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Old December 8, 2008, 05:01 PM   #51
rantingredneck
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Don't know that such patterns existed in defensive buckshot loads
It can be done with non-FC loads, but it requires some choking. None of my HD guns (save one recent acquisition) is Cyl bore. All are either fixed IC or have interchangeable chokes.
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Old December 8, 2008, 05:56 PM   #52
45Marlin carbine
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yep, I've got my 'Coach Gun' loaded w/it now. 3" Winchester #4B. it's a back-up to my Makarov and Camp Carbine if needed.
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Old December 8, 2008, 06:27 PM   #53
mikejonestkd
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Take a look at this testing done with various loads:


http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/ballistics_shotgun.html

#4 penetrated 14-15.5" depending on the brand of ammo used.

00 buck averaged around 19-20" or so.

Both would be sufficient in close quarters, like most houses.
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Old December 8, 2008, 06:53 PM   #54
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Choke has no effect on pattern with FC. The wad leaves the muzzle with pellets in tact, before the "fins" at the rear open up to release the shot. A different concept than the standard plastic wad with petals that fold back from the front as soon as they hit the air. Just dissect one, and you'll see how they work.
Very interesting. Any links? When I google it, I find mention of it in several forums but nothing from Federal.
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Old December 8, 2008, 06:56 PM   #55
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Home Load

I have done a lot of research and also actual shot pattern testing on the different loads. The birdshot is exactly what it should be used for , birds, and would be unsatisfactory for HD. I load my good ole Mossberg 20" 12 gauge Cruiser with first BB followed by six 00 buck followed by a rifled slug.
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Old December 8, 2008, 07:08 PM   #56
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there are way to many variables to be able predict what would happen in a home invasion...here is what i would do, measure the greatest distance in your house... 20 to 40 feet(unless u r rich) which is approx 7 to 14 yrds... pick a round any round and "practice" with it...if you hit center mass or head shot anything from a 12 guage at this distance the 12 ga will prevail and if for some freak circumstance it doesnt-- hit it again! this is why "practice" rules!
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Old December 8, 2008, 08:14 PM   #57
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Very interesting. Any links? When I google it, I find mention of it in several forums but nothing from Federal.
Just Google up Federal FliteControl wad, and take your pick.
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Old December 9, 2008, 01:12 AM   #58
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"That is exactly what I have in mine... #4"
Same here. At the usual HD distance (~10yds max), anything out of a 12-gauge will do.
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Old December 9, 2008, 09:19 PM   #59
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Same here. At the usual HD distance (~10yds max), anything out of a 12-gauge will do.
Except if Bubba is hiding behind something--like a couch.

I've seen most of a charge of #4 buck glance off 1/4" plywood without penetration at a 90 deg. angle.

Then again, the purpose of going to smaller shot in doors is to reduce penetration for the safety of innocents. Shot size decreases, so does effectiveness under certain (but not all) circumstances. I say weigh in the factors.
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Old December 9, 2008, 10:17 PM   #60
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when bubba is hiding behind a couch that means he knows you have a 12 ga... you take control since you have experience and have "trained"
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Old December 9, 2008, 10:23 PM   #61
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It's at LONG distance where the extra shot extends the range by increasing pattern density. Not in HD where quick followup shots can be MUCH more important than hitting Bubba with three times as much ordnace as needed, and maybe his friends not at all because you're still recovering from recoil.
My practice comes from living in the country, where the burglar gun and the coyote-across-the-fence gun tend to be the same. Thus, the first shot is #4 for pellet count, followed by three 2.75" 00 or 000, and one 3.5" 00. As for recoil recovery, I've rapid-fired everything I use except the 3.5" 00 magnum 18-pellet load. It stays last, but it stays in because I really liked what I saw when I tried it on a plate rack. (I jerked it a bit low, missed the plates and knocked the rack back a couple feet, causing all 6 plates to surrender - I'm pretty sure that'll stop anything that finds its way to my door.)
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Old December 9, 2008, 10:48 PM   #62
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Just a couple of days ago I experimented at the range, sending 8 shells of 12 gage Rem 3" magnum #4 shot to a paper target 25 yds.

I then did the same with standard load (federal) 2 3/4" 00 buck. Looking at them both side by side I'd say the first guy was pretty torn up, definitely stopped, and probably made it.

The second guy definitely didn't make it.

That said, the #4 magnum load was much more fun as it kicked like crazy, shot fire out the muzzle, and produced a very big bang sound. :-)

/*tom*/
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Old December 10, 2008, 12:12 AM   #63
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#4 Buck

I'm sure I'll upset a lot of "experts" but both at home and ON DUTY I carry #4 Buckshot.

My biggest fear is not under penetration but over penetration.

Remember, you OWN all of those pellets whether they hit an attacker or miss and hit your neighbor. Good luck trying to justify killing your neighbor because you also shot your attacker.

Many years ago a friend and I in college did informal, non-scientific testing of various sizes of shotgun pellets. We tested against samples of "typical home wall construction" , 2"x4" frames with thin drywall on both sides and insulation in the middle. We even tried duplicating typical mobile home construction with 2"x4" frames covered with just paneling on one side and thin aluminum on the other with old insulation in between.

The idea of our testing was to find pellet sizes that would not penetrate totally but if it did there it would not have much energy/penetrating power left. We had another frame behind the frame we were shooting at to measure this.

What we wanted was a pellet size that would be fully contained by normal home construction.

Our testing led us to our adoption of #4 buck.


Although our testing was not "scientific" and was done many years ago, not long ago I read about a PD doing tests of the "optimum" shot size. They did similar tests to us and in similar ways! But, they used many different types of construction including typical inside wall, different types of doors and single and multi-pane windows.

Their extensive and much more thorough testing came to the same conclusion as us for OUR uses. For THEIR use they determined that #4 buck provide the best combination of penetration without excessive over penetration.

C.

Last edited by 73-Captain; December 10, 2008 at 12:17 AM.
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Old December 10, 2008, 12:59 AM   #64
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I get flamed every time I post what my HD round is. I use 12 guage Remington Turkey loads. These are the 1 3/4 ounce of copper plated # 4 BIRD shot doing 1300 fps.
I am in a situation where overpenetration is just not allowable therefore I have to choose my loads carefully. True, I would "prefer" buckshot, it just isn't an option in my case.
I also don't think for a second, not even a half second any bad boy is going to catch almost 2 ounces of #4 plated shot in the chest and want to argue with me. If the simple "trauma" of this load to his body didn't stop the attack instantly, well my Berreta 390 has more left to spare. Ya, I know, it ain't a pump either.
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Old December 10, 2008, 02:51 AM   #65
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At seven to ten yds, which is the typical "defense encounter" distance, I'd be fine with 8 birdshot in a 12 gauge. UPLAND game load, none of these "trap loads."

Shoot some like birdshot into a sheet of plywood at 7 paces (20 ft) and have a look see at the hole it makes. Big enough to put your fist through and not mess up your manicure.

I went to #1 Buck after realizing that I get nearly twice the pellets in the load and the difference in diameter is 0.03" --

Still looking for 3 1/2" 12 gauge loads in buckshot. It's all steel shot for geese.
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Old December 10, 2008, 04:44 PM   #66
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Remember, you OWN all of those pellets....

+1 73-Captain...i have been reading posts on HD shot loads for some time now, always seems like hollywood creeps into the minds of people when HD is up for talk... if you take a round from any 12ga at any normal HD distance in the upper torso area you "will" stop what you are doing, if you are "lucky" you might survive...that is what "defense" means? when does it become offense....
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Old December 10, 2008, 05:48 PM   #67
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when bubba is hiding behind a couch that means he knows you have a 12 ga... you take control since you have experience and have "trained"
Right. If Bubba knew you had a pistol, he'd be out in the open. He'd figure "what's the use, couch offers no cover anyway from a real bullet".


Trained? Take charge? I think 00 buck that would defeat his cover would be how to take charge.

How did you mean?
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Old December 10, 2008, 06:14 PM   #68
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Quote:
Your right #4 bird shot is .17 I believe.

Quote:
rantingredneck
Negative. .24 is #4 Buck,
Nope birdshot .13 I knew it was something close to that anyway as for Buckshot yes its .24 you mixed up birdshot with buckshot
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Old December 10, 2008, 06:44 PM   #69
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Yeah I figured that out later. Sorry.
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Old December 10, 2008, 07:24 PM   #70
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Thats OK I butchered the pellet size estimate.
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Old December 10, 2008, 09:35 PM   #71
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Oh, for what it's worth, the only two guys I have seen shot with BB were a little irritated. One as shot at approx 10 to twelve yards and he walked over a mile to be treated at at local hospital (husband with no sense of humor over a peeping tom).

Another, shot at about the same distance, went into a diner, sat down and waited for a ambulance to treat him. I sat a talked with him while he waited.

Of the two one was treated and went home and the other was treated and release, but suffered some minor nerve damage in his right arm.

Both of these guys were big boys (seriously big), and not fat, all muscle.

I spent time with both these guys as I investigated the shootings and I was pretty impressed with their condition considering what they were shot with, ...lots of holes but didn't really slow or stop them.

Based on my limited exposure, I might (read might) consider such ammo if I expected point blank or very close to that but with very much increase in distance, ....I am using something else.

Course, there are lots of variables but, really, I was surprised at what the shootings didn't do, rather than what the bb shot did.

Think I will stick with a minimum of #1 buck, and gel tests seem to support that such is a pretty good idea.

My personal preference, 8 or ten pellet 000, seconded by 9 or 12 pellet 00.

Paul
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Old December 10, 2008, 10:17 PM   #72
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Interesting........

Steel BB or lead BB?

Any thoughts on steel vs. lead and density/penetration depth differences?
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Old December 10, 2008, 10:48 PM   #73
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Couple things......

Quote:
.i have been reading posts on HD shot loads for some time now, always seems like hollywood creeps into the minds of people when HD is up for talk... if you take a round from any 12ga at any normal HD distance in the upper torso area you "will" stop what you are doing, if you are "lucky" you might survive...that is what "defense" means? when does it become offense....


Normal HD distance is just that. Normal. Forgive me if I digress a bit, but any discussion of normal begs a definition of what normal means. A Bell Curve.

In terms of HD you'll have most incidents falling in the middle of that curve. Then you have the outliers. If you prepare for normal you ignore the outliers. It's the outliers that might get you killed when you prepare for normal. I'm not talking about preparing for "zombies", but what happens when you have someone at distance shooting at or into your house? It's a definite outlier. And a situation for which smaller shot from a shotgun is next to useless. Your house is likely to not be terribly bullet proof either. Just a thought....

Quote:
Remember, you OWN all of those pellets whether they hit an attacker or miss and hit your neighbor. Good luck trying to justify killing your neighbor because you also shot your attacker.
That is one of the very things that went through my head when I was testing #4's and deciding against them. The patterns from my guns were so blown that I had a hard time thinking about where the pellets that missed the bad guy would go. Also got to thinking about having to account for 27 pellets vs. 8 or 9 in the 00 loads I prefer.

As I said in an earlier post, I don't worry overmuch about overpenetration given the layout of my home and property. BUT....... as I just said above preparing for "normal" isn't the greatest idea either. I may be called upon to use my weapon in a field of fire that isn't what I'm exactly expecting. Given that I prefer a tight pattern with fewer pellets to have to account for.

Just different thinking on the circumstances is all. Not saying either is right or wrong necessarily.

When it comes down to it, weapon and ammo choices (whether it's for your home defense shotgun, your deer gun, or your CCW pistol) is a game of compromises. There's no perfect answer or we'd all be using the same thing.
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Old December 10, 2008, 10:56 PM   #74
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no, unless it was all i had. but having said that. it is not all i have.
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Old December 10, 2008, 11:00 PM   #75
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It's the outliers that might get you killed when you prepare for normal. I'm not talking about preparing for "zombies", but what happens when you have someone at distance shooting at or into your house? It's a definite outlier. And a situation for which smaller shot from a shotgun is next to useless
I guess that is when I reach for the rifle. When "normal" becomes abnormal, abnormal becomes normal- as a counter response.
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