:28 PM   #6
455sd
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Quote:
All awards will be in the form of certificates which indicate the performance of the shooter/handgun combination.
I guess that will show up in the mail.
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Old May 3, 2009, 10:39 PM   #7
Double Naught Spy
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In lieu of certificates, shooters who performed well or who had guns that performed well, or knew somebody who had a gun that performed well each rec'd a custom fit official commemorative and quite stylish Horn Hill Range IISHOT1000 2009 match shirt.

Sorry you didn't get one.

Maybe if you would have made the special commemorative lunch last a bit longer...
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File Type: jpg IISHOT1000 2009 Group Photo 1.JPG (72.2 KB, 131 views)
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Old May 4, 2009, 12:52 AM   #8
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Quote:
I was using Blazer Brass, not aluminum, just for the record.
That's exactly what you wrote down on the form. I'll have to reprimand my data entry person for typing in the wrong information.

John,
Why did you type in the wrong information? Type something right for a change, we're paying you for this...


There, it's correct now.

By the way, Darren (455sd) was the Glock 17 shooter. For those who haven't memorized the results from last year, his Colt NRM Commander was one of 3 pistols that made it through the 2008 ISHOT1000 with no malfunctions. So this is the second straight malfunction-free year for Darren and his pistols.

And although he was occasionally heard to complain a bit about the Glock trigger, it should be noted that he turned in the fastest times in the match on the timed stages, both at 15 and 25 yards.
Quote:
In lieu of certificates, shooters who performed well or who had guns that performed well, or knew somebody who had a gun that performed well each rec'd a custom fit official commemorative and quite stylish Horn Hill Range IISHOT1000 2009 match shirt.
I was led to believe that the shirts were going to be pink... Words can not describe my disappointment!

For those who weren't there, the folks in the picture, from left to right are:

John/JohnKSa--Ruger P95
Jerry/littlemac (on GT) --Springfield .45
Brian/Double Naught Spy/Match Organizer/Lunch Provider/Shirt Presenter--BHP
Mike--Beretta 92FS INOX
Ken (who didn't shoot but was a great help in running the match)
Denton/Ishtacka--Kimber TLE/RL
Troy/cowboydoc (on Berettaforum)--Beretta PX4C (.40S&W)
Darren/455sd--Glock 17
Steve (who also didn't shoot but did an excellent job of running the timer for the entire match and also in helping out as needed)
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Old May 4, 2009, 01:36 AM   #9
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Failures to Feed the first round from the magazine

This year, stages alternated between using the "slingshot" method for dropping the slide (odd stage numbers) and using the slide release to drop the slide (even stage numbers).

If we eliminate the BHP and the Springfield .45 which both appeared to have magazine issues, then during the slingshot stages there were 2 failures to feed the first round out of the magazine. During the slide release stages there were 4 failures to feed the first round out of the magazine. The Ruger P95 had its only two failures on a slide release stage (vs. slingshot method) when reloading with fully charged magazines. The P95 was shot for another 100-200 rounds after the match using the slingshot method with fully loaded magazines and experienced no further malfunctions.

Based on these results, it would seem that dropping the slide using the release is more likely to cause a malfunction compared to using the slingshot method. That makes sense if you consider that you usually get a tiny bit more slide travel when using the slingshot method.

Another thing to consider is that if you carry a magazine for a reload (particularly a double-stack magazine), underloading it by a round or two can make feeding that first round a bit more positive since it will require slightly less force to strip the round from the magazine. The P95 had no first round failures to feed until it reached the stages using fully loaded magazines.

If we again eliminate the BHP and the Springfield .45, there were 10 failures to feed overall. Of those failures, 6 were failures to feed the first round of the magazine. In other words, 60% of the failures to feed occurred while chambering the first round out of a magazine. Looking at just the P95 and the PX4C, there were a total of 7 malfunctions between the two pistols of which 6 (86%) were first round failures to feed.

That's something for the empty chamber carry advocates to consider. Carrying a chambered round means you eliminate the possibility of first round failures to feed in an SD/HD situation unless you have to reload. Conversely, carrying chamber empty means that you're planning to perform a relatively error-prone function while under considerable stress.
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Old May 5, 2009, 01:07 AM   #10
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Magazines

The Browning shooter (Double Naught Spy) has done some subsequent testing and it seems that the failures the BHP experienced during the match were due to the use of aftermarket (MecGar) 20 round magazines. While the shooter had used these magazines prior to the match, it took a good deal of shooting to turn up the issue and also to localize it to the specific magazines causing the issues.

The Springfield .45ACP also had a magazine issue. One particular magazine experienced feeding problem on every stage, usually with the 4th round out of the magazine, but also occasionally with the first round. The shooter (Jerry/littlemac) had used that magazine in the past--it seems likely that it was somehow damaged just before the match or during its last use.

The Beretta 92FS INOX shooter (Mike) experienced numerous failures to lock back which are likely either related to the magazines (that was his opinion) or possibly to some issue with the slide release.

So what's the "takeaway"?

1. If you use aftermarket or extended magazines be sure to test them thoroughly. Don't rely solely on recommendations from others or on the company's reputation. The BHP extended magazines were made by MecGar, a company with an excellent reputation, and one that is OEM for more than one gun manufacturer, but the mags still didn't work well in the gun in question.

2. If you subject your magazines to hard wear then test them thoroughly before relying on them for self-defense. Better yet, it might be wise to keep two sets of magazines. One set for gaming/practice and one set that is tested thoroughly and then babied. You don't want to be in the middle of an SD/HD situation and find out that you damaged your magazine during your last match/practice session and now it's failing to feed properly. The Springfield .45 mags had been thoroughly tested, but at some point between the last time they were used and the match, one was damaged enough to cause it to consistently fail to feed.
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Old May 6, 2009, 12:45 AM   #11
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Consistent with last year's results, the number of malfunctions per stage trended downward as the match progressed. Even after removing the malfunctions from the DQed gun, the downward trend is evident.

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Old May 6, 2009, 08:22 PM   #12
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Recount

I understand that John won the group size at 20 yards, but i want a recount. I am not sure that all of John's bullet hit the target therefore his group would have been much larger LM
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Old May 6, 2009, 09:02 PM   #13
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Hi Guys! Congratulations to everyone who participated this year. Especially to Darren for yet another spectacular performance, John for a great showing with a Ruger (though it would be tough to beat his feat of 1,000 rounds of 10mm from last year), and to Denton, who shot lots of pictures last year and lots of ammo this year.

The results are consistent with what we saw last year. While common wisdom would call for more malfunctions toward the end of the match, as is often the case, it would be wrong. Brian and I have discussed this, and I lean heavily towards operator head space and timing issues. Factoring out mechanical inconsistencies such as reloads or a bad magazine, most quality handguns of modern manufacture stand a decent chance of going 1,000 rounds without malfunction with proper maintenance.

It's the human factor that is holding them up. Early in the day, we see more malfunctions while the shooters are still warming up, dealing with nerves, or finding their groove. As everyone settles in, the rate of malfunctions go down. At some point, they would escalate again due to shooter fatigue and lack of maintenance. At least, that's my theory, and I'm stickin' to it. Great job all!
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Old May 6, 2009, 11:38 PM   #14
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Quote:
I understand that John won the group size at 20 yards, but i want a recount. I am not sure that all of John's bullet hit the target therefore his group would have been much larger.
You must think I'm an amateur. After declaring myself the winner I discarded the targets...

Jerry (Jmac2387), by the way, was the Springfield .45 shooter and won the accuracy challenge at the 10 yard line. (Brian scored those targets before I could get to them.)
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Old May 7, 2009, 12:29 AM   #15
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Round Count Estimates & Gun modifications

This information is provided by each shooter at the beginning of the match.

Glock 17: Unknown (purchased used)
Ruger P95: 800 rounds (purchased used, original owner's estimate)
Kimber TLE/RL: 600 rounds
Beretta PX4C: 2,000 rounds
Beretta 92FS INOX: 2,000-3,000 rounds
Browning HP: 2,000 rounds by current owner after being purchased used.
Springfield .45: At least 30,000 rounds

The only gun modified from factory stock condition was the Springfield .45 which had been chrome plated and had a BoMar sight installed.
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Old May 7, 2009, 01:19 AM   #16
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Congrats to all the shooters. Especially in this time, that's quite a competition.

I'm surprised that the guns were factory stock or very close to it. I'm curious if there are any differences or similarities in the maintenance regime. Stuff like how often parts are replaced, how often are the pistols cleaned, oil or grease or Mobil 1 , etc.

Logistically, how did the shooters reload their magazines between stages. There must have been a lot of sore thumbs.
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Old May 7, 2009, 02:30 AM   #17
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Some folks used their thumbs to load, I used an UPLULA loader. A very nice addition to my range gear.

The logistics of the match require that everyone help out when they're not shooting or loading. I would shoot, then immediately reload my magazines while the next shooter shot the stage, then I would keep score for the rest of the stage.

When we dropped from 7 shooters to 6 (due to one shooter having to leave for a family medical emergency) then there wasn't enough time for folks to reload during a stage and we had to take reloading breaks between stages for the rest of the match.

We had one permanent RO and one person manning the timer who never shot.

The entrant briefing encourages the use of unmodified guns since the point is not to test gunsmithing skills or aftermarket add-ons. We don't ask about parts replacements or major maintenance, but that could be added to next year's entry forms.

The entrant briefing encourages the shooters to clean the guns prior to the match using manufacturer recommended procedures, but there's no way to enforce that and so far we haven't asked for the nitty-gritty details of how the various shooters clean their guns and what kind of oil they use.
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Old May 7, 2009, 07:30 AM   #18
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Thanks! That sounds like a hard core day of shooting!
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Old May 7, 2009, 01:54 PM   #19
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What? Where are the Naysayers

I can hardly believe that this thread is 18 posts into it existence without some saying "their" gun or their friends gun could have gone the distance or they know of a pistol that could have won the match.

This was an outstanding match. Kudos to Double Naught Spy
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Old May 7, 2009, 07:13 PM   #20
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OH YEA!!!! MY GUN COULD HAVE..... oh wait....
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Old May 7, 2009, 10:30 PM   #21
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I gladly share my prep and cleaning for the match.

First I field stripped my Glock and hosed it down with brake cleaner.

I then used a bore brush, a few patches, and some Hoppes#9 on the barrel. Scrubbed all the internals with an old tooth brush.

3rd, I sprayed everything down with light coat of RemOil, put one very, very small drop of CLP on the striker spring, then put a small dab of grease on the rails and the locking lugs.

I think the grease was Castrol.

Then I reassembled and packed her away.
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Old May 8, 2009, 01:26 AM   #22
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Magazines used:

Ruger P95: Factory 15 rounders
Browning HP: Factory & MecGar standard capacity mags & MecGar 20 round mags.
Kimber TLE/RL: Wilson 47d mags
Springfield .45: Chip McCormick 10 round mags. The mag that repeatedly failed was a Wilson Combat 10 round mag.
Glock 17: Factory non-drop free standard capacity
Beretta 92FS: Factory standard capacity
Beretta PX4: Factory standard capacity
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Old May 10, 2009, 07:01 PM   #23
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Not to complain but considering my background in statistics, it is not a reliable test because each gun did not use the exact same ammo type. Having different brand ammo in different guns has an effect on the outcome.

But I did like seeing the results anyhow, it's kind of what I expected it to be in that order!
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Old May 10, 2009, 07:16 PM   #24
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Given that not all guns will run equally well on the same ammo, demanding the same ammo be used for all guns would invalidate the testing as well unless you have already shown it to work in every gun first, in the test, the previous test, and any guns to be used in subsequent tests.

So you have a problem there with demanding only one be used. Similarly, it would all need to be from the same lot, which isn't going to happen either. Then what do you do if the chosen ammo brand and model aren't made in all the calibers being tested?
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Old May 10, 2009, 07:22 PM   #25
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Yeah I realize that, and I also now understand that everyone supplied their own ammo and guns for a combination they thought would be most reliable. What I had in my mind was not what actually happened.
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