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Old December 6, 2008, 09:57 AM   #51
kyle1974
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>>>ThreeStepsAhead
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Posts: 112 I didn't say it was an awful system, the system gets gunky! The more gunk has always directly equated into less reliability.

I'd rather have a mini for target shooting. <<<

since you'd rather shoot the mini 14 for targets...you wanna shoot some targets for cash?

I've only had one mini14, and for shooting the broad side of barns, it was a good little gun and never jammed on me. Now, if you wanted to shoot something else,...say a rabbit at 100 yards, different story.

I have never personally witnessed a mini 14 that shot well.

I have seen numerous AR15 variants that will shoot well under MOA

I suppose the other option, if you're looking for a gun in the $750-$900 range is to buy one of these GREAT DEALS on a chinese AK47, mak90 or SKS with a laser light duct taped to the stock, that seem to be coming out of the woodwork for some reason....
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Old December 6, 2008, 10:18 AM   #52
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I think this one just might reach your 'minute of wabbit' criteria, without modification, etc.



The Mini is what it is; a decent rendition of the M14 in a lightweight caliber, for those who prefer the ergos, etc. of that system. The 580+ Minis are indeed more accurate than they used to be. As an LE trainer I have spent some time at the bench zeroing various dept-owned M4gerys, etc. I don't think you'll see much difference in the accuracy of the improved Mini and your basic AR.

A HBAR or match built AR will give many bolt actions a run for their money, which means they'll outshoot the Mini. It's all a matter of 'what turns your crank' vs 'what you want to spend', vs 'what you're tying to accomplish'. If cheap mags and bolt-ons are your bag, by all means get an AR. If you like blue steel, wood and 'real rifle' handling, a 580 Mini and 20 round ProMags will do about anything you need to try with a 5.56 mm.

They're both good rifles. The above Mini goes in my unmarked car every day and out to 250 yards, I don't feel undergunned in the least. If they hand me an AR one of these days, I won't cry. I'll prove it and zero it and feel pretty well armed....or at least as well armed as you can be this side of a .308
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Last edited by Sarge; December 6, 2008 at 03:36 PM. Reason: de gramma
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Old December 6, 2008, 10:33 AM   #53
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Did someone reply that you can put a 50 BMG upper on an AR15 5.56/.223 and have the gun function? Aren't the magazines quite a bit different in size? I had thought of swappin' out the upper on my AR to handle .308 but the dealer kinda laughed (not too hard cuz he knew I was a noob to AR's) and told me that it was not possible to swap and I would need to buy an AR chambered in .308 or any other calibre that I was interested in. Any thoughts?
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Old December 6, 2008, 10:54 AM   #54
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there are 50 BMG uppers for the Ar15. They are however only single shot models,and no, the Semi function will not work. It is basically just a platform to hold the upper and barrel. heres one http://www.ferret50.com/ferret50_conversion.html
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Old December 6, 2008, 02:02 PM   #55
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Old December 7, 2008, 01:29 AM   #56
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Mini14 groups worst a .223 saiga(AK) just bought 2 saigas for $350 each
you can get 2 AKs for the price of 1 new Mini14 or 30

get a AR15 with a heavy barrel for target shooting
the best thing is you can have a 20in and a 16in upper for the same lower and switch back and forth in seconds

the cheapest AR15 ive seen is $699
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Old December 7, 2008, 01:52 AM   #57
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I'm another who has had both and prefers the AR. The Mini was good for about 3" groups at 100 yards mostly, the AR under an inch all day long.
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Old December 7, 2008, 03:32 AM   #58
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I have a mini and it prints patterns like in the paper plate pic while my AR will put them in well under a dime at 100yds...pretty much the mini shoots worse than my AK-74 clone job.
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Old December 7, 2008, 05:41 AM   #59
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This thread has more doo doo in it than I've seen in a long time.

First let me address the Mini 14 vs AR for target shooting, not much of a contest here, given two shooters of fairly equal ability, the one with the AR will eat the other alive.

Quote:
Mini-14. After about 100 rounds the AR-15 will gunk up and stuff.

Good luck-
I realize this post was addressed by several members, but come on where did you come up with this?

Here is a good post on Maryland AR15 Shooters Site...

AR-15 Reliability
By Troy (forum moderator at AR15.com)

My BM (Bushmaster) M4 is up to 7000 rounds with no cleaning, just a shot of CLP before heading out to the range. It is truly filthy, but it runs along fine. My only stoppages happened when trying out a brass catcher, where brass would occasionally bounce back into the action.


The last time I fired my AR I shot a 200 round mega pack of Remington UMC 55 gr FMJ. I cleaned it when I got home, but it wasn't really that dirty. I had no stoppages due to it being over 'gunked'. My AR is a low priced DPMS as well, not even close to the same quality of a Colt, CMMG, etc and it has never malfunctioned.


As far as some of the other posts regarding mud, sand etc turning the AR into a single shot go. I'm sure that is why our military has kept it all these years, because when any adverse conditions occur it fails.

I was in the US Army and was issued an M16A1, I never had a problem with it. None of the ones I was issued malfunctioned either, I'm not saying they never will, only that mine didn't. That includes using it in adverse conditions and many hundreds of rounds of full auto fire.

I've previously owned one Mini-14 and I now own a Mini-30. They are and were OK, but they are not as good a target or combat weapon as the AR period.
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Old December 7, 2008, 09:58 AM   #60
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None of the above...

Saiga makes a .223. For the price of a Mini you can get the .223 and the 7.62x39 Saigas (that's two guns for the price of one).

Compare the three guns together:

Reliability: 1) Saiga 2) AR 3) Mini
Accuracy: 1) AR 2) Saiga 3) Mini
Cool look: 1) AR 2) Saiga 3) Mini
Popularity: 1) Siaga 2) AR 3) Mini

The fact that I could get both Saigas for the price of a bottom-of-the-barrel AR tipped the scales for me. The Mini was never even in the discussion, IMO.
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Old December 7, 2008, 10:16 AM   #61
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AR boys,

I have posted a couple of 3-shot, 200 yard groups fired with a 580 Mini.

Let's see yours.
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Old December 7, 2008, 10:45 AM   #62
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Robc, the Siaga more popular than the AR? You must be high! I haven't seen sales numbers but I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the AR is probably the most popular semi-auto sold today. Well, maybe the 10/22 would be in the same leauge but the Siaga is nowhere near the level of popularity that the AR is.
Now as far as the Mini goes, I got an older one that actually does a fairly respectable job in the accuracy department. Of course the first thing I did when I bought it was to get rid of the stock front sight (who thought the idea of a rounded front sight blade would give a good sight picture in the first place? ) and installed a Choate M-14 style flash suppressor/front sight combo. Made a MAJOR improvement in the sight picture and my accuracy improved. Managed to bring it up to my AR-15A1 level of accuracy. However, it still does not compare to the accuracy I get out of my AR-15A2 and likely never will. It's just not made for precise accuracy. Minute of coyote, maybe but target, not hardly. Yes, the new target model Minis are doing better in the accuracy department but if you are going to use this as a standard of Mini accuracy, then the AR standard of accuracy can be measured by the match grade rifles, right? Again, the Mini isn't going to measure up to the AR, apples to apples, oranges to oranges.
The AR is also not as dirt unfriendly as it has been made out to be over the years. In the early days, troops were told the rifle was self-cleaning, issued no cleaning kits and the changes to the powder combined with corroded chambers in the humidity of SEA did give it what at that time was an accurate damnation of being unreliable. However, with proper and timely cleaning procedures as well as chrome chambers, those problems are pretty much a thing of the past. I used an A2 when I was in the Marines including time in Kuwait during Gulf War I without any problems and today bouncing around the deserts of Afghanistan with an M-4 carbine, I still don't have any problems with a weapon failing to fire. When the wife came back from her first deployment to Balad a couple years ago, we went to Shootrite Firearms Accademy with our M-4geries and after firing about 3k rounds between us over 3 days, the only problem we had was I had problems with manually extracting a round out of the chamber when I was using a McFarland gas ring. Too tight and getting fouled was the trouble but swapping out the rings back over to the stock 3-piece gas rings after the first day cured that problem.
That brings me to my next criticism of the Mini which has already been voiced here is the spare parts issue. I can get any spare part for an AR as simple as going to my spare parts box because I can stock up on parts from a variety of vendors. If my Mini breaks down, it's back to Ruger as they won't sell spare parts to anyone including armorers, gunsmiths or dealers.
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Old December 7, 2008, 01:30 PM   #63
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Sarge,

Did you fire that benchrest? Scope? Any wind? Handloads or match or what kind of ammo?

I figure if I will do my own shooting to post, need to know what all you used exactly.
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Old December 7, 2008, 02:53 PM   #64
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Siaga is a cheap AK. There are more AKs in the world than there are ARs by about a jillion. Sorry I wasn't specific enough for you to understand, Grunt.
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Old December 7, 2008, 02:55 PM   #65
Bartholomew Roberts
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Quote:
I have posted a couple of 3-shot, 200 yard groups fired with a 580 Mini.

Let's see yours.
Don't have any 200yd pictures; but here is a picture of a 5rd group from 100yds that I shot with my AR off the bench using a Grippod and rifle case for support. The sights were a 3.5x ACOG with donut reticle, stock AR15 trigger, stainless 1:8 match barrel and factory loaded Black Hills 75gr Moly. Those grids represent 1"



Sorry no 3 round groups either, I typically don't use those because of this phenomenon.
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Old December 7, 2008, 07:16 PM   #66
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Sarge, that is typical or my AR15 as well. I can shoot a 10 round group that looks like a 45 caliber hole. as the barrel heats up, itll string off to the right. At 100 yards this

Is a typical group from mine. Note, this is a 10 shot group. as it heats up, it wanders right and up.
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Old December 7, 2008, 07:26 PM   #67
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Deaf,

I was shooting over a range bag on a folding table. The load was the first one I tried, which was 25.7 grains of H4895 under Sierra's 52 grain HP, in Lake City brass. I originally thought they were 55's, until I weighed a couple...egg on my face. It was a little breezy but I tried to shoot when the wind would lay for a moment. The scope was an old, battered Bushnell 4X that has kinda been out 'extra' hunting scope for the past 5 years or so. It's not great but it does hold zero.

Bart- that's a good shooting AR you have there. I'll give you the flier and say your gun in running about .75 MOA with that load. Don't believe my 580 will do that, but I haven't tried any heavy bullets yet either.

If I came across as being a wiseass with my 'post your groups' comment, that was not my intent. I see a lot of "X is more accurate than Y" in on the various gun forums, with little in the way of actual shooting to decide. So I am looking forward to more of this, secure in the knowledge that there are better shooting rifles than my Mini- and better shooters than me.

Armed- just caught your post. Fine shooting there.
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Old December 7, 2008, 07:52 PM   #68
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Thanks.. Those are 55 Grain H Vmaxs, using 25.7 Gr H335. Not bad for a non floated upper if i do say so myself. Your pattern with a Mini is way bettern most ive seen esp at that range. Our range has a 200 yard hump and clump of trees , so im limited to 100 and 400 yards
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Old December 7, 2008, 09:04 PM   #69
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Looks like you win Sarge

I went out to the range and practiced a little one handed threat focused shooting with my .45, then I moved my target stand out to 100 Meters and fired this 6.5 inch, 28 round group, with Remington UMC ammo and a DPMS AR. I did it standing up, leaning against the range shelter 4x4" post. I don't have a scope or an optics device on my AR though, only peep sights.



I forgot to mention that the shots were all fired at a fairly rapid pace, 1 to 1.5 seconds between shots.
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Old December 7, 2008, 10:25 PM   #70
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Don't know that I could beat that from 'barricade-right', Nate. From a good solid rest, I can usually herd 3-5 shots into 4" @ 200 using the stock irons on my 580. I do know I've had a ton of fun 'splodin water-filled gallon jugs and detergent bottles, at a shade past 200 yards.

I can't do either w/o my glasses, though.
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Old December 7, 2008, 11:48 PM   #71
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Tough call, have a Mini, not that I don't love the ARs (several shooting buddies have them). Got the Mini years ago, love it, not super accurate. You can't find factory 30 rounders easy, but I have several after market 30 rounders and 40 rounders that i have picked up at shows that work just as good. ARs and Minis are nice but it you have the money go with the M1A.
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Old December 9, 2008, 01:44 PM   #72
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If reloading is in your future, or anyone elses for that matter depending on how things go in the HOUSE, from what I have seen, Minis are the ANTICHRIST for brass., IF you can find it after shooting.
ARs dont usually tear up brass.
ARs are WAY more accurate
ARs are way more upgradable
Ars are way more easier to find replacement parts for
ARs are way way more scarier to "the Bad people in the Government"
AR mags are Way easier to find, and way way cheaper.
Ars are way easier to change to a new caliber.
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Old December 9, 2008, 01:55 PM   #73
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I am a big fan of the M1/M14. I love my M1A, even acknowledging its faults and the fact that it is not technically an M14. Cast receiver and all, it shoots as good as I need it to, is reliable, and overall, just a sweet shooter. That said, I refuse to acknowledge the Mini-14 is in any way related to the M14. The gas system is different, the sights aren't as good, and for whatever reason, Ruger never took the time to get the reliability nor the accuracy of the larger M14 in his commercial abomination of a rifle. It is apparent the late Bill Ruger cared little for the semi-auto and its application to the civilian world, because besides the difficulty obtaining factory 20 round magazines, the Mini-14 isn't designed or built with even the care and quality Springfield is capable of putting into their commercial M14 clones. So I say if you want to dive into the platform, more power to you, but I suggest you cough up the dough for an actual M1A. It would be a sweet Appleseed rifle--some might even say--the Appleseed rifle.

Otherwise, and I can't believe I am saying this, but I'd get an AR-15 of the two suggested. My experience with the AR-15 suggests it will be every bit as reliable as Ruger's bastard rifle and many times more accurate, as well as being easier to find magazines, parts, accessories, and quality service for.
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Old December 9, 2008, 04:10 PM   #74
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Jynx92,

Have both, and without hesitation, an AR-15 is your best bet.

I've purchased used too, an would suggest an well regarded civilian manufacture to keep costs reasonable, these should have a chrome lined barrel, and would think a flat top or one with a removable carry handle would better since it sounds like a scope will be necessary for accurate long range shots advocated by the appleseed website.

ARs initially higher price is offset by the cost and availability of magazines, numerous standardized accessories, and most importantly, the out of the box accuracy.

Most mini-14s are very effected by barrel heat (rapid fire), and are probably fine for much shorter ranges than your website is proposing.
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Old December 9, 2008, 07:53 PM   #75
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Ruger Mini 14 Ranch Rifle vs AR 15

Go for the AR platform. The Ruger Mini is not usually accurate. The AR is more easily cleaned (from the chamber end), and is more tolerant of different powder speeds.

Having wrote this, I admit that I hated the M-16 in Vietnam. My unit used M-14's right up until February,1970, when we switched to the varmint caliber M-16. (1099th Medium Boat Company).

With the numerous manufacturers making AR clones, you can buy just about any variant you want. Personnally, I would get one with a heavy barrel, with a fast enough rifling twist to shoot 69 grain Sierra Match King bullets....maybe 1:7 twist.
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