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Old December 7, 2008, 09:38 AM   #26
KD5NRH
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Does anybody make a 3.5" standard velocity (i.e. not magnum, just more pellets) #4 load? I might as well take advantage of the long chamber in the 835, and while the 3.5" 18-pellet 00 loads are fine for me, my wife isn't going to be able to fire a second shot if I have one of those up front.
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Old December 7, 2008, 10:46 AM   #27
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Only an ignorant fool uses buckshot, I always say.
Quite the analysis there.

This particular ignorant fool favors 00 buckshot in a 3" magnum 12 gauge chambering. Better than #4 shot? Dunno, as I've had the good fortune never to have been struck by either. But it helps me sleep at night, and when all's said and done, that's what home defense loads are all about.
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Old December 7, 2008, 11:24 AM   #28
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If Gunsite is now advocating the use of birdshot for defensive shotguns, then Louis Awerbuck must have stopped teaching shotgun at that school.

When I took Gunsite's 260 (Shotgun) with Louis Awerbuck as the rangemaster, he didn't trust buckshot. He carried his shotgun loaded with slugs. He was a BIG believer in Murphy's law.
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Old December 7, 2008, 11:25 AM   #29
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I was involved in a homicide investigation where the victom (large dude) was shoot across the bar room (about 50 ft) with a load of #4 buck shot. I also attended the autopsy.

Yeap I'd trust one.
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Old December 7, 2008, 11:30 AM   #30
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Trust is a relative term! If all I had was a garden rake in my bedroom I would trust my life to it before getting on my knees to take a shot to the back of the head! I cannot say I TRUST any firearm of any caliber/gauge with any type projectile... It is my mind and my mindset and the following motions my body parts take in following orders from my brain that I trust. I am ready to use my firearms but always aware they may not function as planned since they are but mere inventions of moving parts. That said I prefer 00 but if all I had was 7 1/2 or even a .22lr that is what I will use.
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Old December 7, 2008, 03:16 PM   #31
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Quote:
Only an ignorant fool uses buckshot, I always say.
Tell you what- get one of your mates to shoot you centre of mass with #4 buckshot, and let us know how you get on.
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Old December 7, 2008, 03:28 PM   #32
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Quote:
3.5" standard velocity
"Magnum" in shotgun shells is deceptive. Not extra velocity. Just more lead (typically at lower velocity even). It's the extra lead that produces the extra felt recoil.

To the original question. Yes I'd trust #4 buckshot at inside the house distances. Trouble is, I've never found a #4 load that remotely approaches the pattern performance of the 00 loads I prefer. So, in my particular circumstance #4 compromises some longer distance performance with no upside for me.
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Old December 7, 2008, 08:46 PM   #33
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Quote:
Quote:
Now Gunsite is saying almost the same thing,

Link?
Only an ignorant fool uses buckshot, I always say.
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Old December 7, 2008, 09:17 PM   #34
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Here is a video thats VERY informative but a little long.
#4 Buck is .17 so its very close to a .22 bullet but you will be sending over twenty .22's all at one time.

Shotgun Ammunition: 'Rounds of Authority'
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Old December 7, 2008, 09:34 PM   #35
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Vince, I do believe #4 buckshot is .24 caliber, not .17 caliber.
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Old December 7, 2008, 09:37 PM   #36
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Indeed ^
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Old December 7, 2008, 09:54 PM   #37
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Good video.
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Old December 7, 2008, 10:01 PM   #38
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Yes
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Old December 7, 2008, 10:49 PM   #39
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Posted By KD5NRH
Quote:
Does anybody make a 3.5" standard velocity (i.e. not magnum, just more pellets) #4 load?
Here you go - but don't expect your wife to soot more than one.

Winchester XB12L4
Shot Category - Buckshot
Gauge - 12
Length (in.) - 3-1/2
Velocity fps @ 3 ft. - 1050
# Pellets - 54
Shot Size - #4 Buck
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Old December 8, 2008, 02:37 AM   #40
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Quote:
Velocity fps @ 3 ft. - 1050
# Pellets - 54
Shot Size - #4 Buck
Thanks...54 pellets sounds like a really effective defense round. I'll have to add some to my next order from any of the places that carry it.
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Old December 8, 2008, 03:19 AM   #41
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Yeah, I screwed that up. Meant to say birdshot....

Loses it's sarcastic punch when my fingers don't work.
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Old December 8, 2008, 03:22 AM   #42
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Quote:
"Magnum" in shotgun shells is deceptive. Not extra velocity. Just more lead (typically at lower velocity even). It's the extra lead that produces the extra felt recoil.
That woud be nice. Reduced recoil (equals reduced velocity) would be nice also in something other than OO buck or slugs.

Quote:
To the original question. Yes I'd trust #4 buckshot at inside the house distances. Trouble is, I've never found a #4 load that remotely approaches the pattern performance of the 00 loads I prefer.
What do you mean specifically? You seem to have a good handle on this, so I'd like to know what parameters you were using and perhaps why. I hate to admit I haven't patterned my home shotguns. Note to self...

Quote:
So, in my particular circumstance #4 compromises some longer distance performance with no upside for me.
Better target coverage? Especially important if you are only getting, say a shoulder, arm (with gun of course) and part of a head presented? Less chance of overpenetration? Still getting 15" of ball. gello penetration at across the room distance, so good enough but not as much over penetration?

Just brainstorming there. I'm on the fence between 4 Buck and OO Buck (reduced recoil, which I have a pretty good supply).
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Old December 8, 2008, 03:47 AM   #43
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Does anybody make a 3.5" standard velocity (i.e. not magnum, just more pellets) #4 load? I might as well take advantage of the long chamber in the 835, and while the 3.5" 18-pellet 00 loads are fine for me, my wife isn't going to be able to fire a second shot if I have one of those up front.
As Clint Smith would say (and often does), Wolves sometimes travel in packs. LE has found that the low recoil Tactical 00 buck gives up nothing stopping power wise, and allows for quick follow-up shots.

Fed's Tactical (low recoil) with FliteControl wad produces 1 hole at 10 yds, a 4" pattern at 15yds, and a 7" pattern at 25 yds. It's also available in #4buck if one must have it. That's from my Scattergun Tech cyl. bore. Hornady TAP uses the same wad, but uses lead instead of plated shot like Federal.

Basic Buck Shot 101:

It's at LONG distance where the extra shot extends the range by increasing pattern density. Not in HD where quick followup shots can be MUCH more important than hitting Bubba with three times as much ordnace as needed, and maybe his friends not at all because you're still recovering from recoil.
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Old December 8, 2008, 08:18 AM   #44
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What do you mean specifically? You seem to have a good handle on this, so I'd like to know what parameters you were using and perhaps why. I hate to admit I haven't patterned my home shotguns. Note to self...
Going off the advice of some gentlemen more seasoned and experienced in shotgunnery than me, I like a 25 yd pattern about the size of a sheet of notebook paper.

Remington Managed Recoil 00, Remington Express (standard 9 pellet load) of 00 both do this well out of my guns, but Federal LE 127 00 does this in spades. I haven't tried many #4 loads, but the ones I have patterned, the pattern gets very wide very fast. By 10-15 yds the pattern is well off the paper.

Quote:
Better target coverage? Especially important if you are only getting, say a shoulder, arm (with gun of course) and part of a head presented? Less chance of overpenetration? Still getting 15" of ball. gello penetration at across the room distance, so good enough but not as much over penetration?
I don't particularly worry about over-penetration. Inside my house I'm not shooting toward my kids bedrooms with anything even if it were birdshot. Anything that can penetrate people can penetrate drywall and then people. It's not an easy problem to overcome by switching ammo. The good news is my house is laid out in such a way that I'll not likely be placed in a situation where the badguy is between me and my kids. I also don't have to worry overmuch about neighbor's houses. If I have to shoot straight down my hallway though, my plasma TV and my truck are likely both toast .

As to better target coverage, If only a shoulder or arm are presented it will be nigh shredded with a fist size pattern of 00 buckshot. The #4's I've tried spread too fast for my liking.

Everyone's situation and needs are different. 00 works for me out of my guns in my house/on my property. I've also killed quite a few deer and coyotes with 00 buck and have seen firsthand the performance on flesh. I've never had the opportunity to do the same with #4's.

Presently the bandoliers and shell belts around here are loaded with Remington 00. The HD shotguns in question are loaded with the Federal Flite control 00 though. The bandoliers have been full of the Remington stuff for awhile and I haven't rotated it through. I have no doubt it will work if called upon.

I've really come to like the Federal flite control shells. I've got about 350 rounds of the standard 127 00 (2 3/4" standard load). Remains of the last case I bought plus one that just arrived last week (ammunitiontogo.com). I've also started buying the 3" loads for deer. Killed one a couple weeks ago with it at 40 yds. Dropped in his tracks with his neck and shoulder full of buckshot
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Old December 8, 2008, 08:20 AM   #45
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Re Maggie Numb loads for HD and CD.....

Even the little 410 has more ME than 230 gr 45 ACP. Shotguns have oodles of energy to dump into a target. That's why they're so awesomely effective.

The trouble with small shot is they lose that energy faster than bigger ones, all else equal.

The very old round ball load for the 28 gauge ( around .55 caliber, fired at a MV of around 1500 FPS) may be a superb defense load. Since they stopped making it, it's hard to prove either way.

8 pellet,lowered velocity 00 loads seem to be just as effective as 15 pellet 00 loads and are A, easier on us and B, easier to recover from if there's need for more than one shot.

Feel free to test this. Fire off one round of 12 gauge, 1 oz, 2 3/4 dram or 1145 FPS birdshot, then a turkey round. Something like 1 5/8 oz will do. Back each round up with a similar one.

Fire away, having your bud time the split time, that between the first and second shot. Betcha there's a difference that may, Heaven forbid, make a crisis into a tragedy.

Re smaller buck, if you can find a load that your shotguns like, go for it. 1 buck may be the point where the lines of the graph cross for pellets count and retained energy. But, I've yet to find a load that has no flyers. 00, old Estate Buck among others keeps them all in the pattern.

BTW, my test shotguns have long cones and for most, choke selection for that load of Estate.

The Federal load of 4s I use is a 20 yard load for me. In actual use, given where the weapon is posted, shots opps are more like 3-5 yards.

Of course, your results may vary. Do us all a favor and actually test loads to find the one that best meets your criteria.....
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Old December 8, 2008, 02:08 PM   #46
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Vince, I do believe #4 buckshot is .24 caliber, not .17 caliber.
Your right #4 bird shot is .17 I believe.
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Old December 8, 2008, 02:18 PM   #47
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Your right #4 bird shot is .17 I believe.
Negative.

.24 is #4 Buck,

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm
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Old December 8, 2008, 03:49 PM   #48
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#4 Birdshot is .13". If you're looking for .17, it's B.

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Old December 8, 2008, 04:37 PM   #49
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Going off the advice of some gentlemen more seasoned and experienced in shotgunnery than me, I like a 25 yd pattern about the size of a sheet of notebook paper.
Don't know that such patterns existed in defensive buckshot loads (I like his thinking)---until Federal started incorporating the FliteControl wad into their Tactical line--such as LE 127 00, as you mentioned.

Choke has no effect on pattern with FC. The wad leaves the muzzle with pellets in tact, before the "fins" at the rear open up to release the shot. A different concept than the standard plastic wad with petals that fold back from the front as soon as they hit the air. Just dissect one, and you'll see how they work.

I'm very much in favor of patterning shotguns with various loads because the shotgun isn't just for HD in my book. At close indoor (same room) ranges, there isn't any pattern with any load.

As Dave mentioned, low recoil LE ammo works very well on the street. 9 pellets of 00 produces fewer potentially lethal (to innocents) flyers, and follow up shots are much easier. The recoil is about like a skeet load. The ammo was developed to extend the range of all those LE cyl. bores out there that saw the pattern thin out at 15 to 20 yds. with Tactical ammo. Standard full power loads were even worse at blowing out patterns. No more.

Note: While Hornady TAP uses the same wad and produces very tight patterns, the shot is lead rather than plated like Federal. When testing TAP, some of the shot didn't release and wad and shot hit the target together. It happened about 1 out of 5, and only with cyl. bore. Didn't happen with IC. choke. I suspect the lead shot played apart, as well as the "back pressure" being more in the IC. I'm guessing.

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Old December 8, 2008, 04:49 PM   #50
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I would trust #4 . I have shot and killed many running deer with #4 buckshot. most of the deer 120lbs. + and capable of running on pure adrenaline with their heart blown out. for deer i use 3" mag with 41 - .24 cal pellets and for hd 2-3/4 with 27- .24 cal pellets.
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